Getting weird with my search

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

I like 1,2 and 3, but the Albin is my favorite but then again I am a trawler guy and like the vintage look. My buddy gave me some good advice when I was boat shopping, he has a CHB 36 and said don't get anything smaller than a 38' if you plan on two or three people going on trips for more than a few days. They are large people and I am not sure about the beam of his boat but am guessing it's 12 something.

Get a duel engine or a single with a thruster and spend time on the water with a captain until your confident docking by yourself. That's what I did, it was well worth the money, I went from a 24cc to a 43 foot trawler.

Hmmm - You may be the first "vote" for the Albin. (Not a democracy...A benevolent dictatorship for sure.) I will look at it again.

The training is happening for sure. But first... the boat!

 

[Carl Martin]

The Eastbay looks like a Downeaster but it's not. It's got a stepped planing hull & is designed to go fast & drink a lot of fuel. The Wilbur is a true Downeaster with a soft chined skeg built hull. This is a seaworthy boat with a full keel that will track like it's on rails at any speed. Both Eastbay & Wilbur have good reputations & are well built boats.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

The Eastbay looks like a Downeaster but it's not. It's got a stepped planing hull & is designed to go fast & drink a lot of fuel. The Wilbur is a true Downeaster with a soft chined skeg built hull. This is a seaworthy boat with a full keel that will track like it's on rails at any speed. Both Eastbay & Wilbur have good reputations & are well built boats.

Carl - it seems like you know these boats well. Can you run either of them (well) at sub planing speeds? I am a sailor (soon to be ex) and kind of like the idea of running a fast boat slowly at times for less noise, less fuel consumption, less pounding etc. I am flashing back to my childhood watching water skiing boaters trying to "get on a plane" with their bows high in the air... ick.

I am likely barking up the wrong tree: Why buy, maintain and feed those beasts? Get a single diesel and get up a little earlier. Get where you are going at the same time and enjoy the sunrise...

Thanks for your help here sir!

 

[Derik]

Sounds to me like you need an 80's Trawler. Simple engine design, no turbo, low HP fuel misers. I went from a 30 knot boat cruise speed to an 8 knot boat cruise speed, no regrets the slow trawler burns less fuel at 43 feet than my 24 CC!

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Sounds to me like you need an 80's Trawler. Simple engine design, no turbo, low HP fuel misers. I went from a 30 knot boat cruise speed to an 8 knot boat cruise speed, no regrets the slow trawler burns less fuel at 43 feet than my 24 CC!

By 80s trawler, you mean (and no disrespect intended) a Leaky Teeky? or Grand Banks knock off I presume. I hear all of the disparaging remarks, and yet people who own them seem to like them quite well. They are all over the place in the PNW, with quality and condition all over the place as well. Anything in particular you would be targeting? I really appreciate your weighing in.

 

[Derik]

Here's a generalization of the decades for 30 plus feet sport fishers and trawlers with diesel engines.

1960-wood boats, all slow all leaked a few engine choices.

1970's Fiberglass made its way into boating, most boats still used a lot of wood especially earlier 70's. lots of teak decks and trim to keep up. Good strong hulls lots of maintenance on the exterior. Engines for the most part were pretty simple with the start of many configurations and transmission choices.

1980's Fiberglass hulls with wood used for some structural supports but mostly cancelled under fiberglass. Interiors had rich wood finishes but not much on the exterior and most decks by mid 80's were fiberglass. Engines were simple for the most part with many more choices in manufactures. The Best Era for a Taiwanese Trawlers. MHO

1990's Wood used for exterior trim only not sure about what the used structurally but my 1999 Cobia CC had some wood under fiberglass inside the hull bulkheads and stringers. Engines became more complicated with Turbos, and hulls designs changed for speed thus killing the economy of most diesel boats, compared to the 1980's.

So if you include in your search Diesel Trawlers say 1978-1988 or so you will find some really nice boats within your 150K budget and you won't have to worry about fuel prices just time.

I realize boat buying is a lot of personal taste and experience, but to me for simplicity and cost of ownership the ten year span of late 70's to late 80's is the best.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Here's a generalization of the decades for 30 plus feet sport fishers and trawlers with diesel engines.

