Fuel

[Nick14]

This is the price of supporting Ukraine. By shunning Russian fuel, the world supply is reduced. There's only one way for the price to go: up.

For as long as we don't buy Russian oil, the price of diesel will stay high. I'm guessing this will be for as long as Putin is still alive, so likely longer than shorter.

FWIW, I also think it's a price well worth paying to help the Ukrainian people, by continuing to squeeze Russia.

 

[FWT]

This is the price of supporting Ukraine. By shunning Russian fuel, the world supply is reduced. There's only one way for the price to go: up.

For as long as we don't buy Russian oil, the price of diesel will stay high. I'm guessing this will be for as long as Putin is still alive, so likely longer than shorter.

FWIW, I also think it's a price well worth paying to help the Ukrainian people, by continuing to squeeze Russia.

Certainly one part of it.

But on the east coast US a part of it is diesel refinery capacity is half of what it was a decade ago. Crude or no crude, they just can't make enough.

 

[McGillicuddy]

Russia is happily selling oil to China both directly and through intermediates. The embargo is not hurting Putin that much, in fact with the huge increase in prices he can sell less oil and make more profit. In fact there is still quite a bit of Russian oil arriving in the USA through intermediaries. I worked in the shipping industry and know how this is done with Bills of Lading issued at load port marked ‘To Order’ that are then traded multiple times until it passes through an exporter from a legit OPEC country who re-issues the B/L from that country.

Anyway, that is not the subject of this thread.
The shortage of diesel oil is actually a result of political legislation both domestic and foreign. The IMO (International Maritime Organization) agreement to use only very low sulfur fuels on ships recently came into full effect and put huge pressure on supply. Ships that used to use high sulfur fuels suddenly needed low sulfur supply worldwide.

Also domestic legislation has reduced sulfur and other contaminates compositions from on road fuels. Removing sulfur from crude is an expensive proposition for refineries and leaves a huge amount of raw sulfur which is becoming increasingly difficult to dispose of. Not all refineries have this capability and those that don’t can’t meet the new specifications. This means they don’t make diesel or other fuel oils that use higher sulfur. Or they don’t refine higher sulfur crude stock. That puts pressure on the price of that type of crude and that’s what we have seen here.

Adding the capability to remove sulfur during the refining process is not a snap fingers and done proposition. It typically a 10 year process from budget approval to production. Given the prevailing political political climate to eliminate oil based fuels I would guess not many refining companies are willing to make that financial and time commitment to build the required infrastructure to remove sulfur or to handle high sulfur crude stock as the amortization time is uncertain.

Political legislation got way ahead of supply and technical abilities of refineries and now we are paying the price. I don’t see this situation resolving itself in the near term. Prepare for long term high prices, increasing as time goes on.

Oh, and by the way, this is completely in accordance with the current administration’s policy who have stated openly and quite clearly their goal is to eliminate carbon based fuels. This is just the start.

 

[backinblue]

Russia is happily selling oil to China both directly and through intermediates. The embargo is not hurting Putin that much, in fact with the huge increase in prices he can sell less oil and make more profit. In fact there is still quite a bit of Russian oil arriving in the USA through intermediaries. I worked in the shipping industry and know how this is done with Bills of Lading issued at load port marked ‘To Order’ that are then traded multiple times until it passes through an exporter from a legit OPEC country who re-issues the B/L from that country.

Anyway, that is not the subject of this thread.
The shortage of diesel oil is actually a result of political legislation both domestic and foreign. The IMO (International Maritime Organization) agreement to use only very low sulfur fuels on ships recently came into full effect and put huge pressure on supply. Ships that used to use high sulfur fuels suddenly needed low sulfur supply worldwide.

Also domestic legislation has reduced sulfur and other contaminates compositions from on road fuels. Removing sulfur from crude is an expensive proposition for refineries and leaves a huge amount of raw sulfur which is becoming increasingly difficult to dispose of. Not all refineries have this capability and those that don’t can’t meet the new specifications. This means they don’t make diesel or other fuel oils that use higher sulfur. Or they don’t refine higher sulfur crude stock. That puts pressure on the price of that type of crude and that’s what we have seen here.

Adding the capability to remove sulfur during the refining process is not a snap fingers and done proposition. It typically a 10 year process from budget approval to production. Given the prevailing political political climate to eliminate oil based fuels I would guess not many refining companies are willing to make that financial and time commitment to build the required infrastructure to remove sulfur or to handle high sulfur crude stock as the amortization time is uncertain.

Political legislation got way ahead of supply and technical abilities of refineries and now we are paying the price. I don’t see this situation resolving itself in the near term. Prepare for long term high prices, increasing as time goes on.

Oh, and by the way, this is completely in accordance with the current administration’s policy who have stated openly and quite clearly their goal is to eliminate carbon based fuels. This is just the start.

