Hatteras 48LRC Refit

[BryanF]

Ok I have it backwards. But a piston change then and a different injector system makes a totally different engine. They might share the same basic parts but there is no way to really call them the same engine. The common rail system likely uses the multiple injection events model and I think that uses more fuel. At least they have not forced Dpf into the marine world...yet. Still more fuel used.

 

[Island Cessna]

I have always liked the old 2 stroke Detroits. Their least endearing feature is the noise, but they are smooth, reliable, rugged, and easily field repaired. If your Hatteras has good engine room soundproofing and the noise level is bearable I'd rebuild these fine old engines.

 

[Nomad Willy]

In the OPs position I would opt to rebuild the DD and I usually lean toward re powering. Speaking of that there must be several to many other engines suitable to repower this boat that are not high end engines. Talking about the economy of the 4-53 rebuild and almost in the same sentence talking equally about buying two new engines that are very expensive seems odd to me. I'll bet there are engines out there that cost half as much as the JD and to my knowledge there are very few if any engines to be avoided. I'd go shopping if I didn't rebuild the 4-53s and I think shopping for engines is fun.

 

[FF]

AGREED ,,New JD are nice to contemplate , but really hard to justify cost wise.

The boat is a Yacht , so the hours of fuel burn , even running the loop will not justify the cost. The next owner will be delighted , but wont pay the perhaps $50K the swop will cost.

If the engines have not been gone over before , an >inframe< is the choice.

The heads are removed m new cylinders, pistons and rods are installed.

The crank is checked (sent out if needed) and new bearings installed.

The complete parts kit is about $1200 per enghine , reworking heads and possible crank machining would be extra. $40 each for injectors too. Look in Boats and Harbors for rebuild kit prices.

The hassle is weather there is room to lift the engine and remove the pan to get at the big ends.

The OTHER BIG hassle is the work takes a person skilled in DD.and had the DD tools

NOT some guy at the boat yard that >works on boats<.

I would take the boat over to the Oil Patch in LA and have the work done there , as DD have been working there since the end of WWII.

On one engine it might be a slow ride , but to save $40K , why not?

 

[Otisguy]

Lots of Good Stuff.. Thanks Everyone.. Lots to consider - meeting at the Boat with Dan Nobel with Florida Detroit Allison that Reps John Deer.. We are going to look at all the factors and possible extra expense of re powering...I understand the extra cost but I firmly believe it will be a more coveted trawler for an already coveted Classic Trawler due to having John Deers in her (I could be wrong)..I don't really believe I will ever recover the cost in my life time but I like the new technology and I like the idea of Brand new Motors and Brand New Generators.... (GOING with Phasor 17.5 & 8.5 if anyone wants to chime in on that)...Phasor uses the Kabota motor and from I understand have great service when needed but rarely needed...
We are certainly going to clean and paint the entire engine room and move some components around while the motors are out...
I would like to find out more info about how to "Reprogram the computer" to bring the JD 4045 teir 3 motor back to a tier 1 rating but from what I am reading here it really won't matter much seeing how I probably woudln't run the boat more than 30%-50% of the power available.. we run now most of the times around 1600-1650 rpms at 7.2 knots which seems to sip fuel.. we get 8.2 knots from 1850 rpms and I know for a fact we average 6.5 gal per hour on a 1000 mile trip from Panama to Guatmeala trip over 10 days in 3-5 meter seas ....that was a 133 hour run with 78 hours I believe on a westerbeke 8kw....I filled up before we left and filled up when we returned and burned 869 gallons I believe....both motors running 1850 for 7 true days of running & 3 days stop on the Island of San Andreas..

 

[Otisguy]

I just received an email and re powering with John Deer may not be an option...
see below and let me know your thoughts...
"I have contacted our warehouse and Deere to inquire about Tier two left overs. There are none. The current tier 3 engine is now 160 HP. Same envelope etc…. This may have an affect on shaft sizing and of course of the props. How do you wish me to proceed? The only other alternative is either a 110 HP or 150 HP Volvo unit."
I am not interested in Volvo - I know they are very reliable but I thought I had read the tier 3 JD were 135 HP...but he is saying 160 hp...

 

[Marlinmike]

Nice pair of Cummins 6B 210's reman's with warranty and better resale in the end.

 

[Diesel Duck]

I just received an email and re powering with John Deer may not be an option...
see below and let me know your thoughts...
"I have contacted our warehouse and Deere to inquire about Tier two left overs. There are none. The current tier 3 engine is now 160 HP. Same envelope etc…. This may have an affect on shaft sizing and of course of the props. How do you wish me to proceed? The only other alternative is either a 110 HP or 150 HP Volvo unit."
I am not interested in Volvo - I know they are very reliable but I thought I had read the tier 3 JD were 135 HP...but he is saying 160 hp...