1960-wood boats, all slow all leaked a few engine choices.

1970's Fiberglass made its way into boating, most boats still used a lot of wood especially earlier 70's. lots of teak decks and trim to keep up. Good strong hulls lots of maintenance on the exterior. Engines for the most part were pretty simple with the start of many configurations and transmission choices.

1980's Fiberglass hulls with wood used for some structural supports but mostly cancelled under fiberglass. Interiors had rich wood finishes but not much on the exterior and most decks by mid 80's were fiberglass. Engines were simple for the most part with many more choices in manufactures. The Best Era for a Taiwanese Trawlers. MHO

1990's Wood used for exterior trim only not sure about what the used structurally but my 1999 Cobia CC had some wood under fiberglass inside the hull bulkheads and stringers. Engines became more complicated with Turbos, and hulls designs changed for speed thus killing the economy of most diesel boats, compared to the 1980's.

So if you include in your search Diesel Trawlers say 1978-1988 or so you will find some really nice boats within your 150K budget and you won't have to worry about fuel prices just time.

I realize boat buying is a lot of personal taste and experience, but to me for simplicity and cost of ownership the ten year span of late 70's to late 80's is the best.

Well that just saved a whole lot of time! Off to Yachtworld to waste a whole lot of time!!

Thanks!

 

[Carl Martin]

Carl - it seems like you know these boats well. Can you run either of them (well) at sub planing speeds? I am a sailor (soon to be ex) and kind of like the idea of running a fast boat slowly at times for less noise, less fuel consumption, less pounding etc. I am flashing back to my childhood watching water skiing boaters trying to "get on a plane" with their bows high in the air... ick.

I am likely barking up the wrong tree: Why buy, maintain and feed those beasts? Get a single diesel and get up a little earlier. Get where you are going at the same time and enjoy the sunrise...

Thanks for your help here sir!

With soft chines & a deep keel the Wilbur will run very efficiently at displacement hull speeds. I prefer to call the Wilbur a Lobster Boat. The label Downeaster is like the label trawler, so overused it's just about meaningless. IMHO the lobster boat hull is the perfect cruising hull shape unless you're crossing oceans. Very seaworthy & will run efficiently at literally any speed with the top speed limited only by the amount of horse power you throw at it.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

With soft chines & a deep keel the Wilbur will run very efficiently at displacement hull speeds. I prefer to call the Wilbur a Lobster Boat. The label Downeaster is like the label trawler, so overused it's just about meaningless. IMHO the lobster boat hull is the perfect cruising hull shape unless you're crossing oceans. Very seaworthy & will run efficiently at literally any speed with the top speed limited only by the amount of horse power you throw at it.

Probably perfect for us, but for the fact that it is in Alaska, and the country between us is closed and it looks like it may stay closed...

Patience!

 

[Art]

Here's a generalization of the decades for 30 plus feet sport fishers and trawlers with diesel engines.

1960-wood boats, all slow all leaked a few engine choices.

1970's Fiberglass made its way into boating, most boats still used a lot of wood especially earlier 70's. lots of teak decks and trim to keep up. Good strong hulls lots of maintenance on the exterior. Engines for the most part were pretty simple with the start of many configurations and transmission choices.

a1980's Fiberglass hulls with wood used for some structural supports but mostly cancelled under fiberglass. Interiors had rich wood finishes but not much on the exterior and most decks by mid 80's were fiberglass. Engines were simple for the most part with many more choices in manufactures. The Best Era for a Taiwanese Trawlers. MHO

1990's Wood used for exterior trim only not sure about what the used structurally but my 1999 Cobia CC had some wood under fiberglass inside the hull bulkheads and stringers. Engines became more complicated with Turbos, and hulls designs changed for speed thus killing the economy of most diesel boats, compared to the 1980's.

So if you include in your search Diesel Trawlers say 1978-1988 or so you will find some really nice boats within your 150K budget and you won't have to worry about fuel prices just time.

I realize boat buying is a lot of personal taste and experience, but to me for simplicity and cost of ownership the ten year span of late 70's to late 80's is the best.