It's exactly the policy that the current adminsitration campaigned on. Nobody should be surprised by what what's happening. The Ukraine invasion just accelerated the process, but the end result is the same. We got what we asked for. I find it a little funny though that a year ago most TF members were quick to proclaim that fuel prices are insignificant to boating budgets. But now that they are up 50% or so from last year, it's suddenly an issue. Can't have it both ways.

 

[kthoennes]

...We got what we asked for...

Well, what *some* of us asked for.

 

[backinblue]

Well, what *some* of us asked for.

Not going there, but by "we" I mean the collective majority, not anyone personally.

 

[Comodave]

If this keeps going into politics the thread will likely be closed. Please keep politics out of TF.

 

[kthoennes]

I happen to drive a (2007) Escalade so I get sales brochures and announcements from the Cadillac dealer. They're rolling out the 2023 model, the Escalade V. $149,000, nearly 700 horse power, 0 to 60 in 4.4 seconds. I can't find any fuel specs, but the base model gets 14/16. Between this discussion about skyrocketing fuel prices for the boat, and that sales brochure, why do I feel like the world is losing its mind?

 

[KnotYet]

If this keeps going into politics the thread will likely be closed. Please keep politics out of TF.

It will be no great loss.
The 3 main points have been: 1. Fuel costs more than before,
2. It used to cost less,
3. Someone is to blame...

 

[BruceK]

I happen to drive a (2007) Escalade so I get sales brochures and announcements from the Cadillac dealer. They're rolling out the 2023 model, the Escalade V. $149,000, nearly 700 horse power, 0 to 60 in 4.4 seconds. I can't find any fuel specs, but the base model gets 14/16. Between this discussion about skyrocketing fuel prices for the boat, and that sales brochure, why do I feel like the world is losing its mind?

0-60 in 4.5 seconds would have been a disaster,a personal insult, and an engineering failure.

 

[OldDan1943]

Well, what *some* of us asked for.

Let's go back to the old rules. I will die soon and then you can do whatever 'you' want. Until I die, let's take $3 per gallon off the fuel prices.

 

[OldDan1943]

Hmmmm, boat prices have jumped up, time delay for getting a new boat, cant find parts, fuel prices have jumped up with no end in sight. Remind me again, 'boating is fun'? Soon, maybe, people will pay a premium when buying a boat with full fuel tanks.

 

[FWT]

It will be no great loss.
The 3 main points have been: 1. Fuel costs more than before,
2. It used to cost less,
3. Someone is to blame...

Well, I started this thread and my main point has been that availability was about to be in question. So fill up when you can.

 

[JohnP]

Hmmmm, boat prices have jumped up, time delay for getting a new boat, cant find parts, fuel prices have jumped up with no end in sight. Remind me again, 'boating is fun'? Soon, maybe, people will pay a premium when buying a boat with full fuel tanks.

 

[JohnP]

Russia is happily selling oil to China both directly and through intermediates. The embargo is not hurting Putin that much, in fact with the huge increase in prices he can sell less oil and make more profit. In fact there is still quite a bit of Russian oil arriving in the USA through intermediaries. I worked in the shipping industry and know how this is done with Bills of Lading issued at load port marked ‘To Order’ that are then traded multiple times until it passes through an exporter from a legit OPEC country who re-issues the B/L from that country.

Anyway, that is not the subject of this thread.
The shortage of diesel oil is actually a result of political legislation both domestic and foreign. The IMO (International Maritime Organization) agreement to use only very low sulfur fuels on ships recently came into full effect and put huge pressure on supply. Ships that used to use high sulfur fuels suddenly needed low sulfur supply worldwide.

Also domestic legislation has reduced sulfur and other contaminates compositions from on road fuels. Removing sulfur from crude is an expensive proposition for refineries and leaves a huge amount of raw sulfur which is becoming increasingly difficult to dispose of. Not all refineries have this capability and those that don’t can’t meet the new specifications. This means they don’t make diesel or other fuel oils that use higher sulfur. Or they don’t refine higher sulfur crude stock. That puts pressure on the price of that type of crude and that’s what we have seen here.

Adding the capability to remove sulfur during the refining process is not a snap fingers and done proposition. It typically a 10 year process from budget approval to production. Given the prevailing political political climate to eliminate oil based fuels I would guess not many refining companies are willing to make that financial and time commitment to build the required infrastructure to remove sulfur or to handle high sulfur crude stock as the amortization time is uncertain.

Political legislation got way ahead of supply and technical abilities of refineries and now we are paying the price. I don’t see this situation resolving itself in the near term. Prepare for long term high prices, increasing as time goes on.

Oh, and by the way, this is completely in accordance with the current administration’s policy who have stated openly and quite clearly their goal is to eliminate carbon based fuels. This is just the start.

