Gas vs Diesel

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"FF it would largely depend on price don't ya think?"

Not really , for most displacement cruisers GAS is a far better choice.

1/3 the install cost , 1/4 the maint cost (assuming cheap injectors not $1,000ea electric jobs) with a per mile /per hour fuel bill that is very similar.

Diesel is outstanding where yearly engine hours are high , or longer range is desired.

As we get more 100HP 1 -2 liter diesels from the auto side for marinization the diesel costs might get lower , BUT the modern small auto diesel comes with a big unrepairable computer .

A nice 6 cylinder gas engine with a 500CFM 2 bbl carb would be ideal for lots of modest cruisers.

One would need to look at the gauges to see if it were on.
 
Don't know if you've seen the TT35. This is with the standard twin Suzuki 60hp outboards. Having boated primarily in Florida, the low draft of 16" appeals. The fuel efficiency is pretty interesting, too.

TT35 Key Features - Great Harbour Trawlers

TT35 Test Report - Great Harbour Trawlers

TT 35 Performance - Great Harbour Trawlers

That is quite an attractive concept. Those 60 hp Suzi swing a 14" prop. To get the boat draft just 2 inch more than the prop dia. is saying something!

Are you fitting with a lot of solar? Or, genset? Or headed from dock to dock. I'm quite intriqued with this one.
 
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That is quite an attractive concept. Those 60 hp Suzi swing a 14" prop. To get the boat draft just 2 inch more than the prop dia. is saying something!

Are you fitting with a lot of solar? Or, genset? Or headed from dock to dock. I'm quite intriqued with this one.

What I like about the Suzuki DF60 is it weighs less than 250 pounds.

If I were to order a TT35, I would go with solar and try to convince them to equip the boat with LiFePO batteries as an option. Not sure you can get around without a generator if you plan to be on the hook. The alternator on the DF60 is only 19amps but there are two them.
 
Don't know if you've seen the TT35. This is with the standard twin Suzuki 60hp outboards. Having boated primarily in Florida, the low draft of 16" appeals. The fuel efficiency is pretty interesting, too.

Where does your delivery stand?
 
Okay, fair enough. Wish they put the brand name on the columns. It would be nice to read more about that boat.

Boat has two 300hp outboards. 50mph sounds about right. Boat in the middle column.
 
I own a gas boat 27' Express, and a Diesel Trawler 34' D/C. I'm constantly fiddling with the gas boat, trying to make it run "just right".

A planing hull at low speed is a pig, it wallows around and won't track straight. On a plane in calm seas, when its running perfectly, it's awesome.

All the marinas I know sell Ethanol free gas, I have had zero problems with fuel going bad. Everyone I know with a gas boat on a trailer filling up at the gas station has problems in the Spring. Marina gas costs more for a reason...

Both of my boats are cheap pieces of junk (Bayliner and Marine Trader) and I have a blast with both of them, without spending a fortune.

So by all means, get a boat, any boat, and enjoy working on it and running it.
 
A planing hull at low speed is a pig, it wallows around and won't track straight. On a plane in calm seas, when its running perfectly, it's awesome.

Same experience with our Hurricane.


All the marinas I know sell Ethanol free gas, I have had zero problems with fuel going bad. Everyone I know with a gas boat on a trailer filling up at the gas station has problems in the Spring. Marina gas costs more for a reason...

Some of the gas stations in FL sell ethanol free but it is more expensive than premium and only 87 octane. It is popular for boats and yard equipment but I prefer to get 89 octane with Valvetech at the marinas.

Last I looked, ethanol free gas at the marina was 50% higher than diesel.
 
Not all planing hulls in the displacement mode are pigs.

Ones with small keels or good deep vees track pretty well in my experience.

Some with tunnels, even better.
 
Kudos. Best life decision I ever made was no non-house debt. Nothing feels better than paying for a toy like a boat or a car with cash.

There is something that feels better. When you sell it and get to keep the cash.
 
Not all planing hulls in the displacement mode are pigs.

Ones with small keels or good deep vees track pretty well in my experience.

Some with tunnels, even better.

Our twin screw Tolly has small center keel. Tracks well at any speed. Rack and pinion steering as well as two relatively large rudders makes handling a joy while moving forward at any speed. Regarding backing and filling, for docking and other needs, I leave rudders centered and use throttle/trany means to do whatever I want with the boat. She's very responsive. Similar to handling a full-track tractor. Most of those type tractors have no steering mechanism per say... just forward/reverse and throttle.

Happy Boat Handling Daze! - Art :speed boat:
 
Art- If your boat handles so well, how did you end up with the bow shoved up in the marsh?



just kidding.....
 
Art- If your boat handles so well, how did you end up with the bow shoved up in the marsh?

just kidding.....