Agreed! "... late 70's to late 80's is the best."

Having professionally worked on boats in boatyards in mid to latter 1960's.
Owned boats age range 1948 to 1989, factory built new wood and glass boats in very early 70's: I categorically say that our 1977 Tollycraft is one of the best built production line boats I've ever come across.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Agreed! "... late 70's to late 80's is the best."

Having professionally worked on boats in boatyards in mid to latter 1960's.
Owned boats age range 1948 to 1989, factory built new wood and glass boats in very early 70's: I categorically say that our 1977 Tollycraft is one of the best built production line boats I've ever come across.

Ah, back to tollys. That is one of the boats I started out looking at! I will re-visit. Very active group here in the PNW. I had actually zeroed in on a model that I liked before the Nordic caught my eye. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[sledge]

Greg, I sort of skimmed the four pages of this thread, did anyone answer your question about fear of outdrives?
If not, i think the likely answer is the many logs up in the PNW can knock off an outdrive. I quickly googled a Volvo outdrive lower unit refurbished and it was $4,000 (!)
Nordics, ATs and some other single engine boats have a full keel protected prop which (IMHO) makes me feel very safe when there's rubbish in the water. I agree also with others that maintenance on two engines can be extremely challenging. After 4 years with an AT and single Cummins, I'm still so pleased every time i have to go into the engine room and all the space I have on BOTH sides of the engine
my only other comment is despite the pandemic, the greatest value is to find a way to get on some of the boats you're looking at. A half hour on board is way better than a thousand yachtworld photos....

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Greg, I sort of skimmed the four pages of this thread, did anyone answer your question about fear of outdrives?
If not, i think the likely answer is the many logs up in the PNW can knock off an outdrive. I quickly googled a Volvo outdrive lower unit refurbished and it was $4,000 (!)
Nordics, ATs and some other single engine boats have a full keel protected prop which (IMHO) makes me feel very safe when there's rubbish in the water. I agree also with others that maintenance on two engines can be extremely challenging. After 4 years with an AT and single Cummins, I'm still so pleased every time i have to go into the engine room and all the space I have on BOTH sides of the engine
my only other comment is despite the pandemic, the greatest value is to find a way to get on some of the boats you're looking at. A half hour on board is way better than a thousand yachtworld photos....

Thank you - No one had actually answered that question. Good answer! My home overlooks elliot bay, and there is a lot of storm debris out there! I would love to get on a few of these, but as you say Covid makes it a lot tougher. I think the NT /AT is the perfect design for the PNW (They are from here after all) but man are they spendy. Looks like a really good lobster boat like the Wilbur would be great too, but there is one "near" here. Only about 1000 miles away by boat. Granted, the delivery would be the epic inside passage!!! Can't really get there to look at it as a practical matter though.

I appreciate you weighing in!

 

[rslifkin]

To add to the outdrive thing, they make engine maintenance tough as the engine(s) are jammed up against the transom, and if twins, usually very close together. Plus, there are corrosion concerns, more leak points (bellows), etc. on the drives.

As far as twins go, even in a 35 - 40 footer, engine room workability varies a lot. Some have awkward access to certain areas, or tanks outboard of the engines that make things challenging. Others are not bad at all. So I wouldn't write off twins on maintenance access concerns as a blanket rule, but definitely take a good look at any boat in question to see what the access looks like.

As an example of a worst case, my dock neighbor has a 40 foot Formula with twin sterndrives. The inboard exhaust manifolds on the engines are 2 inches apart. And the engines are all the way aft. The deck above them lifts, so you have unlimited height, but you're basically standing over the engines with very little real access to anything. I don't know how you're even supposed to change the spark plugs on the inboard side of each engine...

On my own boat (38 feet) with engines the same physical size as the Formula example, another 6 inches of height in the engine room would make things easier, but it's not bad as-is. There's nothing outboard of the engines other than the mufflers in the aft corners of the engine room, so there's plenty of space to sit out there (slightly awkwardly on the angled hull bottom) and work on stuff. You have to crawl a bit to get over there, but it's not anything terrible, and there's no tight squeezes. For basic fluid checks and such, you're down in the center of the engine room (which is where you climb down into), which has a bit more height, and you've got a 2.5 foot wide space between the engines to work in.


