Greenline Hybrid: Electric Motor discussions

[ScottC]

Now that we have a new, dedicated area for Greenline/Solar/Hybrid discussion, I thought I would start this thread with an eye toward aggregating electric motor discussions (all models) - in order to make it easier for those that might be doing research in the future. Not sure if this type of "organization" will work or not, but will try and see what happens.

 

[Bruce H]

Hi Scott. I thought I had seen a discussion or document on changing the brake fluid for the clutch. I haven’t done this myself and I can’t find it now. We have a Hybrid 39 with the VolvoPenta 220, but I think the clutch system is the same on all Greenlines. Do you, or anyone else, have a link to or copy of those instructions? Many thanks in advance. As a follow, there is a plastic Y fitting on top of the clutch. One is attached to the line from the breake fluid reservoir and the other is unconnected. Is this unconnected ‘leg’ a bleed fitting? Hopefully I can put a hose from it to a collection container, but I don’t want to try to unscrews the ‘leg’ if that isn’t a bleed fitting.

 

[ScottC]

Hi Bruce,

Congrats on being a new Greenline 39 owner!

I'm 99.9% sure the clutch system on the relatively new GL39 is vastly different than on the early GL33's having VW Marine engines. Nevertheless, I have uploaded the document that discusses bleeding here, in case some of the procedure can be of use. DO take care to make sure you use the correct fluid. Don't assume it's the same as what's in this old document.

 

[Bruce H]

Use of fluid extractor to facilitate change of clutch fluid

Hi Scott,

Thanks again for the document. Yes, the procedure for changing the clutch fluid in the 39 Hybrid is the same as what is in the write-up for the 33. We found it very useful to attach a fluid extraction pump to the outlet of the valve. I pumped the extractor only a few times, much less than that needed for extraction of the motor oil, but this was sufficient to prevent air or fluid from backing up into the system when the exit valve was open and piston was released. With the pump in place and the valve opened with the wrenches, the fluid flowed on its own after a few pumps of the piston. In fact, once it sucked the reservoir dry, so I needed to keep an eye on that and shut off the valve before the reservoir emptied. Adding the fluid extraction pump converted this into a single person job, unlike the co-ordinated effort needed by two to open the valve, depress the piston, close the valve, release the piston, and repeat.

I also found out that brake fluid can not be mixed with engine oil for recycling. Since the manufacturer recommends not using brake fluid after it has been opened for 12 months because of moisture absorption, I will return the waste fluid to what is left in the opened container. I can take this waste to one of our county-run hazardous waste collection events and I will purchase a new container for next season.

Hopefully our experience will be helpful to others performing this task on their own. With the use of the fluid extraction pump, it was a relatively simple procedure.

 

[martyc]

Canbus reverse engineering.

I know that the communication from the HCU is using canbus and it goes to the DDI and that DB9 connector. Has anyone ever tried reverse engineering the canbus output?
I'd love to be able to see things like power on/off, rpm, temp etc.

 

[sMartin]

Hi Scott and Bruce,
Next month I will be buying a 2012 Greenline 33 Hybrid with two new battery packs from the original supplier. What you have talked about sounds like problems that can be solved. Do you have any experience of what kind of challenges I can expect when buying a ten year old Greenline 33 Hybrid from the Mediterranean. The boat looks very well maintained with 900 hours on the clock.
It seems to be the perfect boat for our use.
Can you give me any advice on where to look?
Thank you and the rest of the community in advance.
Martin

 

[ScottC]

My first concern would be the hybrid battery. But it sounds like you've got that one covered! I am a little confused that you state "two" battery packs. Does that mean you have 2x240AH LiPos? If so, I am jealous! I always wanted more range on electric

Other than the battery, I have the following thoughts for things to check on an older GL33:
1) Find out if the master and the slave hybrid hydraulic clutches have been replaced by the previous owner. If not, then you'd best plan on an additional $5k to have a professional/yard do this when the time comes. Parts are difficult to come by, but can be made up.