 

[backinblue]

I happen to drive a (2007) Escalade so I get sales brochures and announcements from the Cadillac dealer. They're rolling out the 2023 model, the Escalade V. $149,000, nearly 700 horse power, 0 to 60 in 4.4 seconds. I can't find any fuel specs, but the base model gets 14/16. Between this discussion about skyrocketing fuel prices for the boat, and that sales brochure, why do I feel like the world is losing its mind?

Why not an electric vehicle if people are looking for fast acceleration? Personally I don't think the world is ready for supporting full-scale electrification of vehicles, but at the same time I don't quite get it why car companies think building bigger more powerful gas engines is the right move.

 

[OldDan1943]

Next, living in your total electric RV bus, with 2 tip outs, at a charging station

 

[Hippocampus]

Let’s also remember the extensive damage and loss of refining capacity due to all the recent 100y storms as a result MMCC. Yup a catch 22. Refineries are on the coast. More severe hurricanes take them out due to what they refine. We’ve been a dollar short and a day late. Multiple administrations and countries didn’t respect the downsides of globalization and need for various materials (Li, cobalt, rare earths etc.) as being important to national security.
This isn’t a red/blue issue. Relates to all goods. Grain, veggies even water. World only works if all countries respect rules of international order. Authoritarian/ nationalistic governments (Russia, China, Hungary, Brazil, prior US) disturb that order so globalism doesn’t work. So agree it’s going to take awhile to sort this one out and fuel, plastic or anything petro will be dear for quite some time. Think we need to spend resources on mitigation and hardening of key infrastructure which includes refineries.
My projected costs. At least 4 refills at around $6.50 so 1800g therefore around $12k. Yes a real hit on the cruising kitty. Planning for as much as $20k.

 

[rslifkin]

Right now it seems like fuel prices are going up disproportionately to oil prices. So something is going on more than just the usual things that impact oil prices. Hippocampus's point on refineries is likely very relevant here.

 

[FWT]

I'm not going into politics.

Especially since this board has proven it can't handle the normal state of affairs I grew up with, where one could discuss and debate without losing one's temper. We can't, so that's that. The board rules make sense.

But Hippo, without getting into any specifics at all, there is a big difference between these shortages and those of other times. This isn't due to some clear one time event like a hurricane that temporarily disrupted things. This is the confluence of a string of decisions made by people. When those decisions change, this condition can change. Normally we could debate and discuss what those are, and which ones matter the most. But we can't, not here. Over a beer somewhere, sure. I'll buy the first round, and we can laugh together at each other's lunacy the way adults do, and toast together on those items we agree on, the way adults do.

 

[Hippocampus]

Totally agree a confluence of events and decisions has lead to the current hairball. Just like a tangled fishing line we all need to keep our cool and pick it apart. There’s more than enough blame to parcel out but too little thinking beyond immediate self interest.
Huge difference between science and engineering. Similar huge difference between engineering thinking and politicians/accountants/ and the C** crowd.

 

[SteveK]

what is the C** crowd

 

[Hippocampus]

CEO, CFO, etc.

 

[rslifkin]

Looks like I made a good call on Sunday to throw another 100 gallons in the tanks (at $5.54 for gas) after confirming that the marina wasn't able to secure a full season fuel price contract this year and their prices were likely to jump soon. Just walked over to the gas dock to look and they're up a full dollar since Sunday (to $6.54 for gas, $6.98 for diesel).

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I just posted diesel prices for the Inside Passage as of today, May 17th below.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63712

 

[backinblue]

I don't know why anyone would hesitate to fill up asap as the trend is only higher from here. Prices are rising quickly week by week and will likely worsen as the demand increases during the summer.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I don't know why anyone would hesitate to fill up asap as the trend is only higher from here. Prices are rising quickly week by week and will likely worsen as the demand increases during the summer.

Very true and a big consideration when we decided to stay in the river this summer instead of Alaska.

 

[SteveK]

gasoline cost went past diesel yesterday locally, so there is that, a first in quite a while.
Gas 233.9 liter
Diesel 228.9 liter

 

[koliver]

gasoline cost went past diesel yesterday locally, so there is that, a first in quite a while.
Gas 233.9 liter
Diesel 228.9 liter

Steve, where are you?
I was on Vancouver Island last week, and for the first time ever their gas was higher than ours on Saltspring. Not knowing, I filled, as always, to return home full, then saw the difference. Cost me an extra dollar!

 

[SteveK]

Steve, where are you?
I was on Vancouver Island last week, and for the first time ever their gas was higher than ours on Saltspring. Not knowing, I filled, as always, to return home full, then saw the difference. Cost me an extra dollar!

Near Alex Fraser, but I drove to Langley and back. gas was higher. what prices did you see Van isle and Saltspring