Practice my friend! :dance:

We often sit like that in Delta Sloughs. Bow nudged into soft marsh, 15+ feet deep to stern. Great for swimming. Steep drop off... by mid boat the water is over 10' deep. Depth sounder is my close companion on the bridge! Our Tolly only draws 2' 10".
 
The comments on planing boats being pigs at slow speed just shows a limited exposure to planing boats. Some may be, but our planing boats are definitely not.

As to ethanol, we're lucky too that in FL there's no problem getting ethanol free but there are states with no gas without ethanol so like many things it's all subject to location.
 
I think it depends on what you're used to.

A full keel semi displacement single screw trawler tracks extremely straight at low speed compared to any planing hull except a cat or tunnel hull... The same is true for a full keel sailboat.

A twin definitely tracks better at slow speed than a single regardless of hull shape.

The worst handling boat - in my opinion - is the twin outdrive, but plenty of people swear by them....
 
Not sure about you, but as a pro captain for 17 years for marinas, dealerships, private instruction and deliveries (read having run hundreds of boats of all kinds)...I strongly disagree with tbe general statement on planing hulls.

And definitely that a twin will track better than a single.

Can't be sure but doesn't your second paragraph sort of conflict with your third?
 
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Depends on how far split toward outer sides of boat twin o/d's are... actually same thing with through hull shaft twin props. Wider the better for "tractor-track" like transmission shift [opposite prop direction] maneuverings.

With through hull props it is also good to have fairly large rudders.
 
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I have twin inboard Palmer marinized International 392 gas engines in the boat.
Over the years I have had a few E10 related problems.
But they were mostly overcome by using Marine Stabil.
Ethanol facilitates the growth of acetobacter in the gas, which creates acids and degrades metal parts and the fuel. Use a stabilizer as it kills the bugs growing in today's Ethanol laced gasoline.

Another improvement which I recently made is to use a VOPR style emission fuel fill. It maintains not more than 1psi in the fuel tank which prevents humid air from getting in the tank which allows acetobacter to grow.
Such a cap almost always maintains a slight positive pressure in the tank, so there is no chance humid air can enter the tank.

If the tank would go under a vacuum like if it gets cold after being hot, the cap vent lets in some air. And since there is always a slight vapor pressure to gasoline, most of the time the cap will remain sealed.

So it is similar then to your car, and you do not need a charcoal cannister. You also do need an Attwood fuel demand valve on the tank pickup tube to prevent the slightly pressurized tank from potentially leaking fuel out. This valve permits no fuel flow unless a suction demand exists generated by the engine fuel pump.
Perko also sells fuel demand tank valves, but the Attwood is easy to get.

I had a good discussion and posted links etc.. here about doing this for my boat.

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169365
So you can use E10 in boats, if your careful. But yeah I would prefer pure gasoline over E10. A slightly sealed tank will also preserve the volatile parts of the gas from evaporating.

https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/...rosion-of-Copper-and-Steel-Alloys-Sowards.pdf

MultiBrief: Ethanol gasoline creates market for corrosion‑resistant additives

E-10 Alive: The corrosive damage ethanol gasoline does to your fuel pump

I think most everyone is aware diesel fuel grows things, but harder to imagine gasoline grows too due to Ethanol which is awful in fuel.

This is the way the new approved pressure relief system works in boats.
The other way vents all air thru a charcoal cannister with a wide open vent which does nothing to help preserve the fuel as it still remains exposed to moist air.


The grade valve and flvv valve are only useful for helping you to not overfill your tank. I use a stick and dont overfill because I check it.

So for me, my improvement was the vented fuel fill with VOPR cap, the inlet check valve (ICV) in the fill tube, and the fuel demand valve on the pickup tube.

I had to make sure my tank by it's design would hold 1 psi safely. Boat fuel tanks were and are required to hold 3 psi safely, and older tanks were qualified by the tank maker to that 3 psi standard before the USCG adopted their industry standard. I found this out from a USCG officer who was involved with the regulations before his retirement. USCG officially adopted the 3 psi standard static pressure test in 1978.

The ICV is a perko and actually sits in the rubber fuel fill hose. It is a very good one way valve that does open with even a 1/4 cup of fuel sitting on top. It simply prevents fuel from backing up the fill pipe from the tank. Maybe if boat was rocking fuel could well up from the tank and go all over the place. Perko sells for 1.5 and 2 inch rubber fuel hoses and useful for gas or diesel.

The vented fill directs vapor and any liquid fuel back to the fuel fill. Perko has vented fills for diesel or gas.

The Attwood fuel demand valve is a cool device that will not pass fuel unless a suction from a running engine exists on the fuel line, so it won't be spilling out fuel from carbs, broken fuel lines, leaky hoses etc, unless the engine is running....
 
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717 - Very Interesting, Thanks!


FYI - Video was good. Other links came up dead for me.
 
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717 - Very Interesting, Thanks!


FYI - Video was good. Other links came up dead for me.

