Gaining operating experience, for insurance purposes

[Boulton20]

The insurance for older boats thread, was very informative. But it got me thinking. So I made a call to a Marine underwriter today. One has to have experience operating a larger vessel (40'-55'), before one can insure a boat. I'm sure most on here already knew this and I was somewhat aware of this. But had not research the subject, that's why I placed the call. So my question is, how does one get that time behind the wheel. So to speak. How did some of you tackle this, subject. Very interested to hear. Thanks in advance, Kris

 

[bowball]

If you buy the boat first, the insurance company will insure it only for a named captain, after you submit their resume and loss history. They will tell you - or guide you- that they will want let’s say 100 hours of training and a sign off by said approved training captain for you to be approved.. You then apply to be allowed to captain it after that submission.

 

[O C Diver]

Usually a few days with a licensed captain or someone who teaches boat courses will cover the basics. Often an insurance company may require a number of days with a licensed boat captain on the boat you're buying, to meet the underwriter's requirements. Generally, if you're asking before you buy the boat the insurance companies consider that favorable as opposed to avoiding the experience issue after purchase.

Ted

 

[Alaskaflyer]

As others in other threads have shared - and I have experienced a little as well - what “operating” a larger boat means, is in the mind of the specific underwriting agency. Pau Hauna or another insurance broker might chime in here, but some underwriters seem to accept only previous ownership of a vessel of, or just under, the pertinent size as a pre-requisite outside of some documented fantabulous licensed work experience. In my case I operated vessels in the range of my potential purchase at work (though more often smaller vessels), and have also bareboat chartered vessels of the size that I plan to purchase with no issue, BUT I fully expect to be required to have - and have budgeted for - a training captain for a few dozen hours after purchase. If the underwriter accepts my experience instead, well, I’ll be pleasantly surprised and will spend the money on something else

 

[Boulton20]

Thank you for everyones input. Where does one hire a training captain?

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: I wouldn't look at it as the insurer forcing it as much as I would the insurer looking out for you. They're the ones in boating to see that you do it right. Law doesn't require it. No other authority does. So, the insurer advises you. Then I'd look at it as the opportunity to learn and to learn my boat the right way. We did it all, courses, and now many more, but the best thing we ever did was the time spent with training captains. Because we insisted, they were tough on us too. None of us just watching, but us doing under their direction and oversight. Wonderful experience. Savor it and do it right. Find someone whose personality and methods gel with you.

 

[DonW28]

Hope this post comes across as amusing as that is the intent. Insurance companies are often doing boat owners that make significant jumps in boat size a favor. We have spent many amusing afternoons watching new captains bounce off things (thankfully not us) while trying to dock. I will have to admit that I had a hell of a learning curve with our 34 single screw mainship without the thrusters due to bad batteries. Having always had twin screw boats docking that darn thing was not fun until the batteries were replaced. I also equate handling a boat to golf. Those that do it well make it look so easy. Regretfully many of us are not Tiger Woods. Get some professional help. You will be happy and the insurance company will be happy. Win-win


Don

 

[Boulton20]

"Get some professional help" You have been talking to my wife.

 

[Pau Hana]

If you buy the boat first, the insurance company will insure it only for a named captain, after you submit their resume and loss history. They will tell you - or guide you- that they will want let’s say 100 hours of training and a sign off by said approved training captain for you to be approved.. You then apply to be allowed to captain it after that submission.

Absolutely correct.

Wifey B: I wouldn't look at it as the insurer forcing it as much as I would the insurer looking out for you. They're the ones in boating to see that you do it right. Law doesn't require it. No other authority does. So, the insurer advises you. Then I'd look at it as the opportunity to learn and to learn my boat the right way. We did it all, courses, and now many more, but the best thing we ever did was the time spent with training captains. Because we insisted, they were tough on us too. None of us just watching, but us doing under their direction and oversight. Wonderful experience. Savor it and do it right. Find someone whose personality and methods gel with you.

Again, absolutely correct and highly insightful.

Hope this post comes across as amusing as that is the intent. Insurance companies are often doing boat owners that make significant jumps in boat size a favor. We have spent many amusing afternoons watching new captains bounce off things (thankfully not us) while trying to dock. I will have to admit that I had a hell of a learning curve with our 34 single screw mainship without the thrusters due to bad batteries. Having always had twin screw boats docking that darn thing was not fun until the batteries were replaced. I also equate handling a boat to golf. Those that do it well make it look so easy. Regretfully many of us are not Tiger Woods. Get some professional help. You will be happy and the insurance company will be happy. Win-win


Don

Win-win indeed.

