Fuel polishing during layup periods.

[RickB]

Delfin wrote:is it your position that removing the natural asphaltene precipitates in diesel that occur without heat has no value?

I shouldn't be surprised that you are, once again, uninformed, but convinced in your opinions.

Since you don't own a boat, perhaps this isn't important to you Rick.* To others who do, it is.


I am sure than none of the boats that are owned by the people who hire you would have such systems against your advice.

I believe that attempting to remove the naturally occuring but stable asphaltenes is a waste of time and money. Installing a special system to do so might be fun and provide bragging rights at the yacht club bar and impress the uninformed but does it extend the life of your fuel? Not by enought to justify the complexity, fire hazard, and maintenance costs. Don't buy more fuel than you are willing to keep for however long you are comfortable storing it.

Like many of your attempts to discredit me, Delfin, you don't have a clue what you are talking about and surely don't know anything about me personally. If you can't discuss these issues in a civil manner then please, just go away.

First, I do own a boat, a 48 twin engine foot trawler. Second, my previous boat was a 65 foot tug with over 4000 gallons of fuel, much of it very old by your standards.

Why you figure my boat ownership status relates to the veracity of my advice is something only you can answer, but if that was some kind of cheap shot attempt discredit me because you are incapable of contesting the facts then it says more about your character than my knowledge or experience.

I doubt if anyone in Boeing's technical or operational divisions own an airliner. Does that mean in your eyes they shouldn't advise airlines about how to keep their aircraft running? Does the CFO of a large company have to own a large company? At least try and find something solid if you want to attack me.

None of the yachts that I deal with daily have "polishing systems" installed. Those things are the recreational affectation of people like you who believe that buying a boat somehow endows you with marine engineering knowledge and experience.

I could care less how you waste your money or pretend to engineer your boat, it's your boat, your hobby and you aren't paying me to advise you.

When someone here asks advice or opinion about a system or technique I know something about I will provide my opinion based on years of doing the things I talk about. I don't provide advice on subjects I have no knowledge or experience. I don't get paid for it and don't have any stake in whether my advice is taken or not. I look at this site as way to "give back" some of the things others have taught me and I have learned through a career at sea and working on marine machinery. I didn't come here to fend off your kind of crap and people like you drive people away.



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[sunchaser]

The fuel polishing systems of choice for industrial organic solution use are Alfa Laval centrifuges or their clones. Many appear on larger yachts as has been*noted by RickB over the years. With the newer Tier II -III - IV engines perfect filtering in front of the injectors is a must, This is why spin on filters are now common in a 30, 10 and 2 (on engine) micron*configuration. Whether* paper towels or systems like Gonzo is setting up, you cannot get away from a good pre engine filtering setup for the new Tier X engines. And this 3 stage system allows you to do away with fuel polishing if you have* twin/valved over sized 30 u spin on "mud" filter - for old or new engines.

Fuel polishing will not hurt you, but it is not mandatory for clean fuel to the engine IMHO.

 

[Delfin]

My apologies Rick.* I have never seen any reference to your own boat, and certainly didn't mean to suggest that not owning a trawler or boat of the size owned by those who use this site would disqualify you from offering frequently informed and knowledgeable information.* I'm sure we all benefit from your knowledge.

Am I to understand that the vessels you work on lack pre-filtration, since it is a waste of time, and your recommendation would be not to bother with it?

 

[RickB]

Delfin wrote:My apologies Rick.*

Apology accepted.

Sunchaser pretty much nailed it.

*

 

[Codger2]

sunchaser wrote:
Fuel polishing will not hurt you, but it is not mandatory for clean fuel to the engine IMHO.

I had a fuel polishing system installed in my boat about 4 years ago and was sooo
proud of it. Since that time, (the last 2 or 3 years) I have concluded that it is not
needed and is a waste of money & space. I think we can thank Bill Parletore and
Steve D' at PMM for selling the fuel polishing. Just before Bill retired , he was
writing about extending this line of thought to "water polishing."

*

 

[Delfin]

Walt, as with most absolutes, I'm not sure it's always true that fuel polishing systems on boats are a waste.* The size of tanks, the time it takes to burn the fuel, the propensity for condensation, the condition of the fuel as it goes into the tank (think Southern Mexico drum transfer), the presence or absence of a day tank - these would seem to be variables that might argue for polishing.*

In my situation, as with most trawlers, you are going to add or precipitate out contaminants.* It just becomes a matter of where you want those contaminants to end up.* If you have sump drains that you can reach on all tanks, much, but not all can end up in a paper cup.* My preference is to clean it before it hits the day tank, as it is for a lot of folks.

