Future Manufacturing

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

N4061

Guru
Joined
Feb 7, 2010
Messages
1,199
I thought this post would generate some good discussion for those who have been around boats for a while. I was just wondering in light of world economics and tensions if we will see a shift in boat manufacturing from the low cost countries to the US. Most know the attraction of overseas manufacturing was driven by lower labor costs and boats are labor intensive. Fast forward 20-30 years and labor has increased in most counties combined with higher shipping costs to the point the US or Canadian dollar may be competitive. Think about Nordhavn starting production of the new N41 in Turkey and not China or Tiawain. Look at Northern Marine re-emerging. Look at B Swift trawlers being built in South Carolina? Think about the downeast builders who have survived over the years and other well known sport fishing builders. While many stateside built boats lack the craftsmanship of fine woods their are some high quality boats out there.
So is world economics starting a shift in trawler boat manufacturing?
 
I don’t think there’s really much shifting going on, nobody manufacturing wise is closing in significant numbers, and models and brands are being added to, and disappearing from, all sectors. I think the proportions around the world are remaining pretty static.
 
While labor costs are certainly a factor, I'm sure environmental costs are substantially cheaper in 3rd world contries. It would be interesting to know what that cost is per boat. Then there is the OSHA and work place insurance regulations. I'm sure both of those add a substantial cost to labor in general. Without substantial tariffs, it's tough to see North American boat builders competing in large volume production. If it weren't for the Jones Act, I think there would be very little commercial boat building in the USA.

Ted
 
Cruisers Yachts still made in Wisconsin. On the other hand Palmer Yachts moved from Sturgeon Bay to Europe (somewhere).

I really don't think you will see manufacturers moving either way for a while. Sales are OK but not great and the cost of moving must be astronomical.

pete
 
I think it's a definite possibility! Ocean Alexander's 70E made in Florida, New England boat builders still operating, Wisconsin still a great place to build boats, increasing shipping costs from abroad, 2 very popular engine manufacturers (Cat & Cummins) here in the US, Warrantees on US boats easier to process, travel time & distance for boat shoppers reduced, etc, etc,. definitely possible!
 
There are assumptions being made in this thread that, while they apply in many industries, do not really fit boat building. Boat building did not move from the US. It was never really here in much greater ratio than it is today. The European and Asian builders were always there. If labor rates were the key issue then do you think Italy would be leading the way, with the UK, France, Germany, and the Netherlands all having sizable shares.

Boat building in volume is very capital intensive and those willing to invest in it have largely not been in the US. That's where China has an even greater influence as two of the largest builders in Europe are owned by Chinese industrialists. One major US builder that has maintained it's place in the industry is Westport and they've done that through private ownership by Edson and now by Chouest, two private owners who are lifelong US boat enthusiasts.

Hatteras remains under ownership of Venture capitalists. Now, that can work, but let's look at Glastron, Four Winns and Scarab who were owned in that manner and when it came time to sell, there was no US buyer so Beneteau was the buyer. Sounded great. Is until you read that Beneteau is eliminating four brands including Glastron and Scarab and essentially eliminating Four Winns as they're converting it to an outboard Catamaran company.

As builders in the US have experienced trouble, there haven't been US industrialists ready to step in. Look at Tolly and Post, purchased by small businessmen and discontinued.

Meanwhile, the builders of boats used mostly on US lakes are owned largely by public US companies and they continue to be.

Now, what if the US makes it very difficult to buy new boats from China? It would likely hurt a couple of builders but not the Chinese boat building as a whole. Why? First, the US isn't the only country with buyers. Plenty of Asian and European buyers. Second, if US citizens still want the boat, they just won't import into the US. They'll flag it offshore and they'll get cruising permits and every year they'll run it to the Bahamas and back and renew.

With a long time industry pro, a few years ago, I looked at acquiring a brand built in Asia with the intent of moving it's building to the US, a brand selling a large percentage to US customers. Financially, it would have worked. Plenty of places to build and costs very little different when considering freight. Problem was the owners weren't going to sell to anyone with plans to move it.

Look at Brunswick's struggles to sell Hatteras and finally found Versa to make the purchase. Look again at their struggles to sell Sea Ray and they never found a buyer and gave up. There are just no US companies or individuals both capable and willing to make such a purchase.

This is so in contrast to apparel for instance, where the US led the way until lower labor costs led to it moving offshore, initially to the South and then to Asia. Apparel is a labor intensive industry. Boat building is capital intensive. Shipping costs in apparel will never come close to the labor savings. Shipping costs of boats are significant and make up for a good part of any labor savings.