2) Check carefully in the forward cabin against the anchor locker bulkhead for any signs of water leakage on the "velour" sidewalls. This can be difficult to troubleshoot and stop. I'm in the process of doing this now. Have had some conversations with the current manufacturer, SVP, and they did inform me that some of the very early GL33's (e.g. 2010 at least) had a very few screws through the deck. These could be the source of water ingress. If the forward teak deck has to come up and be replaced, SVP can still get new teak "kits" from their vendor at least for another 1-2 years.


3) Check the rudder for wobbling and water ingress where the shaft comes into the cockpit. While the rudder bearing might be just fine, I found that the "bushing" holding the entire apparatus in place against the bottom needed to be re-packed in my case. Not horribly expensive, but can be a nuisance if you discover this while the boat is in the water and you want to stop annoying small amounts of water from accumulating in the bilge under the aft deck.


4) Carefully check the linkage where the gearshift cable connects to the engine. Right at the little "ball fitting" There can be some parts that, due to poor design, have worn and need to be replaced. The pieces are nothing that special and only worth a few dollars. A clever yard or mechanic can put together something that will work even better than the original. This is important to check. I know that there was a 2010 or 2011 GL33 that rammed a concrete pier (did not sink) because this part broke unexpectedly and the pilot could not take the boat out of reverse or slow the engine down. The factory (SeaWay at the time) sent out replacement parts to the dealers in the mail as a form of "recall".

5) Make sure to check the connecting pipe and valve between the fuel tanks for any signs of drippage. I have not had any problems with this, but I know of at least one GL33 that did.


6) Make sure you get all the instruction manuals from the previous owner. Especially the hybrid instruction manual. A hybrid boat is a lot more complicated than a diesel-only boat.

7) Make sure you understand who your closest Greenline dealer is...for support, information, etc and be able to order parts from the factory.

I can say, that over the 13 years that I've had my GL33, it's been, apart from what I've mentioned here, quite trouble free and enjoyable. Most of my time and $$$ have been spent on toys and enhancements.

 

[sMartin]

Dear Scott
Thank you for your advice. I've never been in a boat of this size with so much space. I'm 6'2" myself and can stand upright in the whole boat.
The actual owner is a Slovenian entrepreneur and a good friend of the owner of the Slovenian company www.metron.si that supplies the Greenines with lithium batteries. I suppose the price was right, so he took two of them. The new ones came in this year with LiFePo.
There are now 20kwh installed.
It's good to know you're not alone out there.
Have a nice evening
Martin

My first concern would be the hybrid battery. But it sounds like you've got that one covered! I am a little confused that you state "two" battery packs. Does that mean you have 2x240AH LiPos? If so, I am jealous! I always wanted more range on electric

Other than the battery, I have the following thoughts for things to check on an older GL33:
1) Find out if the master and the slave hybrid hydraulic clutches have been replaced by the previous owner. If not, then you'd best plan on an additional $5k to have a professional/yard do this when the time comes. Parts are difficult to come by, but can be made up.

2) Check carefully in the forward cabin against the anchor locker bulkhead for any signs of water leakage on the "velour" sidewalls. This can be difficult to troubleshoot and stop. I'm in the process of doing this now. Have had some conversations with the current manufacturer, SVP, and they did inform me that some of the very early GL33's (e.g. 2010 at least) had a very few screws through the deck. These could be the source of water ingress. If the forward teak deck has to come up and be replaced, SVP can still get new teak "kits" from their vendor at least for another 1-2 years.


3) Check the rudder for wobbling and water ingress where the shaft comes into the cockpit. While the rudder bearing might be just fine, I found that the "bushing" holding the entire apparatus in place against the bottom needed to be re-packed in my case. Not horribly expensive, but can be a nuisance if you discover this while the boat is in the water and you want to stop annoying small amounts of water from accumulating in the bilge under the aft deck.


4) Carefully check the linkage where the gearshift cable connects to the engine. Right at the little "ball fitting" There can be some parts that, due to poor design, have worn and need to be replaced. The pieces are nothing that special and only worth a few dollars. A clever yard or mechanic can put together something that will work even better than the original. This is important to check. I know that there was a 2010 or 2011 GL33 that rammed a concrete pier (did not sink) because this part broke unexpectedly and the pilot could not take the boat out of reverse or slow the engine down. The factory (SeaWay at the time) sent out replacement parts to the dealers in the mail as a form of "recall".

5) Make sure to check the connecting pipe and valve between the fuel tanks for any signs of drippage. I have not had any problems with this, but I know of at least one GL33 that did.


6) Make sure you get all the instruction manuals from the previous owner. Especially the hybrid instruction manual. A hybrid boat is a lot more complicated than a diesel-only boat.

7) Make sure you understand who your closest Greenline dealer is...for support, information, etc and be able to order parts from the factory.

I can say, that over the 13 years that I've had my GL33, it's been, apart from what I've mentioned here, quite trouble free and enjoyable. Most of my time and $$$ have been spent on toys and enhancements.

 

[sMartin]

Hi Scott
I had a phone call with the owner and all your items were useful. He is a very friendly person and a real perfectionist. I'm sure my family will be more than happy with the boat.
Are you still sailing in Greece?
We should get together and have a gin or two!
Regards
Martin

 

[ScottC]

Hi Scott
I had a phone call with the owner and all your items were useful. He is a very friendly person and a real perfectionist. I'm sure my family will be more than happy with the boat.
Are you still sailing in Greece?
We should get together and have a gin or two!
Regards
Martin

Two


Boat is on land for the winter in Lavrio (Olympic Marine). It's about 40nm east of Athens. Plan for next year is to head west and gradually work our way back to Sweden. Only part I'm sure of thus far is June-July: Corinth Canal, Ionian Sea. Rest of planning I will tackle in January.

 

[sMartin]

Hi Scott
We will start in Murter/Croatia in June heading to Maseille and then up the Rhone. What are your plans!
Maybe we will have the TWO soon! ��

 

[sMartin]

Hi Scott
We have changed our plans. We are now going to spend three weeks sailing the Mediterranean around Croatia, Istria and a trip to Venice. Then the boat will be transported by road to the Rhine. Some experienced sailors have urged me not to sail along the Italian coast because there is no shelter in case of rough weather.
We might meet on the way. You will probably hit the Rhine on your way north anyway.
Are you back in Greece now?
Greetings
Martin

 

[ScottC]

Hi Martin,

I am starting to do more detailed planning now.

Our original plan for summer 2024 was to leave Lavrio, Greece and somewhat retrace our path across southern Italy and up the west coast to Genova and over to Toulon, where we would leave the boat for the winter. We may still very well do that. BUT, what I'm taking a closer look at is going up the east coast of Italy as far as Vieste and crossing 60-65 nm to one of the closest Croatian islands. Then spend a lot of time in Croatia and work our way north up the coast. Slovenia. Venice. Possibly journey up the Po a bit?? Then have the boat transported from Venice to Genova by truck, ending in Toulon for the winter. I have been in communication with what appears to be a reputable company that has given me an offer. Not cheap, but doing this would allow us to see Croatia -- in depth -- without adding yet another year to our itinerary. [FONT=&quot]www.pastrellotrasporti.com
[/FONT]
The last I knew, one needed a special license (only available in Germany) to transit the Rhine. Perhaps you already have this. Because of this, we tend to avoid the Rhine in our planning.

I am not sure yet about getting from Toulon back to Sweden in 2025. We may well retrace ours steps up the Rhone and canals through France, Belgium, NL. We are also considering Canal du Midi, out and around Brittany, Normandy to Rotterdam and back into the canal system. BUT that I have to look into with great care. I don't want to do this if there are not adequate harbors in this region. I can only imagine the currents, weather, fog, etc are something one must be prepared to contend with. Then there's the occasional Orca.... I have to do a lot more reading on all of this and discuss with a former GL33 owner who kept his boat in that area.

You might also wish to contact Trawler Forum member "Lauriesail", who took his new-to-him GL33 from, I believe, Bari - to his home port in northern Sardinia.

 

[sMartin]

Hello Scott
In any case, this is a very big adventure you have ahead of you. We travelled all the way down the Rhine to the Netherlands in the summer of 2023. It's not a big deal. There are a few rules to follow. It is a wonderful journey. The Middle Rhine in particular, with its castles and palaces and its beautiful wine villages, is well worth a trip.
I will be happy to tell you how much it costs to transport the Greenline. We put the boat on the transporter in Koper, Slovenia. It's ideal for hauliers there and the cheapest. I know two boat brokers and restorers who often bring boats from the Mediterranean to Germany. They recommended it to me.
Hopefully it will be a nice summer in Germany. Maybe we'll go to Berlin in late summer. We'll see.

 

[sMartin]

Are there any VW TDI user around?

Hello Greenline pilots
do you have any VW TDI drivers? I got to know the man who was a customer advisor for marine diesels at the VW plant. He has a shop and he advises his customers. That made it easier for me to decide to buy a Greenline with a VW 150-5 TDI. If you need any information, I'll be happy to give it to you.

 

[sMartin]

Hi Martin,

I am starting to do more detailed planning now.

Our original plan for summer 2024 was to leave Lavrio, Greece and somewhat retrace our path across southern Italy and up the west coast to Genova and over to Toulon, where we would leave the boat for the winter. We may still very well do that. BUT, what I'm taking a closer look at is going up the east coast of Italy as far as Vieste and crossing 60-65 nm to one of the closest Croatian islands. Then spend a lot of time in Croatia and work our way north up the coast. Slovenia. Venice. Possibly journey up the Po a bit?? Then have the boat transported from Venice to Genova by truck, ending in Toulon for the winter. I have been in communication with what appears to be a reputable company that has given me an offer. Not cheap, but doing this would allow us to see Croatia -- in depth -- without adding yet another year to our itinerary. [FONT=&quot]www.pastrellotrasporti.com
[/FONT]
The last I knew, one needed a special license (only available in Germany) to transit the Rhine. Perhaps you already have this. Because of this, we tend to avoid the Rhine in our planning.

I am not sure yet about getting from Toulon back to Sweden in 2025. We may well retrace ours steps up the Rhone and canals through France, Belgium, NL. We are also considering Canal du Midi, out and around Brittany, Normandy to Rotterdam and back into the canal system. BUT that I have to look into with great care. I don't want to do this if there are not adequate harbors in this region. I can only imagine the currents, weather, fog, etc are something one must be prepared to contend with. Then there's the occasional Orca.... I have to do a lot more reading on all of this and discuss with a former GL33 owner who kept his boat in that area.

You might also wish to contact Trawler Forum member "Lauriesail", who took his new-to-him GL33 from, I believe, Bari - to his home port in northern Sardinia.

 

[sMartin]

Hello Scott

We now have our Greenline 33 and have already been sailing. It is now moored in Murter in the Hramina marina. We will be cruising around the Kornati islands for a week with our children at the end of May and then up the coast north to Koper for two weeks. From there we'll take a truck to the Rhine. The route around Italy is not entirely without danger. It's a great adventure, of course. Maybe you'll come to Murter around June 2nd, then we'll sail a bit together or at least have a glass of wine or two.

The Rhine is not that complicated. Two locks, 3-5 nautical miles downstream and easy-going. We'll be sailing from Mannheim to the Ijselmeer in the Netherlands in 2023. That was very nice.

If you want, I can clarify for you what kind of boat license you have and what you need for the Rhine.

Best regards
Martin

 

[ScottC]

Thank you for the offer/suggestion, sMartin!