Example of outboard space in my engine room is shown below. The picture was taken with me sitting next to the front end of the stbd engine looking aft at the muffler and aft bulkhead of the engine room. To give some sizing perspective, that muffler is about a foot in diameter, the inlet pipe at the bottom of it is 5 inches. Muffler is about 2 feet tall, so height outboard ranges from about 2.5 feet at the outer edge to about 3 feet right against the engine (due to hull deadrise). Height in the center of the engine room is about 3.5 feet I think.

 

[Cliff Meima]

I thing the Wilber is the boat for you.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

To add to the outdrive thing, they make engine maintenance tough as the engine(s) are jammed up against the transom, and if twins, usually very close together. Plus, there are corrosion concerns, more leak points (bellows), etc. on the drives.

As far as twins go, even in a 35 - 40 footer, engine room workability varies a lot. Some have awkward access to certain areas, or tanks outboard of the engines that make things challenging. Others are not bad at all. So I wouldn't write off twins on maintenance access concerns as a blanket rule, but definitely take a good look at any boat in question to see what the access looks like.

As an example of a worst case, my dock neighbor has a 40 foot Formula with twin sterndrives. The inboard exhaust manifolds on the engines are 2 inches apart. And the engines are all the way aft. The deck above them lifts, so you have unlimited height, but you're basically standing over the engines with very little real access to anything. I don't know how you're even supposed to change the spark plugs on the inboard side of each engine...

On my own boat (38 feet) with engines the same physical size as the Formula example, another 6 inches of height in the engine room would make things easier, but it's not bad as-is. There's nothing outboard of the engines other than the mufflers in the aft corners of the engine room, so there's plenty of space to sit out there (slightly awkwardly on the angled hull bottom) and work on stuff. You have to crawl a bit to get over there, but it's not anything terrible, and there's no tight squeezes. For basic fluid checks and such, you're down in the center of the engine room (which is where you climb down into), which has a bit more height, and you've got a 2.5 foot wide space between the engines to work in.


Example of outboard space in my engine room is shown below. The picture was taken with me sitting next to the front end of the stbd engine looking aft at the muffler and aft bulkhead of the engine room. To give some sizing perspective, that muffler is about a foot in diameter, the inlet pipe at the bottom of it is 5 inches. Muffler is about 2 feet tall, so height outboard ranges from about 2.5 feet at the outer edge to about 3 feet right against the engine (due to hull deadrise). Height in the center of the engine room is about 3.5 feet I think.

Thanks for this - The last guy that worked on my sailboat said basically that no one wants to work on a small sailboat diesel because of the access. A real problem! Thanks for weighing in!

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

I thing the Wilber is the boat for you.

In a normal year, I would have been up to look at it by now... but Juneau is a long way from Seattle in the winter! Longer still with covid raging!

 

[Art]

Ah, back to Tollys. That is one of the boats I started out looking at! I will re-visit. Very active group here in the PNW. I had actually zeroed in on a model that I liked before the Nordic caught my eye. Thanks for the reminder!

There are many fine good boat builds available on the used market. Many poorly built ones too! When you get into "used boats"... regarding either the good or bad original builds, it comes down to previous owner maintenance. In other words... has the boat been made love to, or, misused and allowed to deteriorate. Those two basically opposite directions of previous boat ownership/treatment each have a grand amount of details to be aware of. "The Devils in the Details" LOL. That is why it is always best to [and/or] have yourself a broad back ground in boats as well as get a surveyor with a broad background. That said: A lot of the reason for boat choice also depends on your budget for both $$$'s invested and personal time expended... especially soon after purchase as well as in the begining years of ownership.

What design/year Tolly were you looking at? PM me if you have questions; I've learned considerable amount having owned [and often used] a Tolly since 2008.

Regarding out drives: I've read some items on this thread what others have mentioned regarding o/d's... I agree with each. For an addition, I simply would like to add an old saying by marine mechanics: "Out drive deterioration in salt water is like an Alka-Seltzer tab in a glass of water." For that and many other reasons... I do not recommend out drives other than for relatively small ski-boat and fishing boat types that are usually stored out of water on a trailer or other type lift. I believe that if a large boat with o/d's were set up so the o/d could be completely lifted out of water whenever boat remained docked... then, the Alka-Seltzer similarity would no longer apply. However, in my over 6 decades of being around boats - I've not seen but one boat with o/d that actually did not touch the water while docked.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

There are many fine good boat builds available on the used market. Many poorly built ones too! When you get into "used boats"... regarding either the good or bad original builds, it comes down to previous owner maintenance. In other words... has the boat been made love to, or, misused and allowed to deteriorate. Those two basically opposite directions of previous boat ownership/treatment each have a grand amount of details to be aware of. "The Devils in the Details" LOL. That is why it is always best to [and/or] have yourself a broad back ground in boats as well as get a surveyor with a broad background. That said: A lot of the reason for boat choice also depends on your budget for both $$$'s invested and personal time expended... especially soon after purchase as well as in the begining years of ownership.

What design/year Tolly were you looking at? PM me if you have questions; I've learned considerable amount having owned [and often used] a Tolly since 2008.

Regarding out drives: I've read some items on this thread what others have mentioned regarding o/d's... I agree with each. For an addition, I simply would like to add an old saying by marine mechanics: "Out drive deterioration in salt water is like an Alka-Seltzer tab in a glass of water." For that and many other reasons... I do not recommend out drives other than for relatively small ski-boat and fishing boat types that are usually stored out of water on a trailer or other type lift. I believe that if a large boat with o/d's were set up so the o/d could be completely lifted out of water whenever boat remained docked... then, the Alka-Seltzer similarity would no longer apply. However, in my over 6 decades of being around boats - I've not seen but one boat with o/d that actually did not touch the water while docked.

I am pretty sure a single inboard diesel with a bow thruster and some captain's training is what we want. Not violently opposed to a twin, but leaning towards a single for budget reasons. Both in purchase and maintenance. I think I was looking at a boat similar to yours. Is there a 2 cabin version? Or maybe a Sedan / Europa? We don't have any friends we want on our boat for more than a day. Plus - any diesels? PM if chatting is easier. Thanks for your help!!

 

[Art]

I am pretty sure a single inboard diesel with a bow thruster and some captain's training is what we want. Not violently opposed to a twin, but leaning towards a single for budget reasons. Both in purchase and maintenance. I think I was looking at a boat similar to yours. Is there a 2 cabin version? Or maybe a Sedan / Europa? We don't have any friends we want on our boat for more than a day. Plus - any diesels? PM if chatting is easier. Thanks for your help!!

In the 34' Tollycraft version there are two main selections [a few other's exist wherein just the hull was purchased and a one-off was privately built]. One is the Sedan and the other is the Tri Cabin [such as we own]. Most 34's were fitted with twin 350 cid gas engines [such as ours]. A few had factory installed diesels and a few others have been refit with diesels.

Next size is the 37' Convertible Sedan [also a very limited number of the 37' Long Range Cruiser]. Most were with diesels, some have gas engines. Then the 40' Tri Cabin which is basically an enlarged model of our 34' Tri Cabin. 40'ers with diesels and gas engines came out of the factory. Up to this point of size increase twin engines were the design [some smaller Tolly's were single engine]. Most hulls had planing hard chine design, some in semi displacement design and some with at least nearly full displacement design. As decades past in the Tollycraft boat building factory Ed Monk's hull designs morphed through several configurations.

Then you can go into the Tollycraft 48" "Motor Yacht" design. A great boat! And, there are other larger model Tollycraft too! [visit the link in next paragraph]

Take a look at this link: Tolly Classified - Model Selection for pictures and stats on most Tollycraft boats. There were over 6,500 built before the shop closed in mid 1990's. In my experienced opinion these Tolly classic boats are top of the line for the used pleasure boat marine industry. There are other great boat builders too... Hatteras, Bertram, Grand Banks, Chris Craft, Egg Harbor... just to name a few!