Hmmmm.... That's interesting. According to Greg Light at Cascade Engine Center in Washington there is a "new" JD Tier lll marine propulsion engine, it's the 4045TFM85. I'm told this engine was specifically developed after many inquiries for a lower horsepower Tier lll engine. I even have the brochure from JD that gives all the numbers and the M1 rated engine produces 101 hp, the M2 version produces 125hp. I've paid a deposit to Cascade Engine Center for this engine and I assume if they, JD, decided not to move forward with this engine I would have been notified by now. Or maybe it's simply a case that it's not available at this moment but will be in the very near future.

If you would like a copy of the JD brochure on the above mentioned 4045TFM85 Tier lll engine I'd be more than happy to email it to you.

All that said, I suggest you check with Greg Light at Cascade to verify the information I have provided here.

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

How about a pair of Beta (Kubota) engines?

90 hp continuous rating,much lower cost and lower parts cost.

Engines - Beta Marine diesel engines using the high performance Kubota diesel


Just a thought and another option

 

[ksanders]

To the OP...

I am seeing your repeated posts that say on the one hand that you realize this repower is not cost justified and on the other hand your boat will be worth more.

You need to take the resale out of your thinking. Then if you still want to repower, for your enjoyment only then it's a great thing to do.

Yes, the 48 LRC is a great cruiser. I am a huge fan myself.

If you undertake this job we both know by the time it's done you are going to be well north of a hundred thousand with new generators. Knowing how refits turn into even bigger jobs I'm guessing close to 150 by the time you leave the shipyard.

You have to go back to what makes the 48LRC such a popular boat. Thats simple, it offers the dream of passagemaking at a lower price point than the competition. Now that the Nordhavn 46 fleet is starting to age, and prices of those are starting to drop dramatically the 48LRC has more competition, and in a boat half the age.

If that is money you want to spend because you love the boat, fantastic. If you are thinking a large portion of it is recoverable, vs a well maintained model with original equipment, well... I'd think again.

 

[Scary]

Interesting comments from all

There is a 48 lrc in Alameda Ca that has just been nearly completely refit with new fiberglass windows, LP paint, a completely replaced interior, galley, heads, head liner, lighting, bulkhead paneling and furnishings. Without building the hull this is a new boat. The owner had the DD's rebuilt inframe at J&H Marine in Stockton including repainting for around $6,000 each. As you have shown Fuel consumption really is really a mute point as there will never be a improvement enough to effect your cruising costs. Range with 1450 gallons of fuel is not a problem as there are very few places in the world you can't go with your existing range. For another 6k you can carry a replacement for every accessory on your DD's. The only reason I would repower would be to reduce engine noise. If this were my choice, and it will be soon enough, I would inframe both engines, replace all hoses, fuel lines, and if needed rebuild those bullet proof velvet drives. That's probably 2k each. I would boil out the heat exchangers if needed, and maybe replace the oil coolers for the velvet drives. The generators if original would be replaced with new Northern Lights in sound shields. In a good yard that could be done in a month or so. There are very few boats that match these old LRC's for build quality, designed to be repaired and run forever.

 

[ksanders]

There is a 48 lrc in Alameda Ca that has just been nearly completely refit with new fiberglass windows, LP paint, a completely replaced interior, galley, heads, head liner, lighting, bulkhead paneling and furnishings. Without building the hull this is a new boat.
/QUOTE]

Steve, NICE boat!

What I see are hundreds or thousands of billable hours in the refit.

It will be interesting to see just how quickly that boat sells st that price point, but whomever gets it will be getting quite the value.

 

[sunchaser]

Otisguy

JD has been going through a bit of a hiccup on the 4045s as they move into the Tier III designations/ mandates. Brochures, prop curves, and new product availability have been moving around for them and other builders. I went through this "confusion" when considering a new build with 4045s two years ago.

Sit down with your local guy and get all the latest M1, 2 ,3 and 4 data. Current publicized 4045TFM85 ratings are 101 HP for M1 and 125 HP for M2. As the factory does their dyno testing and emission certification on new builds the numbers are changing from calculated to measured. A call to the factory tech team is in order it would seem.

Hang in there, the 4045 is the right way to go if you have the money and especially with the chance to pimp up the ER innards. Better you spend it than leaving it to the kids to buy a sports car or sailboat .

 

[Scary]

The owner did a lot of the work himself

There is a 48 lrc in Alameda Ca that has just been nearly completely refit with new fiberglass windows, LP paint, a completely replaced interior, galley, heads, head liner, lighting, bulkhead paneling and furnishings. Without building the hull this is a new boat.
/QUOTE]

Steve, NICE boat!

What I see are hundreds or thousands of billable hours in the refit.

It will be interesting to see just how quickly that boat sells st that price point, but whomever gets it will be getting quite the value.

The owner did much of the work himself, Mechanical work was done by the yard. He did the interior and paint. Still a lot of money thrown into an old boat. I'd be interested to see why it's for sale. He had plans to cruise South America.

 

[Donsan]

The owner did much of the work himself, Mechanical work was done by the yard. He did the interior and paint. Still a lot of money thrown into an old boat. I'd be interested to see why it's for sale. He had plans to cruise South America.

YW has it list at $369K. That is a lot of bucks for a 40 year old boat even if it has been brought up to like new condition.

 

[Otisguy]

"Hmmmm.... That's interesting. According to Greg Light at Cascade Engine Center in Washington there is a "new" JD Tier lll marine propulsion engine, it's the 4045TFM85. I'm told this engine was specifically developed after many inquiries for a lower horsepower Tier lll engine. I even have the brochure from JD that gives all the numbers and the M1 rated engine produces 101 hp, the M2 version produces 125hp. I've paid a deposit to Cascade Engine Center for this engine and I assume if they, JD, decided not to move forward with this engine I would have been notified by now. Or maybe it's simply a case that it's not available at this moment but will be in the very near future.
If you would like a copy of the JD brochure on the above mentioned 4045TFM85 Tier lll engine I'd be more than happy to email it to you.
"
All that said, I suggest you check with Greg Light at Cascade to verify the information I have provided here."

Diesel Duck - I noticed your from Colombia (my wife is from Colombia, Bogota).. so I also assume your vessel is flagged Colombian? My rep did mention that if I was a Non US Flagged Vessel it would be a different ball game and tier 2 would be available but legally I understand they can't sell to me... Last year this time when I inquired tier 2 was available and I had a proposal and price and did not pull the trigger (snooze you lose) so I am regretting not doing this last year but I am sure if their is a will their is a way... It's looking like it would be much easier and as everyone says much cheaper to just rebuild which is still an option but I am not giving up yet...I am checking to see if registering her with a Colombian flag is an option to get the motors of choice...That is a legal question and I will inquire with a Marine attorney friend... once again probably to much trouble & cost but probably worth an email to find out...
Diesel Duck please email me that brochure
Perryotisspunkmeyer@gmail.com

 

[FF]

The current trend in commercial engines , sadly a bit bigger than 100hp is to engineer a mechanical version that meets the air police requirements.

Commercials are likely to be single engine and the ability for the crew to repair the engine is of great value.

The demand is there , perhaps JD is working on a conversion of its current line?

 

[ksanders]

He had plans to cruise South America.

I have found that often wives have different plans.

 

[ksanders]

YW has it list at $369K. That is a lot of bucks for a 40 year old boat even if it has been brought up to like new condition.

Yes it is. I remember recently seeing a 48LRC that had extensive work done, and a pedigree of extensive cruising history for sale in the $300K+ price range.

That looked like a VERY nice example as well, and it sat for sale for several years.

The problem is that people that want passagemakers and are seriously considering an older boat like a 48LRC or even a KK42 are budget orientated. That makes great examples of these boats, at great example prices sit on the market. They are just beyond the budget of the folks that generally buy them.

Other more expensive models say in the >500K range are bought by a different demographic that has a larger budget, and I've seen these boats appear to me to sell faster.

Couple that with the drop in price of N46's over the last few years as the fleet ages and you have more competition in the $300-$400K passagemaker price range.

Personally I think that a boat like the one Steve mentioned is a great value, but then again I am budget orientated myself.

 

[Diesel Duck]

I have found that often wives have different plans.

Maybe that's why he had planned to cruise South America... To find a new wife?

 

[Diesel Duck]

"Hmmmm.... That's interesting. According to Greg Light at Cascade Engine Center in Washington there is a "new" JD Tier lll marine propulsion engine, it's the 4045TFM85. I'm told this engine was specifically developed after many inquiries for a lower horsepower Tier lll engine. I even have the brochure from JD that gives all the numbers and the M1 rated engine produces 101 hp, the M2 version produces 125hp. I've paid a deposit to Cascade Engine Center for this engine and I assume if they, JD, decided not to move forward with this engine I would have been notified by now. Or maybe it's simply a case that it's not available at this moment but will be in the very near future.
If you would like a copy of the JD brochure on the above mentioned 4045TFM85 Tier lll engine I'd be more than happy to email it to you.
"
All that said, I suggest you check with Greg Light at Cascade to verify the information I have provided here."

Diesel Duck - I noticed your from Colombia (my wife is from Colombia, Bogota).. so I also assume your vessel is flagged Colombian? My rep did mention that if I was a Non US Flagged Vessel it would be a different ball game and tier 2 would be available but legally I understand they can't sell to me... Last year this time when I inquired tier 2 was available and I had a proposal and price and did not pull the trigger (snooze you lose) so I am regretting not doing this last year but I am sure if their is a will their is a way... It's looking like it would be much easier and as everyone says much cheaper to just rebuild which is still an option but I am not giving up yet...I am checking to see if registering her with a Colombian flag is an option to get the motors of choice...That is a legal question and I will inquire with a Marine attorney friend... once again probably to much trouble & cost but probably worth an email to find out...
Diesel Duck please email me that brochure
Perryotisspunkmeyer@gmail.com

Responded in PM and PDF file was sent via email.

 

[jungpeter]

Hi OtisGuy,

i feel your pain. I doubt I can offer anything other than a long and well-thought out opinion on the matter. But perhaps that's of value. I hope so.

Having confronted the same conundrum for years on my 30-year old boat with twin DD 671 TIs, I am unable to solve it within my budget. I simply cannot muster the $$ necessary to repower, no matter how many "plusses" show up in the "new engine" column of my decision tree.

As you undoubtedly understand, cost of ownership of a vessel of our size and complexity is little influenced by fuel consumption. That leaves the intangibles like value of reduced noise (how to quantify?), perceived recovery of repower cost at sale (probably slim, if any), lower emissions (an intensely personal issue for many), repower options (there are many, Lugger, JD, Cummins, etc.), perceived reliability (again VERY difficult to quantify in recreational boats), yada yada yada.

As the "cost" of these intangibles is simply not quantifiable to me, I fall back on the bottom line-how much would a repower cost? Answer for me? More than I have. End of that story. Your mileage will obviously vary here! Once my answer became clear to me, I must simply make do with what I have, and perform diligent maintenance and service to ensure that a major engine failure does not occur on my watch. From your post, you might have reached the end of that particular road; hence your query to this forum.

Had I reached the end of that same road, I believe my budget would have left me little option besides a rebuild of my DDs. Given the sterling performance of the original engines, the ease of obtaining needed parts and the availability of experienced engine technicians to do the rebuilds, this would be my choice in similar circumstances.

As you might surmise, I'm a fan of DDs, and believe they would still be in production absent the evolution of probably-prudent emissions standards. In design, I believe the 2-cycle DDs are absolutely brilliant, which led to the well-known and well-deserved worldwide reputation for durability and popularity. Would I buy another previously-owned boat with 2-cycle DDs? In a heartbeat. Would I build a new boat with vintage (albeit newly rebuilt) 2-cycle DDs? No, there are better choices for new construction.

I believe one of the previous posters did a great job describing some of the pitfalls with a repower. Right on-the list is long. Is this insurmountable? Obviously not, as there are lots of repowered boats out there. But bring money. Lots and lots of money. Cures all ills when it comes to these holes in the water. And don't look for money to flow back into your coffers upon resale. Boats seem like they come with financial check valves; boat money only flows one way for me.

Regards,

Pete

 

[Insequent]

Hi OtisGuy,

(snip)

And don't look for money to flow back into your coffers upon resale. Boats seem like they come with financial check valves; boat money only flows one way for me.

Regards,

Pete

Another way to look at it. Yes, the repower might only add a a few dollars compared to the outlay. But when, or if, you are selling the boat the discount you will have to make to sell, and the time it takes to sell, will be a lot less. Those factors will in effect claw back quite a bit of the repower costs. But I agree, repower is expensive. In part because of the 'while we have good access lets replace the hydronic heater hoses' etc.

 

[Scary]

Finding someone to pay near 400k not likely

I agree it will be hard to find someone willing to pay 400k for 40 year old boat. These LRC Hatteras boat are really unique. They are old that's a given, but they unbelievable in the open ocean. They combine a sea kindly ride with out the roll of a kk or Nordhaven, huge fuel capacity in fiberglass tanks, huge water capacity in again fiberglass tanks. With near 18' of beam they are large boats for their length. They have redundant systems, four fuel tanks three water tanks, two generators, and two engines,electrical systems are unbelievably robust( even for a Hatteras). The living space is unparalleled, large heads and showers, real house hold appliances, stacked washer and drier, large staterooms, real safety glass tinted laminated windows, plenty of outlets including in closets, storage and more storage, These boats are not RV quality, they are the real deal. Rigged like a commercial vessel with yacht amenities they rugged and plush at the same time. If you can deal with the complexity of a 40 year old luxury yacht that has 4 air conditioners, 9.5 feet of free board at the bow weighs close 66,000lb, tracks like it was on rails in 12 foot following seas, maybe 400k isn't too much for a restored legend. A new one would cost over 1.6 m.

 

[IntervaleII]

Nicely said. Couldn't have said it better from another 48LRC owner.
The 453,s are one of the best and easiest engines to work on. Why change a very proven equipment package. It all works together perfectly. When you change one part of the equation it has a chain reaction to all the other parts!
Good luck.

 

[sunchaser]

This thread is in two parts, one the obvious appreciating of a well made albeit older vessel and two, the desire to seriously upgrade the same vessel with money not necessarily the driving force. Let's be honest, if money were the holy grail none of us would have the vessels we do.

As retirement approached we set aside "play boat" money to do on the water what we are doing. We assumed we would get little of it back and moved on. The money we are pi$$ing away on the boat and journeys is buying lots of pleasure and emotional reward. Our financial threshold for this endeavor is less than some and more than others can and do choose to spend.

To some, money is to be carefully husbanded and to be spent only on OUR relevant things so it can be left to family, charities and the tax collectors. But what is relevant to one may not be to another. If one has the free capital to sink into a boat and the opportunity to take what is to many a very iconic vessel and bring it to the next level, why not do it? The JD 4045 or fully warrantied Cummins reman mechanical will be a marvelous addition. Don't forget to ballast for the weight loss.

There are many boat shoppers, me for one, that would relish the chance to purchase a good solid sea boat that has been seriously updated and not cored, not steel, not wood, solid bones, the ability to get me safely back to port and emotional joy.

For some, the love affair with a 2 stroke DD is never ending. Having been in the middle the commercial diesel world for almost half a century and watched non DDs perform on a tightly watched opex and reliability basis I am thrilled they are gone and have been for many decades to be quite honest.

So to the OP, bringing this great vessel up to the 21st century is a unique chance and opportunity. If you have the throw away money enjoy the journey the same as art lovers, rare book collectors, equestrians and house remodelers do. It will be every bit as good as a similar sized newer Selene, KK or Binatow. Don't get caught up on resale, enjoy the redo and let the future pleasure you will gain be yours to savor.

Last but not least, pick a refit yard wisely.

 

[Mako]

Would I build a new boat with vintage (albeit newly rebuilt) 2-cycle DDs? No, there are better choices for new construction.

Having been in the middle the commercial diesel world for almost half a century and watched non DDs perform on a tightly watched opex and reliability basis I am thrilled they are gone and have been for many decades to be quite honest.

Gents, what are your reasons for these very strong statements? Those who are familiar with Grays and have used them for years and can live with the noise might wish to install in a new build (let's say a home build). What do you feel are the reasons why this wouldn't be prudent?

 

[sunchaser]

Good question Mako. But not one I care to debate on an open forum where the love for the old 2 strokers runs deep. I can tell you that on several continuos duty pumps, gensets and high hour engines I managed, once diesel broke $1 dollar per gallon the cost to operate them was prohibitive due to excessive fuel consumption. This is obviously not much of a factor for a low hour vessel.

In a similar vein just as people take out gas and put in diesels to extend the vessels range with given tank volume, the same holds true for swapping out 2 strokes and putting in four. Lest this turn into a single vs twin, anchor debate, why worry about clean air or over propping, my thoughts on 2 strokers will best go quiet.

 

[PopArcher]

I hate to throw a curve into this interesting conversation. But I have to ask, does anyone have experience with the Duetz diesel air cooled engines. They have become very popular in the industrial power equipment rental and stationary engine arena. I have run them many years on the farm, tractor applications and can say that they are fuel efficient and reliable. But have only occasionally heard of them being installed in boats. Seems a good choice to me, less complications only requiring a wet exhaust if you do not want a dry exhaust. Thanks for your time in reply.

 

[sunchaser]

But I have to ask, does anyone have experience with the Duetz diesel air cooled engines. .

Used them extensively in UG mining. They were solid engines and went longer between rebuilds than the DDs. Parts from Germany were expensive. Emissions and open stope heating were acceptable.

In a boat they'd likely heat up the ER much too quickly. In open air not an issue.

How have you found the costs for repair parts?