One other factor in Chinese manufacturing specifically. The US led the Industrial Revolution. The Chinese then took over the leadership. Not only did industrialists invest in companies, the invested in technology. Just look at some of the manufacturing facilities in China and at the investments in the most advanced equipment. China is losing business in some industries to countries with lower labor costs, but their factories are truly state of the art compared to many US factories. US manufacturers were often short sighted and driven by preserving cash so not making investments.

Why is so much automobile manufacturing now in the US? Largely because foreign companies were willing to make the kinds of investments in facilities and equipment they did in Japan and Germany. Making that investment, it was quite profitable to build in the US and the labor costs became a non-factor. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai/Kia, Mercedes all had what was lacking in the US, the capital to invest and the willingness to do so. Within our business, we have many company cars and trucks. We also manage a lot of school buses. We have Honda cars, we have Mercedes vans and trucks, we have Mercedes buses and they were all built in the US. (We also have some Ford vans).
 
While labor costs are certainly a factor, I'm sure environmental costs are substantially cheaper in 3rd world contries. It would be interesting to know what that cost is per boat. Then there is the OSHA and work place insurance regulations. I'm sure both of those add a substantial cost to labor in general. Without substantial tariffs, it's tough to see North American boat builders competing in large volume production. If it weren't for the Jones Act, I think there would be very little commercial boat building in the USA.

Ted

Manufacturing in the Third World is almost always more expensive than in First World due to logistics and lack of existing infrastructure. You almost always need to provide your own power plant to have reliable electricity. Where manufacturing value lies is in developing "Second World" already industrialized countries.

Thing is, there aren’t many of them left, basically Indonesia and Vietnam. Technologically, China, Taiwan, and South Korea, which we’ve traditionally counted as developing are now not only equal, but leading the way. Intel can no longer compete at silicon chip manufacturing, unable to develop the process to compete with their Asian competitors.

In Boat building the Taiwan yards are putting out as good or better than anywhere else in the world.

The real problem with manufacturing in America is hiring the human talent willing to do the work, so it’s gone robotic, and boy does it save time in the building of a boat.

I think robots have, and will continue to expand, influence on the manufacturing economy that out weighs the savings of even Second World manufacturing economy. As the price of these robot arms continues to decline, the primary factor that influences where to set up manufacturing is the costs involved getting the product to its primary market. That is influenced more by tariffs and trade deals, and given the environmental infrastructure to boat manufacturing all exists at reasonable costs, there is no savings to be had going third world just so you can pollute for profit, not to mention it won’t be a good thing to be called out in by a generally environmentally conscious consumer base.
 
As someone that worked in shipyards and owned a yard, taxes and regulations are the biggest obstacle to manufacturing in the US. Labor is not the biggest expense. Any manufacturing on the water or a product to do with the water is much more costly to comply than building cars or houses.
There has been a movement for many years to "get the evil rich" and any business or individual that appears to be making a profit. Along with the environmental movement regulations to return the US waters to a condition before humans. Even native Americans of 200 years ago would be in violation. So manufacturing left and took well paying, secure jobs with them. In my yard, years ago, the lowest pay was $18/hr and the average above $30 before benefits.
The other problem is the start up costs. Where do you setup a yard that has deep water? The best marine sites are now covered with condos or trinket stores.
 
As someone that worked in shipyards and owned a yard, taxes and regulations are the biggest obstacle to manufacturing in the US. Labor is not the biggest expense. Any manufacturing on the water or a product to do with the water is much more costly to comply than building cars or houses.
There has been a movement for many years to "get the evil rich" and any business or individual that appears to be making a profit. Along with the environmental movement regulations to return the US waters to a condition before humans. Even native Americans of 200 years ago would be in violation. So manufacturing left and took well paying, secure jobs with them. In my yard, years ago, the lowest pay was $18/hr and the average above $30 before benefits.
The other problem is the start up costs. Where do you setup a yard that has deep water? The best marine sites are now covered with condos or trinket stores.

Real Estate is really the most significant factor, where the shipyards used to be stand now million dollar luxury condos, and there just isn’t significantly more land available for industrial use. The Gulf Coast and up the the rivers is about all that’s left available. But this applies to ship building, not so much recreational market boats. They are built all over the US.
 
While not related to boats i am involved some specialty manufacturing around the world and the two biggest players for this product were china and Poland. I talked to Poland today and ask if there manufacturing was still up to my demand and they said they were ready to go but shipping was was still screwed. He added he didn't think China was going to be a player any longer. I ask if that was due to covid or relations with the us and he said it was the internal challenges they are having and the industry i work with likely wont survive. I think we are going to see changes in a lot of areas but not likely that affect the consumer but entrepreneurs.
 