Unfortunately, we won't launch until 4 June in Greece. I'm doing the detailed itinerary planning now and know this much:
Greece: 4-28 June
Albania: 28 June - 8 July
Montenegro: 8 July - 17 July
Croatia: 17 July - late August
Slovenia: Late August
Venice: 3-9 September
Truck transport from Venice to Genova: 9-10 September
Genova: 11-15 September
Genova - St. Mandrier sur Mer: 15-24 September
Haulout: 2 October

All weather permitting, of course...

We only transited the east coast of Italy as far north as Brindisi last year. From Brindisi around the "sole" and up the west coast to Genova, we've done and I would not consider it "high risk" if one keeps a careful eye on the weather to plan for 2-3 50nm days where there is no shelter between ports. The only thing we found scary about the Italian west coast is the marina prices!!! Our marina record was €215/nt (plus utilities) in Capri for a fairly crappy marina at that -- but it was the ONLY marina. We had to do it, though. Only spent 2 nights - which was entirely enough.

I will come back to you for more Rhine information when I get around to planning for 2025. Thank you for the offer!

 

[sMartin]

Hi Scott, as plans always do, we changed it. Now we are sailing along the Croatian coast heading for Venice. Actual position near Losinj.
Are you close?

 

[ScottC]

Hi Scott, as plans always do, we changed it. Now we are sailing along the Croatian coast heading for Venice. Actual position near Losinj.
Are you close?

We are still on the plan I outlined in post #18. Boat will be launched on Tuesday 4 June. So, unfortunately, we are a good ways behind you. Won't arrive in Croatia until 17 July.

 

[sMartin]

We are still on the plan I outlined in post #18. Boat will be launched on Tuesday 4 June. So, unfortunately, we are a good ways behind you. Won't arrive in Croatia until 17 July.

Since we decided to stay in the Adriatic for a few more months, there is still a chance to have a beer or two.

 

[ScottC]

Since we decided to stay in the Adriatic for a few more months, there is still a chance to have a beer or two.

We are now in Preveza and are still on schedule according to our plan outlined in post 18.

 

[sMartin]

You made the straight of Messina! We are in Venice now. The boat is there, we are at home. We will be back before the 10th of July. Then we will sail back to Pula in Istria, where the boat stays for the rest of the season. Maybe it fits and we will have this glass of wine or two!

 

[Lars A]

Our new little used GL33H/2012 seems already having symptoms of a defective clutch as more owners have written about in here. The dot4 oil reservoir goes from max to lower than min within a day. Bleeding as documented does eventually help one day, but next day it's the same. I'll save you for various symptoms but have two questions:
Is there any drain from the clutch house so the leaked oil can get out? I see no oil under the house so where does it leak to?
After some hours diesel sailing we want to test the clutch. Power down the diesel, switch to electric and the key to 'on'. Giving throttle turns on the diesel :-o, and I immediately switch off the key and switch back to diesel. Then the diesel won't start, it cranks but won't ignite. Wait af minute or two, switch off the 48 hybrid and master switches, turn on again. Doing this two or three times the diesel starts after a little cranking. May be it has absolutely nothing to do with the 48V system... - may be it's a 'normal' diesel behavior (which I don't see in cars) - I don't know. Any with the same experience? It feels somewhat unsafe to me.

 

[sMartin]

Our new little used GL33H/2012 seems already having symptoms of a defective clutch as more owners have written about in here. The dot4 oil reservoir goes from max to lower than min within a day. Bleeding as documented does eventually help one day, but next day it's the same. I'll save you for various symptoms but have two questions:
Is there any drain from the clutch house so the leaked oil can get out? I see no oil under the house so where does it leak to?
After some hours diesel sailing we want to test the clutch. Power down the diesel, switch to electric and the key to 'on'. Giving throttle turns on the diesel :-o, and I immediately switch off the key and switch back to diesel. Then the diesel won't start, it cranks but won't ignite. Wait af minute or two, switch off the 48 hybrid and master switches, turn on again. Doing this two or three times the diesel starts after a little cranking. May be it has absolutely nothing to do with the 48V system... - may be it's a 'normal' diesel behavior (which I don't see in cars) - I don't know. Any with the same experience? It feels somewhat unsafe to me.