 

[Tom.B]

I guess I should have asked more questions and done more research before I got this deep into it. I am a little bummed that the same people that vigorously encouraged me and my efforts (greatly appreciated BTW), neglected to really inform me that polishing is not needed (in their opinion). Had I been armed with that info, I might have, for the sake of costs, cut that out of the rig. But I guess that's water under the bridge right now. I'll be trying final mock-up tomorrow. Still, it HAS been fun and I HAVE learned quite a bit.

Tom-

 

[jleonard]

The real "issue" here is that one does not always know everyone's background on open forums like this therefore you really don't know the knowledge base behind the posting.
Plus on a subject like this usually the folks for it want to be heard, those against are usually not as enthusiastic.

So don't look back and shoulda,woulda, coulda,

just move on.

 

[sunchaser]

Gonzo - I did not ask the Forum members if our boat, this winter, *needed new cushions in the salon, new NN3, new exhaust elbows, anti siphon loops installed on the exhaust, EGT gauges added*or prop speed touched up. I can only but imagine the responses. (Too late, they're all done)

What I have done on occasion is PM or ask some members for their advice. You are not throwing your money away and as Jay Leonard says it is a great learning experience for all of us as you unrelentingly press on. Keep up the good work and don't look back.

 

[markpierce]

I've asked for input on many subjects (helman's layout, hull color, stabilizing sails, etc.)* Since there were no "right" answers, the responses had wide-ranging and opposite answers/opinions.* Neverthess, useful information was provided and helped me make better*(for me) decisions and was*worth the occasional unhelpful*harassment or wisecrack.*

 

[RickB]

GonzoF1 wrote:I am a little bummed that the same people that vigorously encouraged me and my efforts (greatly appreciated BTW), neglected to really inform me that polishing is not needed (in their opinion).

While I understand your feelings about that please consider that you had already made*the choice to fabricate a polishing system and didn't need anyone's permission or blessing to do it.

Like I wrote someplace else recently about this, if you had asked if it was wise or worthwhile you might have had other responses. Mine would have been exactly what I have posted recently on other threads.

Once you got pretty far along and it looked like the design might benefit from another viewpoint I threw in my 2 cents worth of ideas on how*I would do it if it was my project. It was not my place to tell you to stop because I think it is not worth it, and you didn't ask for anyone to tell you if you should continue. you asked for advice and assistance with the layout, and like many other projects I get involved*with on other boats, I showed what I might do if it were mine given the cost and space constraints you are working with.

I don't think your fuel will benefit a great deal but I know you will/did and that is good enough as far as I am concerned. For that alone the project was worth supporting, in my opinion.

 

[markpierce]

JohnP and Tom, don't beat yourselves up.* Opinions on the value of a fuel polishing system*aren't unamonous.* Even though my builder didn't think one was necessary, for better or worse I had one installed.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 17th of February 2011 01:46:03 PM

 

[Codger2]

Delfin wrote:Walt, as with most absolutes, I'm not sure it's always true that fuel polishing systems on boats are a waste.
_______________________________________________________________
Your points are valid.

I was referring to "my boat" which is a single diesel and only holds 200 gallons. With a cummins 330B in it, it sure doesn't take long to run through 200 gals. Not to mention that when the engine is running, I've returned more fuel to the tanks that the engine is actually using. (In effect, I'm polishing that fuel.) I was remiss in inferring that* polishing is not needed on all boats. If I had a boat such as yours, with the capacity that you have, I would, indeed, have a polishing set up. I had 1300 gallon capacity on my sport fisher and did not have fuel polishing on board and got along just fine with no problems at all. On that boat, however, the fuel never sat in the tanks for many months or years at a time as I was on the circuit and burned it at an alarming rate.

I retract my statement, as it is presently written. A fuel polishing requirement really depends on the points you have illustrated.

 

[markpierce]

In my boat it could take something like 400 hours or more*to consume the fuel, and I've heard that the Deere 4045 engine doesn't*recirculate a whole lot of fuel back to the tank.* Thus, a polishing system sounded good to me.* Experience will tell.

 

[Per]

so i am gonna take this thread to the next logic step.
fuel filters seem to play a vital part of this discussion.

is there anything to loose or gain by using fuel filters with higher degree of filtration than required by manufacturer (in my case Cats)?

 

[skipperdude]

The cat should have a 2 micron on the engine and you probably has a 30 micron on your Racor.*

SD

 

[Delfin]

One of the points missed in this discussion is the fact that when a filter says it is a 2 micron filter, regardless of whether it is a secondary or primary filter, that doesn't mean that any particle greater than 2 microns will be stopped.* Filters earn their ratings based on the percentage of particles that small they can trap.* In other words, unless fuel is circulated multiple times through a filter of a given rating, particles larger than that rating will get through.* This is one of the arguments for polishing - repeated passes through the filter gets most of the stuff that exceeds the rating of the filter, but not one pass.* So, if you have a day tank, vigorous return flow will help, but you'll still have particles in the fuel that exceed the filtration capacity of the filters reaching the injectors.*

So Gonzo, I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that some argue for polishing, and make equipment recommendations to accomplish it, then argue against it in another post.* Those posts are about making a point and being argumentative, and not much else.