Your welcome Art, sorry will fix the links. A chance exists if your not registered you cant see the offtopic smokstak link. I fixed the other links, I had copied them off my smokstak thread which does not copy the complete link.

Here are pics related to my changes.
You can buy the Perko VOPR cap, I had a sealed Perko EPA compliant cap which i modified to VOPR style. I had to adjust the vent spring pressure to a little less than 1 PSI by shortening it as it was originally used in a car's vented fill and was part of a Stant cap.

The vented Perko fuel fills come in 2 basic screw threads, both angled and straight.
One set is EPA compliant, and the cap is either sealed or VOPR and those 2 type caps are interchangeable onto the EPA compliant vented fuel fill.
The EPA emissions caps spin click shut just like a car.

The other older vented fill uses a vented cap. You can't screw onto an EPA compliant fuel fill that vented cap. Uses a finer thread.

I also used Perko's lift ring that lifts the vented fill 3/8 higher as they recommend. It helps keep rain water from splashing up into the cap. Less of a problem with the EPA compliant fills as they are normally sealed.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=NVJBc1RPR2c0cHN4WnRXNTl6czhIUDBOWmdfNFd3
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=RGtwcWw5SDhvLWdZd0Iyc3VwSDJlZGtiV21HYnVn
 
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Your welcome Art, sorry will fix the links. A chance exists if your not registered you cant see the offtopic smokstak link

Palmer gas engines - What year are they? I used to be around boats with Palmers back in the early to late 60's. Have any photos?? :D
 
Palmer gas engines - What year are they? I used to be around boats with Palmers back in the early to late 60's. Have any photos?? :D
They are from 1970.
I have rebuilt both of them, did this in the boat.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=NVZlQTNmblNxOXJUd1JHT3dMUDRCR0EtQ2ZmeGxR

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=MXFfUjIzY0NXd080dWVyeTNQX0V3a2J2bWk3cGRR

Here I created a new Palmer exhaust adapter. The manifolds and riser are FWC. This adapter joins log manifold to riser.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=YlpKdHRzb3BTV1VOQlBxaUxZRDNUMmw0bEtoRVl3

I modded the riser to FWC, blocked the existing raw water outlet, brazed a bronze pipe on the end with a SS tube for salt water injection, brazed a galvanized elbow
to the top of riser where was a core plug. It has kept four risers good since 1999. This type riser design was easy to modify.

The red hose is raw water, the black is FWC circuit.
 

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717 - TY So Much! Quite the photo gallery during Palmer rebuilds/repairs. Unless I'm mistaken you have the Egg Harbor - Correct??
 
I also suffered from "Gas Diesel Analysis Paralysis",
here is my perspective:
essentially my goal was to find a good simple boat, do anchor out on weekends and do the loop at a later stage. Maintenance, operating cost safety etc. where my prime concerns. I ended up defining the ideal boat as a trawler, single engine diesel.
eventually I found a single Diesel Mainship 390, in hind sight this was the best choice and I am happy to have gone with the single diesel.
3 of my friends and I travelled the length of Georgian Bay in similar sized boats, 2 had twin gas sedan bridges, 1 a twin diesel. I was the only displacement hull.
I was always the last to arrive, my boat cut safely through rough waters and saved a ton of gas money.
6kts 2gph, 8kts 3gph, 10kts 9gph, max speed 12kts @ 13gph
my twin gas friends spend C$ 3000, whilst I burned C$1000


I enjoy the simplicity, accessibility and reliability.
The argument to myself opting for a single as opposed to a twin was accessibility and the fact that its a lot less money to keep it in the best shape ever. regularly changing all the filters, using the best oil and generally keeping this engine in top shape. (I been flying single engine airplanes for 37 years and the same argument holds true)


Being the last boat to arrive has benefits also:
The arrival drinks are handed to us as soon as we arrived,
the other boats had selected a good spot, set the anchors and got ready for me to raft up to them
all we had to do is throw the lines and toast with my friends
Just my 2 cents
Cheers
 
td - Sounds like 10 cents to me! Good going!!
 
When one gets a big boat frequently the cost of gasoline at 2X diesel it just becomes too much. With my Willard a gas engine would burn less than 2gph. I'm a fairly poor man and that would be acceptable to me. With a 40' Willard and at least 4gph it suddenly would be too much. The diesel would be a must.

With a 20' boat (even a planing one) gasoline would be just fine. I varies a lot w boat type, usage plus the owners circumstances and attitudes.
 
I know and have experienced all the pros and cons of gas vs. diesel. The one thing that will always push me toward diesel, in a boat where it would be appropriate, is the obvious volatility and explosive difference between the two fuels. I am willing to pay the extra cost in purchase and have the extra weight for that piece of mind. I know that if one is careful and maintains all well gas can be safe but not as safe as diesel. I consider enclosed boats with gas inboards potential bombs and I don't like sitting on bombs. Just my opinion and I am sure plenty will disagree.
 
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