I’ve been writing marine coverages for 2 decades, and in the last 2 years a new trend has emerged- new vessel owners of 40+‘ , a d huge jumps in size (as in 16’ to 60’, or 28’ to 80’).

The above quotes reflect conversations that make finding coverage for the new vessel owner easier- downplay of the ego and a willingness to understand that underwriting is not looking for ways to say “no”, but rather seeking ways to lessen the risking they are covering.

 

[BandB]

The above quotes reflect conversations that make finding coverage for the new vessel owner easier- downplay of the ego and a willingness to understand that underwriting is not looking for ways to say “no”, but rather seeking ways to lessen the risking they are covering.

And by protecting themselves, they protect you. Common interests sometimes are good.

 

[Comodave]

Boat/US told me that if you jump more than 15’ you will need training. We were looking at a 58’ at the time but had owned a 46’ in the past so they said ok. But when we bought the 46’ back in 2002 they didn’t care about the jump in size. Things do change.

 

[mvweebles]

Thank you for everyones input. Where does one hire a training captain?

Talk to a local reputable brokerage. They will have a few captains. Make sure they are acceptable to your insurance agency. When I was delivering, I provided training/sign-off for a few people who had had insurance claims and their insurance wouldn't continue coverage unless they received training. Mostly close quarter maneuvering. I had a checklist of items I would cover. Nowadays sounds like insurers want to moderate their risk going into a policy.

30-years ago, I bought a Uniflite 42 ACMY to liveaboard. Prior boating experience was pretty lame. Looking back, I'm amazed I found insurance. These days would be extremely difficult.

Peter

 

[CharlieO.]

We went for a smaller boat get our sea time in.

Maybe in a few years we will get a bigger boat, We are planning on a training captain for docking skills and also will have a captain aboard for our 1/2 day trip to our spring dock come April.

 

[C lectric]

Thank you for everyones input. Where does one hire a training captain?

You might get some suggestions of where and who to ask if you tell us where you are , just roughly.
I googled E-burg and got nothing including some disclaimers.

 

[Shrew]

Whether you climb the ladder traditionally with successively larger boats, or you jump straight in and pay a captain to train you more formally. Either way, there is a cost of entry into larger boats and you're going to need to pay the piper.

I'm sure it varies from underwriter to underwriter, but 100 hrs sounds like a high estimate. I recall talking to folks and hearing around 20 hrs. That might vary with the size of the boat or the size of the jump.

 

[bowball]

Whether you climb the ladder traditionally with successively larger boats, or you jump straight in and pay a captain to train you more formally. Either way, there is a cost of entry into larger boats and you're going to need to pay the piper.

I'm sure it varies from underwriter to underwriter, but 100 hrs sounds like a high estimate. I recall talking to folks and hearing around 20 hrs. That might vary with the size of the boat or the size of the jump.

Mine was 100 hours, but I’m sure it’s situation specific.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

You might get some suggestions of where and who to ask if you tell us where you are , just roughly.

I googled E-burg and got nothing including some disclaimers.

Making an assumption here but his profile is just “inland” from the Seattle-Tacoma area.

There are several outfits that do training on their boats, in Puget Sound, which you might find useful, but for insurance they will likely require actual training on your boat, so as said your broker or insurance broker could make some suggestions and referrals.

 

[Hippocampus]

Not one to hire captains would note there’s another approach. Combination of 2 footitis and crewing. This was the traditional way to learn. I’ve crewed (and hope to continue to crew) throughout my boating life. Every skipper does things slightly differently and every captain has something to teach you. Many small vessel professional captains have my way or the highway attitude and have doing things for untold decades incorrectly or inefficiently. Being exposed to different ways of doing things and different teaching styles has real benefits. Have learned a lot from both crew and captains.

By slowly expanding the size and complexity of the boat as well as the extent of the cruise and exposure to weather or other adverse situations you aren’t ever biting off more than you can safely chew. There’s much to say for gradually increasing vessel size and your horizons.

In sail have sailed everything from small wet boats to 86’+ monsters (did have the live aboard skipper with me and he was shoulder close when docking). Still over the years feel confident I can get on a sailboat look at the rig and spaghetti and sail it as far as it can go. Now switched to power. Currently have no ticket but got a significant discount on the insurance premium due to experience. In my mind I’m a total newbie with much to learn. Still I got a discount although I have no significant experience on owning a cruising power boat of any size so don’t think that’s truly a requirement.