Happy Boat Search DAZE!! - Art

 

[koliver]

Greg
After reading some of this thread, I think you have unfairly eliminated too much of the market by restricting your search to small boats.
You are in a 36 ft sailboat now, and want a change from that small boat, and are looking at small power boats.
When I was in a 37' sailboat, I started out looking at power up to 42', but never did find any in that size range that were enough larger than my sailboat to be worth the cost of the move up.
Once I started looking larger, the boat that I now own showed me how much better my boating could be by getting a larger boat. I could have ended up in something around 50' without regret, but I got enough in 44' to be happy in this size for the past 26 yrs.
A larger boat will get you away from any problems with access in the ER, will be big enough to be comfortable inside in lousy weather, large enough to care less about weather conditions when out in that lousy stuff, large enough to carry all those things you miss by being out on your boat,.....
Good luck on your search.

 

[bshanafelt]

on the wilbur, likely alot of barges coming back from SE may have room for shipping

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Greg
After reading some of this thread, I think you have unfairly eliminated too much of the market by restricting your search to small boats.
You are in a 36 ft sailboat now, and want a change from that small boat, and are looking at small power boats.
When I was in a 37' sailboat, I started out looking at power up to 42', but never did find any in that size range that were enough larger than my sailboat to be worth the cost of the move up.
Once I started looking larger, the boat that I now own showed me how much better my boating could be by getting a larger boat. I could have ended up in something around 50' without regret, but I got enough in 44' to be happy in this size for the past 26 yrs.
A larger boat will get you away from any problems with access in the ER, will be big enough to be comfortable inside in lousy weather, large enough to care less about weather conditions when out in that lousy stuff, large enough to carry all those things you miss by being out on your boat,.....
Good luck on your search.

Thanks Keith - I will expand my parameters a bit and see if anything catches my eye. Of course $$ comes into play too!

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

on the wilbur, likely alot of barges coming back from SE may have room for shipping

True - but... I would need to buy it sight unseen! Never having even seen a sistership.

 

[OldDan1943]

You want more storage space? You have determined the length you desire now look for a boat with a wide beam.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

You want more storage space? You have determined the length you desire now look for a boat with a wide beam.

I think an AT 34 would be just right!!!

 

[Art]

I think an AT 34 would be just right!!!

Dan - Here's your chance! Sell her ... or get great tax deduction!!

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

Dan - Here's your chance! Sell her ... or get great tax deduction!!

I could become a nonprofit pretty damn fast... Or you could just sell it at a huge loss! Let me know, I am happy to oblige!



G

 

[OldDan1943]

Dan - Here's your chance! Sell her ... or get great tax deduction!!

LOL not done with the upgrades, yet.
I want the next owner to be as proud of the boat as I am. I did add 5 cabinets and under berth storage. I have a custom made 'wing' at the helm station. Now, I am waiting for the right tech to install analog gauges on it. I never like the VesselView.

He is fortunate that he can visit Tomco (American Tug)and see what used boats are available, at their dock. There should be more used ATs on the left coast than on the east coast.

One thing every AT34/36, owner must realize, 'no matter how much perfume you put on the pig', it will never be fit to cross the ocean on its own bottom. (Everything I have done does not make up for only carrying 400 gal of fuel)
It has a CE rating of B, nothing is going to change that.

 

[Greg Salish Cruiser]

LOL not done with the upgrades, yet.
I want the next owner to be as proud of the boat as I am. I did add 5 cabinets and under berth storage. I have a custom made 'wing' at the helm station. Now, I am waiting for the right tech to install analog gauges on it. I never like the VesselView.

He is fortunate that he can visit Tomco (American Tug)and see what used boats are available, at their dock. There should be more used ATs on the left coast than on the east coast.

One thing every AT34/36, owner must realize, 'no matter how much perfume you put on the pig', it will never be fit to cross the ocean on its own bottom. (Everything I have done does not make up for only carrying 400 gal of fuel)
It has a CE rating of B, nothing is going to change that.

Standing by... We have a lovely /huge / lifetime of cruising "CE rating B" opportunity here in the PNW. Let me know when you get it perfect. I will step in with a lowball offer and a smile!