As noted, whether you need polishing or not is a function of a number of variables.* You probably need it less than another boat with more tankage, but it sure as heck isn't going to hurt anything, and you're having fun putting it together.

 

[sunchaser]

Delfin

I believe you are referring to the Beta Number. If a filter has a beta of 0.8 for a given size say 2 micron, that means it traps 80% of the particles of 2u or smaller when new.

 

[Delfin]

Tom, that rings a bell.* I also vaguely recall that the efficiency of the filter goes up as it is used until the point it ceases to pass required flow.* Is that your understanding?

 

[RickB]

Delfin wrote:I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that some argue for polishing, and make equipment recommendations to accomplish it, then argue against it in another post.* Those posts are about making a point and being argumentative, and not much else.

Delphin, it doesn't surprise me that you can't tell the difference. Someone asked for advice and help with assembling a filter system. I don't have to believe in the reason he wanted a filter to offer assistance.

It is people like you and your and your bitter hatred for things you can't understand that make it not worth the effort to even read the posts, much less contribute in this forum ... I am beginning to understand why better people than I have bailed.

*

 

[Delfin]

RickB wrote:
It is people like you and your and your bitter hatred for things you can't understand that make it not worth the effort to even read the posts, much less contribute in this forum

Rick, just because someone disagrees with you occasionally doesn't mean they harbor hatred.* You responded to my posting a picture of a pre-filter showing what had been removed from my fuel to be pointless and said so, and assumed incorrectly that the cause was heating.* I didn't conclude you were harboring hatred as a result of your point of view, even though incorrect, but if you feel that I express ill will against you when I have a different perspective, then again, I apologize.*

I hope you do keep posting as many of us learn from your experience when it's applicable.* If the terms of your participation is that you are never disagreed with, then I for one, won't cross that line again, since your input is frequently valuable.

*

 

[markpierce]

Geewiz Rick, you can "dish it out" but can't "take it"?* Hopefully not.* I'm still here despite your barbs.* You're surely as much of a man as I.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Rick- Lighten lighten up dude! nobody is attacking you personnally. We are all here for entertainment and learning purposes. You provide excellent engineering insights and ideas to the forum. Don't feel like anyone is on the offensive if they don't agree with you. All of the members have varying degrees of boating and engineering skills. What most of us hope to take away is additional knowledge of the ships systems and operations.

 

[RickB]

Sailor of Fortune wrote:Rick- Lighten lighten up dude! nobody is attacking you personnally.

Out of respect for a fellow mariner I will try and explain the issue as I see it.

I can hold my own against the best any* industry professional has to offer in any discussion relative to marine engineering or yacht operations. I have had my mind changed in the past and will in the near future by those who know more than I. That is how I learn and what makes my job so rewarding.

What I have a big problem with is when I take the time to help a hobbyist with a project, even a project I would not personally take on for any number of reasons, then have that assistance thrown back in my face as a reason that past advice or information about some subject is invalid or discredited.

Tell me why I should waste my time "giving back" anything? I know the particular individual who finally brought this to the edge has other agendas, a give and take on technical or procedural topics not being his reason for posting.

I am unmerciful when someone posts* nonsense (particularly dangerous nonsense) and am very ready to state why I know it to be and nearly always provide links to external sources to prove my point. I have little time for fools or poseurs and generally choose to ignore them. But when honest and innocent assistance to a forum member who specifically requested it is used as a weapon in an attempt to discredit me, it reminds me I have better things to do with my spare time than expose myself to that kind of mindless and stingy abuse.





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[Tom.B]

I wish I had never brought it up. This is intolerable.

 

[jleonard]

My next door neighbor kids are 12 year old fraternal twins.
They are awsum kids, respectful, polite, smart, active.
When they are together they fight like cats and dogs.
Not sure why I thought of that right now

 

[Codger2]

Rick:
Have you noticed that I'm staying out of this?
(Water off a duck's back and all.)

 

[Carey]

"To be absolutely certain about something, one must know everything or nothing about it."
Olin Miller


Food for thought!

 

[ralphyost]

Carey
As a corrollary to your post -

As a young engineer, I realized that not all of the engineers I was working with were equal in technical prowess. As a result, I printed off these words I coined back in 1981 -

"Anything is possible if you dont know what you are talking about"


R.

 

[markpierce]

There are filters, and then there are filters.