Think a lot of people have a dream. Buy a boat too big for them to feel confident on. Boating then means stressing so it’s not fun but rather a huge expense. The dream turns into a nightmare and they drop out of boating after a couple of years.

Others are clueless and think a few days or weeks with a hired teacher means they hav the skill set. Some figure out that’s not true. But some don’t so are unprepared when the fecal matter hits the spinning blade. They get hurt or hurt their boat.

Sure you can get insured on your big boat after time with a hired captain or a few progressively more advanced courses but think on multiple levels you’d be better served gradually increasing boat size and spectrum of use as crew and as captain. As PS has said elsewhere nothing teaches as well as experience. I would add along with tutelage and support during the experience.

I ignore prior courses taken and even level of captain licensing when choosing crew. Much more interested in references, boats owned and experience as well as specialized skills (mechanical, electrical, electronics etc.)

 

[fgarriso]

You didn't say in your post what size boat your trying to get experience on, and/or insured. In most cases people work their way up in size and GT. Say 20-25', then 30-40' and 50 to 60'. Also you didn't talk about what waters you are planning to operate in Lakes, Inland, Near Coastal, open Ocean.

If you take classes from USCG Auxiliary that will go a long ways with your insurance provider. The instructors there are probably going to be licensed, and can make referrals for training captains. Don't expect to do this in a couple of weeks.

GOOD LUCK

 

[BandB]

Mine was 100 hours, but I’m sure it’s situation specific.

However, it's not a bad number to go for, even if not required.

 

[Boulton20]

I want to thank all for your input! The education never stops. Has anyone have any experience with, Anacortes Yacht charters and the courses they provide? I'm about to drop the money on their twin engine class and was wondering if anyone here has delt with these folks?

 

[amapola]

Chapman has a school in Stewart Florida. They will train you on your boat or on one of their boats.

 

[Mark Laurnen]

Hippocampus, I like your post. I agree with all you said. I don’t think there is any completely reliable way to gain experience without putting in the hours. “Good judgement comes from experience … experience comes from bad judgement.”

 

[bowball]

Hippocampus, I like your post. I agree with all you said. I don’t think there is any completely reliable way to gain experience without putting in the hours. “Good judgement comes from experience … experience comes from bad judgement.”

Common pilot’s saying: “you hope to fill up your bucket of skill before your bucket of luck runs out.”

Oddly, around 500 hours was the “killing zone,” where you start to get overconfident but don’t yet have the needed experience.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

I want to thank all for your input! The education never stops. Has anyone have any experience with, Anacortes Yacht charters and the courses they provide? I'm about to drop the money on their twin engine class and was wondering if anyone here has delt with these folks?

I have, we charter from them every year or two or three depending on what we have going on for vacation plans. I’ve ever only had instruction before our first charter when it was required, but other aspects of their operation are spot on. Their training captains are independent contractors btw, and the instructional boats are usually a Grand Banks 36’ unless you negotiate (talk your way into) for something bigger…or you are actually taking instruction on a boat you are about to charter.

 

[garychurch]

Went from no a 27’ to a 64’. Insurance required 100 hours with a Captain they approved and a subsequent sign off letter from that Captain that I was now qualified to handle the boat after the 100 hours of instruction and supervision.

No issues Captain was $300 per day plus expenses.

 

[bowball]

Is there readily available insurance for liability only? Or does that have the same experience issues I assume?

 

[AlanT]

My experience: With a good resume starting sailing on others boats as a teenager I worked my way up as an owner as an adult from 1982. 33' Sail - 34' Sail - 28' Single Engine Motor - 49' Sail - Bayliner 4788 Twin - 72' Twin. The last jump was the first time I faced resistance from Insurance and my broker had to shop around a bit. However found me coverage with Chubb which also insures my properties. The only caveat with the coverage was that my deductible was doubled for the first year. This seemed fair.
~A

 

[Shrew]

Is there readily available insurance for liability only? Or does that have the same experience issues I assume?

Comprehensive protects your asset from yourself and other people (or outside influences)

Liability protects other people's assets from YOU.

So the instruction/captain hrs is typically required for both types of insurance coverage.

 

[Pau Hana]

Comprehensive protects your asset from yourself and other people (or outside influences)

Liability protects other people's assets from YOU.

So the instruction/captain hrs is typically required for both types of insurance coverage.

Absolutely correct.