I have the same model. The clutch was replaced last year by the previous owner. I take care of it and treat it sensibly.
Where your oil is going to is a question that matters.

 

[ScottC]

Our new little used GL33H/2012 seems already having symptoms of a defective clutch as more owners have written about in here. The dot4 oil reservoir goes from max to lower than min within a day. Bleeding as documented does eventually help one day, but next day it's the same. I'll save you for various symptoms but have two questions:
Is there any drain from the clutch house so the leaked oil can get out? I see no oil under the house so where does it leak to?
After some hours diesel sailing we want to test the clutch. Power down the diesel, switch to electric and the key to 'on'. Giving throttle turns on the diesel :-o, and I immediately switch off the key and switch back to diesel. Then the diesel won't start, it cranks but won't ignite. Wait af minute or two, switch off the 48 hybrid and master switches, turn on again. Doing this two or three times the diesel starts after a little cranking. May be it has absolutely nothing to do with the 48V system... - may be it's a 'normal' diesel behavior (which I don't see in cars) - I don't know. Any with the same experience? It feels somewhat unsafe to me.

Hi Lars.
I am delayed in responding to some of your other questions, but will respond to this one first, as it's most important. We have had time and connectivity challenges the last week or so, while cruising in Albania.

Welcome to this known early-model Greenline headache. I've had to replace my master and slave clutch pistons twice, since 2010. Normally, it should take a long time (2yrs ++) for the DOT fluid to go from Max to Min. You absolutely have a problem here, and the fix is not quick or easy. Your symptom of the electric motor trying to turn over the diesel engine is a classic symptom. Normally the clutch plates between the diesel engine and electric motor are kept separated by the hydraulic pressure -- until you wish to use the diesel engine, then the clutch is engaged and the power from the diesel is transmitted to the shaft/propeller. What you are experiencing now is that there is hydraulic leakage and sufficient hydraulic pressure to separate the clutch plates can no longer be achieved.

The master cylinder (at least in my 2010 GL33) is on the starboard side, just over the engine battery (in an aluminium box). The Slave cylinder (the one that separates the clutch plates) is INSIDE the cast clutch housing that's connected to the engine. In my experience, it's always been the SLAVE cylinder that leaks, not the Master. Of course the Slave cylinder is the one that is most difficult to access and causes the most problems.

Where does the disappearing fluid go? If you have no dripping under the master cylinder box over the battery (which is something I've never seen), then you can be sure that the fluid is dripping out from the Slave cylinder and accumulating in the clutch housing. This is BAD (very poor design on SeaWay/Greeline's part!). The fluid will eventually get on the clutch plates and cause them to slip and the clutch to burn when you are placing heavy demand on the diesel engine (i.e. like may occur in heavy following seas). So be prepared for this if you are still travelling. If you are getting little power for increased RPM's, you will eventually notice an strong acrid smell and that is the clutch burning. This happened to me right when we were going under the Öresund bridge in heavy following seas. Had to shut the diesel down. Fortunately, I still had enough hydraulic pressure in the clutch to allow me to run the last 6 miles to port on electric, so did not need to call for help.

You will need to replace the slave cylinder, which is no longer to be found on the market as a replacement part. It will need to be cobbled together from available parts by a competent mechanical shop. Since this involves separating the engine from the clutch housing and raising the engine at least partially off the motor mounts (e.g. a lot of expensive work), it would probably be wise to replace the clutch plates too. If they have come in contact with the DOT4 fluid, then absolutely replace the clutch plates. If memory serves, these are standard VW automotive clutch plates (Passat??). I would also recommend replacing the Master cylinder (i.e. the one over the engine battery) while you have everything apart. I will respond to your PM about where I had this done later today.

As far as difficulty starting the diesel the event you describe, I do not know. I never experienced this aspect. It could be unrelated. Or, perhaps, if you turned over the diesel for a longer period with the electric motor, the injectors became flooded (??? I am guessing way beyond my diesel knowledge level here...)