While not related to boats i am involved some specialty manufacturing around the world and the two biggest players for this product were china and Poland. I talked to Poland today and ask if there manufacturing was still up to my demand and they said they were ready to go but shipping was was still screwed. He added he didn't think China was going to be a player any longer. I ask if that was due to covid or relations with the us and he said it was the internal challenges they are having and the industry i work with likely wont survive. I think we are going to see changes in a lot of areas but not likely that affect the consumer but entrepreneurs.

As we see some business move elsewhere, and it has been doing so for several years so this isn't a new trend, it still only makes a small dent in the manufacturing and exports of China. 48% of the exports are machinery and equipment. Phones would be the number one consumer product. Products like furniture and textiles only combine for about 8% of the exports.

In 2019, China was only the source for 19% of our imports. Mexico was 14%, Canada was 13%. Japan 6%, Germany 5%, South Korea 3%, Vietnam 3%, UK 3%, Ireland 3%, India, Italy, France, Switzerland and Malaysia around 2% each.
 
WA State certainly has had and continues to have its share of builders! While some are out of business (Tollycraft, Uniflite, and I think both Bayliners and Reinell? used to be built hereabouts), but Fluid Motion (Ranger Tugs, Cutwater), American Tugs and Nordic Tugs are still here.
 
Surprisingly, two Australian boat builders, Riviera and Maritimo, producing quite similar boats, are still in business making and selling boats. Lesser volume Caribbean too. Sure we have plenty of imports, but these locally built brands stay the course. Riviera changed owners in the GFC after bankruptcy but continued in business.
 
Surprisingly, two Australian boat builders, Riviera and Maritimo, producing quite similar boats, are still in business making and selling boats. Lesser volume Caribbean too. Sure we have plenty of imports, but these locally built brands stay the course. Riviera changed owners in the GFC after bankruptcy but continued in business.

Palm Beach was also doing well in Australia until they were acquired by Grand Banks and production consolidated in Malaysia.
 
Great discussion and educational for many. I still have to wonder if at some point tensions between China and the US will result in higher tariffs and further push the scale to the tipping point? Maybe the upcoming election will determine that. Regarding the comment about capital costs to set up a manufacturing facility state side I would argue that the tooling costs play a large percentage and are incurred anywhere you build. Look at some of older factories still producing decent quality boats today and there is not that much investment. Assuming enough through put the amortization costs can be managed. Agree regulatory issues and costs can kill any start up thus finding the right state would be a key factor.
I’m curious to know if any company considered northern Mexico as a manufacturing site? Ensenada is only 70 miles south of SD and there are a few marinas that do repairs. Low costs, little regulation and close to California for importing hardware. Thanks
 
Interesting topic. I do not have anything to add to this conversation except to say thank you. I lurk here from time to time and I am always impressed what a wealth of knowledge we have here on this board.
 
Great discussion and educational for many. I still have to wonder if at some point tensions between China and the US will result in higher tariffs and further push the scale to the tipping point? Maybe the upcoming election will determine that. Regarding the comment about capital costs to set up a manufacturing facility state side I would argue that the tooling costs play a large percentage and are incurred anywhere you build. Look at some of older factories still producing decent quality boats today and there is not that much investment. Assuming enough through put the amortization costs can be managed. Agree regulatory issues and costs can kill any start up thus finding the right state would be a key factor.
I’m curious to know if any company considered northern Mexico as a manufacturing site? Ensenada is only 70 miles south of SD and there are a few marinas that do repairs. Low costs, little regulation and close to California for importing hardware. Thanks

The point isn't that the capital costs are more in the US, but that no one in the US is both able and willing to spend the money on manufacturing.

As to manufacturing boats in Northern Mexico, investors are even less likely to make the capital expenditure.

There is nothing preventing or limiting boat manufacturing in the US other than just no more people wanting to do it. It's not cost prohibitive in any way. OA has found people willing to produce for them. Unfortunately, the first they found were dishonest, but they're doing better in round two.
 
Mexico was my first thought .....drug cartels. They have the money to invest but, personally, I don’t want that money. It comes with “unacceptable conditions.”
California is intent on driving industries out of the state with their environmental regulations.
Texas? That’s seems to be the destination state.
 
Last edited:
Surprisingly, two Australian boat builders, Riviera and Maritimo, producing quite similar boats, are still in business making and selling boats. Lesser volume Caribbean too. Sure we have plenty of imports, but these locally built brands stay the course. Riviera changed owners in the GFC after bankruptcy but continued in business.

Did Mustang ever build any boats in the Warren molds they bought? Did they ever finish the boats that were in the molds? I was running a refit on a yacht in Hemmant when the Warren clearance auction happened, and Mustang bought all that for next to nothing, mid low 5 figures IIRC.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom