Hello....my BIG assumption...

[Hippocampus]

BTW think I know your sailing guy. He’s on a Hunter believe it’s a 40. A liveaboard with his wife and kids. We shared time together in Barrington, Hampton and Norfolk at different times. He’s exclusively coastal and a conservative thoughtful sailor who doesn’t drive his boat hard from what I understand. His numbers maybe be low for other use patterns.

SR get a moth and go foiling. Go faster than your trawler or dinghy.

 

[slowgoesit]

Regarding the oft repeated tale that "fuel is the least of your expenses in boating", for us, it is the SINGLE GREATEST COST!
Our 87,000 boat burns right on 3.0 gallons/hour while cruising at 7 - 8 kts. Our generator is run off of the main engine while cruising, so the 3.0 gph includes all the 120v power we want. Sooooo, we cruised well over 4,500 miles so far this year, Alaska and back, and a lot of cruising here in the PNW. Cost of fuel consumed this year is about $9,500.00.

Second was moorage.
Dockside here in PNW for our 57' overall boat, and including electricity and $200/mo liveaboard fee (for two people), we pay roughly $725/month, and 4 months this calendar year we sublet out our slip as we were away.

Now, having said the above, our boat cruises very comfortably at 7-8 kts, We don't have to raise our voices at all to converse, and it's very comfortable. Although we have cruised as much as 110nm (15 hours) in a day, we much prefer to cruise 4 - 6 hours, roughly 35-40 nm tops. Some days we only go 5 miles and we're in a totally different place!

So, down to cost/day for fuel. If we cruise a comfortable 5 hours, at 7.5kts SOG, we travel 37.5 miles, and burn 15 gallons of diesel. At $5.60/gallon, that is $84.00 for the day, WAY short of your "hundreds of dollars per day" the OP quoted in his first post.

Moving right along, cost of fuel/day of travel doesn't tell an accurate story . . . . Many's the time we stayed 2, 3 days, or even a week in the same spot. Cost of fuel/day is exactly ZERO! (that's unless we run the hydronic diesel heat).

We installed 2,180 watts of solar cells and LiFePO4 batteries too, so unless it's really cloudy, or raining, we have no need whatsoever to run the generator. Solar even runs the two water heaters, fridge, freezer, and chest freezer just fine. We generally run the washer/dryer and the water maker when we're underway.

The biggest single cruising savings for us/our boat is that we have very little need or desire to tie up in marinas while we are cruising. Our longest trip this year away from our "home dock" was to Glacier Bay and back. 87 days, just under 3000nm, and 420 engine hours. Of that 87 days, we spent 11 days at marinas. 6 of those 11 days were when picking up/dropping off people at various airports. The rest of the time we anchored out.

Oh, and just for fun, check out the following boat, offered in the For Sale section here on TF. Perfect size for a starter boat, and plenty of room for a couple, or even two couples for short trips. Great for the Bahamas, shallow draft, good engine, and a STELLAR price! (subject to survey, of course). No affiliation, just saw it on the classifieds this morning.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s9/1990-marine-trader-36-sd-65807.html

Hope this helps

 

[SoWhat]

Sail v. power is not an economic decision. It's a lifestyle choice and money is only an issue at initial purchase. Many of us on TF are former sailors. As others have mentioned, long term living in a sailboat is like living in a submarine. the view out the portholes is usually the sky. Interior becomes very tiny when trapped in a harbor for a week due to weather. Sitting in the trawler with 360 view is a pleasure.

You may have the greatest dodger but you are sitting outside in the elements meaning you are being baked on sunny days or freezing on wet windy days. My wife and I have both had skin cancer so cockpit days are over. Total pleasure to be inside during bad weather.

My wife was not a sailor so I was the one up at the mast or hanging on for life freeing up a jammed furler. On those rare days when you have a 20kt wind all day and it's not on the nose you discover being heeled all day is not very comfortable. My wife decided she doesn't like heeling.

I don't really like the noise of twin diesels running all day but in reality I was under power much of the time on my various sailboats due to no wind, not enough wind, wind from the wrong direction and I needed to reach a harbor by sunset, etc.

All in all I think the trawler is far more spacious and comfortable for long trips or long stays in a harbor not to mention safer because you don't have to go scrambling around a foredeck in bad weather.

But again, it is a lifestyle choice and there is a certain cache associated with sailing.

(the Marine Trader link mentioned by slowgoesit appears to be an extremely good deal.)

 

[Simi 60]

Good points and its not an straightforward answer.

I love sailing, but I don't have big water experience. As you mention I love the sensory experience.

I love sailing as well and have crossed small oceans under sail, with my wife on a catamaran we built together

But I can guarantee you we wouldn't be out here now if we had a sail boat
They simply do not offer the same level of comfort, space or load carrying ability.
Not unless spending millions of dollars and then we could never handle the sail loads so would be mostly motoring anyway.

My concern is does looking out on the sunset get spoiled with constant generator sounds? Do we have to raise our voices to talk when cruising?

Constant generator noise?

We run multiple 240v fridge freezers, a 240v hot water system, 240v watermaker and multiple 240v appliances.
We actually run more out here than we did on land

The only time our Genset runs is on a rainy day and even then, two hours at most covers our power usage.

Solar and plenty of it.

Add: a lot of what slowgoesit said above applies to us as well.
We use slightly more fuel , about 3.5 gallons for 7.5 knots but we are a bigger boat.
We pay nothing in mooring fees, her size and ability to carry a large, dry tender allows us to stay out indefinitely.

 

[Hippocampus]

Just took on 344.51g to go from Melville RI to Deltaville VA at $6.10/g today in Deltaville. Went half against half with tides. Flat water so no genset nor SeaKeeper except for the run down Jersey coast. $2103.23 for the trip. Did run heat some nights. Diesel (Valvtect). Wasn’t careful about efficiency. Neither speed nor timing tides. Did time NYC and C&D but that’s it. Price here going to $6.71 starting tomorrow. Last fill in RI was $5.25 (non Valvtect). Occasionally can split a truck with a commercial boat and get a break.
Expect diesel to continue to be progressively more expensive due to Putins war, Saudi greed and European winter. Expect maybe return to prior costs or close next summer and gasoline to rise then .

Would note no longer matters as regards running a sailboat what the size is. Even our 46 had powered winches and was set up for single handed watches. I didn’t spec in mast or in boom because I like redundancy and being able to control sail shape but many do. I or crew could do any evolution alone. Between two or three speed powered winches, in mast or in boom mainsails, hydraulics for furlers and the rest of mechanical aids 80 y.o.s can and do cruise and cross oceans on sail. Master and mate move 80’+ cross oceans as well. Limitation is insurance now wants X number of crew on the boat for passage. Have crewed for a friend who was the full time captain of mega yachts. From that experience found the large sailboats are commonly easier to sail than the small. All it takes is boat bucks (wish I had more. Oh well….)

 

[mvweebles]

First and foremost, I am jealous as heck that you're on your way Hippocampus. You've shared your story for a while and I am so happy that the plan is coming together for you and your wife. Hats off!!! I wish I was closer to following in your virtual wake even though a different ocean

For the OP, don't be scared by the number$.
It is a choice to run a larger boat, and run it faster. This Nordic Tug 42 averaged a bit under 1 gallon per mile I'd reckon, and spent some time at speed. Another TF member (OC Diver) recently said he does around 4000 nms and 1500 gallons, or around 2.25 nm/gal on a 45 foot trawler, likely running around 7-1/2 kts. A sistership to my Willard 36 went from California to Hawaii, a distance of around 2300 nms, and burned roughly what Hippocampus did, 335 gallons at 6-kts, or around 7-8 nm/gal.

It's a choice. Just like a sailboat, you can pay more and get a faster sailboat. With power, you can pay more and go faster too.

Peter

 

[PierreR]

Sail is not cheaper than a trawler if you care about dispatch. Dispatch meaning honoring any kind of time schedule such as meeting people or spending the night at sea. If you want dispatch, you will be motoring a lot and maintaining a power system that is capable of motoring long distances. I sailed for many years and then discovered that a trawler was significantly easier and cheaper all around.
Many people get hung up on the miles per gallon on a trawler and forget that miles per gallon is not the correct way to look at it. The correct way to look at it is how much is fuel on an annualized basis and how much is spent overall. How does it compare to utilities at home? How does dockage compare to property taxes for ocean front propery? You get the idea.

 

[garbler]

The one thing that is hidden or overlooked in the trawler vs sailboat cost equation is very obvious to me but omitted by some. If you want to bump down the coast fuel stop to fuel stop at a moderate speed then I’m sure the graphs will support that sail is a bit more costly. But not always since a sailing hull is a lot easier driven per gallon of fuel at hull speed and if you have the right propulsion package and decent fuel capacity you can combine sailing when wind is right with motoring. The combination is hard to beat. If you have a true motorsailer it can even be better but most of today’s motorsailers suffer at both ends.

Today’s sails last much longer due to UV resistance and standing rigging is more durable also. Much like yesterdays auto tires vs todays. Running rigging is basically a consumable but with today’s new fibers they are stronger and tougher so unless you race expect many years of service. So blue water sailers still offer more miles per dollar and since most who cruise offshore with sail are generally more self-sufficient and undertake repairs on their own the running costs are even lower.

But ! If you want range and are interested in crossing wide water to see the So Pacific, Europe or how about Labrador - really. Then unless you have enough pesos for a real long range cruiser the sail or motorsailer is your only option at more affordable prices.

Okay no argument on interior space and house-like layout but you have to remember the well proven axiom that most all boats are a compromise so it’s a matter of trade offs. There are always exceptions to the rule as some trawler designs are slippery and can be run quite efficiently with good seakeeping qualities but most of the recent builds from offshore fall short. Weebles’ Willard is one of those exceptions and there are others but they are harder to find

Rick

 

[Prairie Salt]

Wow, great thread with lots of info. Thank you!

My first time trying to upload a pic, hope it works.

I 'get' fuel. This is how we camp. 74' in total length. My Ford F250 PowerStroke does 12 mpg pulling this at 60mph...7 mpg at 65. I don't mind having everyone pass me, but sometimes I like to get put my foot to it and forget about the fuel. Like cruising (as I imagine from armchair) we run 4-10 hours from our home to a destination, hang out for a week and run back home. Funny, how we obsess about that one day of running?

Sure, the bank is happy to give us enough money to hang ourselves, but that's no fun.

It pretty clear at this point a trawler is a great fit for us.

We've started the wish list....

 

[SoWhat]

a sailing hull is a lot easier driven per gallon of fuel at hull speed and if you have the right propulsion package and decent fuel capacity you can combine sailing when wind is right with motoring. The combination is hard to beat.

My last sailboat had a 3 cyl Yanmar with a 25 gallon tank.
My current trawler has 2 4 cyl Lehmans with 2 125 gallon tanks.
If I ran the sailboat at hull speed range was very limited.
Trawler range is limited by the hours I want to spend at the helm.
Sun exposure precipitated the switch but I was using the sailboat as a power boat much of the time.

 

[Simi 60]

The one thing that is hidden or overlooked in the trawler vs sailboat cost equation is very obvious to me but omitted by some. If you want to bump down the coast fuel stop to fuel stop at a moderate speed then I’m sure the graphs will support that sail is a bit more costly. But not always since a sailing hull is a lot easier driven per gallon of fuel at hull speed and if you have the right propulsion package and decent fuel capacity you can combine sailing when wind is right with motoring.

Need to compare like with like
No way in hell will a 40 ft sailboat or any comparable size offer the same space, comfort or load carrying capacity of a true displacement trawler

The combination is hard to beat. If you have a true motorsailer it can even be better but most of today’s motorsailers suffer at both ends.

If buying second hand and ready to go you "may" have a win.
But still the space/comfort/load issues.

I did the numbers several times on a decent second hand sailing rig for a 55ft powered cat I have built to lockup stage back at my dirt house.
Even then I would never get a return on the spend vs simply buying fuel.
Not if taking in initial outlay, plus later sail upgrades and 5 to 10 year mandatory re rigging for insurance.

 

[catalinajack]

Welcome aboard. If your assumption is powerboats are much more expensive to run compared to sail, your assumption is WRONG, at least at displacement speeds comparable to sailboats. See attached chart- total cost is around 4%-5% more (at most).

You may want to check out CruisersForum- a sail oriented sister site to TrawlerForum.

Recent thread on Efficient Bluewater Trawler in TF might be interesting, though please ignore the noise about what exactly does "efficent" mean.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65701

On CruisersForum, there's a guy who is a fulltime cruiser in Florida/Bahamas and has compiled 6-years of detailed costs on his sailboat - all-in including insurance, transient dock fees, trips home, dental insurance, repairs, etc. Does not include initial purchase of boat. Works out to around $53k/yr.

I worked out the attached chart showing that if you run at modest speeds and 2000 nms per year, full time cruising would be around $2500 additional per year. Around 4%-5% uplift for power. A rounding error.

Hope this helps. Definitely helped me plan costs for retirement.

PeterView attachment 133110

Peter, interesting numbers but I would not include living expenses such as groceries, medical expenses, and any other expense one would ordinarily incur if living on land. The real cost is the incremental cost in excess of living on land. Eating out expense should be reduced by an estimated amount ordinarily incurred on land. Keep in mind also the same for fuel. When on the water one is not driving a vehicle. No, or very much reduced utilities at the dirt house. There is even an opportunity to reduce the cost of vehicle insurance, another savings that should be factored in. There will be others particular to each person. When we did the Loop (367 days), we spent about $20,000 over and above that which we would have spent had we stayed home.

 

[PM]

I'm sure I will miss some expenses and the order I place them will be different for some boaters but I think I am pretty accurate.

BOATING EXPENSES IN DECREASING ORDER:

#1 Dockage and transient marina fees
#2 Maintenance and upkeep (paint, repairs, etc.)
#3 Insurance
#4 Groceries, we eat simply but well, no alcohol, rarely eat at restaurants
#5 Diesel Fuel
#6 Incidental monthly fees (registration, Sirius radio, dinghy registration, etc)

Some years diesel fuel accounts for a couple hundred dollars, some years a couple thousand.

pete

 

[garbler]

Need to compare like with like
No way in hell will a 40 ft sailboat or any comparable size offer the same space, comfort or load carrying capacity of a true displacement trawler



If buying second hand and ready to go you "may" have a win.
But still the space/comfort/load issues.

I did the numbers several times on a decent second hand sailing rig for a 55ft powered cat I have built to lockup stage back at my dirt house.
Even then I would never get a return on the spend vs simply buying fuel.
Not if taking in initial outlay, plus later sail upgrades and 5 to 10 year mandatory re rigging for insurance.

With all due respect your refutation is all over the map and I don’t think it’s easily nailed down. I addressed interior layout comparison and thought most people understand the hull design differences sail vs trawler. As far as displacement differences well first off most trawlers up here are hardly true displacement. I looked at your boat so you’re an exception as a converted com fish. And comparing multi-hulls to mono hulls is off the rails. Are there any multi-hull trawlers ? Finally before I sign off who is telling you that you need to replace rigging and sails in 5-10 years ? Sorry but we live in different worlds. Our water drains clockwise.

Rick

 

[BruceK]

Be it a sailboat or trawler, a lot of genset noise comes from exhaust discharge. You can get a separator to split the exhaust gas and water components, helps a lot.
Many cruising sailboats build a frame over the aft end of the cockpit to carry solar panels. Unobtrusive, looks ok, functional.
You can also fit a wind generator, newer ones are less noisy, for when there is no sun but still windy.(PS. I may have just prodded a hornets nest).

When I came back to boating post retirement I figured it was easier my partner learned boating without adding the sailing skills component.

I`m sure you`ll make the choice that suits you. Ignore the one sided dogma. I like my trawler but loved the silence of my sailboat once we turned off the "iron topsail" and relied on the breeze. Magic!

 

[Simi 60]

With all due respect your refutation is all over the map and I don’t think it’s easily nailed down. I addressed interior layout comparison and thought most people understand the hull design differences sail vs trawler.

So to compare like for like you probably need a 50ft yacht to get close to 40ft trawler
For us even an 80 ft monohulled yacht doesn't get close to amenities and space we take for granted now.

But a 65 ft cat does, or at least gets close enough.

As far as displacement differences well first off most trawlers up here are hardly true displacement

.
Well then technically, they are not true trawlers
But they can still carry a reasobable load, have the amenities and the space

. And comparing multi-hulls to mono hulls is off the rails

Not really
Not if you are after space and amenities

. Are there any multi-hull trawlers ?

Yes, they do make catamaran trawlers,
Straight shooter is one example

Here is another

Even a big steel hulled variant

There are many similar vessels in these parts

Finally before I sign off who is telling you that you need to replace rigging and sails in 5-10 years ?

I know many still sailing over here, rig surveys and replacement rigging is becoming quite commonplace if you want insurance.

Rigging is not sails but when I was sailing big miles I was going through them in about 7 years and that's not just losing shape, that was blowing them out.

Sorry but we live in different worlds. Our water drains clockwise.

Rick

Same world different country but hardly relevant to the discussion.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, interesting numbers but I would not include living expenses such as groceries, medical expenses, and any other expense one would ordinarily incur if living on land. The real cost is the incremental cost in excess of living on land. Eating out expense should be reduced by an estimated amount ordinarily incurred on land. Keep in mind also the same for fuel. When on the water one is not driving a vehicle. No, or very much reduced utilities at the dirt house. There is even an opportunity to reduce the cost of vehicle insurance, another savings that should be factored in. There will be others particular to each person. When we did the Loop (367 days), we spent about $20,000 over and above that which we would have spent had we stayed home.

All good points - incremental costs versus total costs. I found the $50k-$60k total-cost number from the CruisersForum contributor useful as it provides a good budgetary view of the annual costs to cruise a boat full-time. The spreadsheet he provides has line-item detail allows easy tweaking to suit personal expense assumptions, including comparison to land-based expenses that many people have lengthy data. In short, detailed longterm cruising expense data is really elusive - many people provide general numbers or engage in the minimalist chest-thumping about how cheap their expenses are. But true details on longterm expenses where you can adjust based on a personal lifestyle habit is difficult to find.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

G makes several important points but I don’t think they include some trends in power and sail.

Over the last few years there’s been a dynamic between the “balanced hull” and the slice of pizza hull in sail. The slice of pizza hull is noticeable faster at the same LWL or LOA. Many believe the balanced hull with more rocker, narrower stern, and better tracking is more suitable for cruising. They think the balanced hull is easier to steer in a seaway, less prone to broaching and safer in following seas. Also much less effected by additional payload weight. . Still in recent years all the RTW racers who do the Southern Ocean have been in slice of pizza hulls.
In non ship size recreational power there’s also a either or for long distance cruising. KK and N may argue about the benefits of their hulls. End of day they’re both well designed classic full,displacement hulls. Two othe approaches are available to increase efficiency. Return to the ancients with long, lean and light. Or the light, long multihulls used by the Polynesians for thousands of years. Neither in sail nor power is there something new unde the sun. What’s new is the advances in hydrodynamics , design ability and material science . You pretty much know how a hull will behave efore it gets wet.
This discussion doesn’t account for these trends.
A long, lean light power boat should be significantly cheaper to run then a classic full displacement power boat. Unless you resort to serial production modular hulls the truly maximally efficient sailboat is more expensive to build. Components that maximize days work on the fast slice of pizza boat are more expensive. Annual cost of ownership will be significantly higher than for the balanced hull.
To compare total cost of ownership and annual cost of ownership you need to compare individual boats. I sat with the owner of a Dashew power boat. He’s on 65’ I was on 46’. Our programs were very similar with about the same annual miles in about the same waters. His interior volume and displacement were somewhat higher than mine. End of day once adjusted for that ours costs were about the same for time period or mile travelled.
Unlike what has been said here we used 400g total per year. 97% of miles traveled were under sail. However had very easily driven hull and full suit of sails for all conditions. That’s not always seen with non cruising sailboats.
For cruising power expect price of fuel will be more expensive for the foreseeable future. Long, lean and light hulls supplemented by hybrid and solar will continue to become more cost effective for long distance cruising as will efficient multihulls. Some will have the resources to enjoy the many comfort benefits of the FD hull. Given service life of a recreational boat is decades conversion will be slow.
Believe cost of running a FD hull is lower than SD
Cost of running a FD is higher than long, lean, light.
Cost of running super fast blue water sail is higher than a balanced hull.
Cost of running any blue water boat is higher than the same hull coastally.
These are my opinions from limited data but have been consistent over some years.

 

[ranger58sb]

I don't mind having everyone pass me, but sometimes I like to get put my foot to it and forget about the fuel.

It pretty clear at this point a trawler is a great fit for us.

We've started the wish list....

Note that you can drive faster boats slow, too. See avatar.

Not quite the same fuel economy as with most real "trawlers" (whatever they might be these days) but generally more economical than running on plane all the time. Sea states sometimes don't cooperate, of course...

Peter, interesting numbers but I would not include living expenses such as groceries, medical expenses, and any other expense one would ordinarily incur if living on land. The real cost is the incremental cost in excess of living on land.

I agree. I think Sailorboy's contribution on cruisersforum is a great template, especially for new folks who are just beginning to explore the idea, and then ideally tailored to each situation. But I think his overall accounting is maybe for his own financial purposes, and he just happens to share all that.

But were it me, and if I were only thinking about predicting or tracking boat-related incremental costs...

I wouldn't have included topics like travel away from the boat, non-boat-related insurance, food, drink, entertainment, etc. (not sure he's got all those in there anyway) just because those aren't -- to me -- expenses the boat causes.

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

I wouldn't have included topics like travel away from the boat, non-boat-related insurance, food, drink, entertainment, etc. (not sure he's got all those in there anyway) just because those aren't -- to me -- expenses the boat causes.



-Chris

My take on the Sailorboy build-up is its not about the boat, its about the lifestyle. What does it cost in total to cruise longterm on a boat? For those considering retiring or taking a hiatus, this is incredibly valuable information that is rarely tallied, and even more infrequently shared. For those wondering how much it costs to simpky own a boat, less valuable, though that information is more readily available or deduced.

Peter

 

[jbinbi]

You also need to compare purchase price.

If you are going to bahamas for the price of say a 40 foot trawler, you can get 40+ catamaran.

My 38 cat did 5.5 kts on 1 engine using 0.5 gal hour. 7.5 kts using both engines at 1 gal hour. Sailed at between 5 and 12 kts.

3 staterooms, w heads, galley, large salon, large cockpit opening into saloon.

1.2 kw of solar so only needed generator for ac. Draws 3.75 feet. Cost a bit under 500.

I think this is the ideal boat for bahamas and carrib. Doesn't roll much when moving, doesn't swing much at anchor. If you crave that sailing feel, it is not the same as a mono. But still hard to beat that feeling of shutting down the engines and have the0 boat do 7 kts under the wind with no noise. At least for me.

That said:

Looking at power as it was lots of work to keep up, volume and size is large, and sailing is more work than motoring.

 

[sunchaser]

PS
Do you like to fish? If so you are pretty well set up now to enter a bigger arena than our slow old expensive trawlers offer. Ditch the sailboat though and get a 24' Grady White or similar. A heavy duty truck and trailer are already in place per your picture. Head to BC and AK. Inland lakes (Atlin), salt water and first class touring abound.

Your learning curve will center on fly tying and tire changing. If you're really into it AZ in the winter months, what a life!

 

[Hippocampus]

Did a lot of fishing off the sailboat. Once anchored bottom fishing is no different sail or power. While the rags where up two Cuban yo-yos make it easy to troll. Yum mahi mahi for dinner.
Now on a trawler and P.O set up more rocket launchers and rod holders then anything I’ve owned before. Even rod holders on the dinghy. Unless going short distances or making tracks it’s a trolling trawler. LOL.

 

[PM]

Weebles makes very good points. Depending on how much you can cut the "dirt home" expenses it can be about the same to live on or travel on the water ie: the Loop.

Many people, often younger people but I have seen it done by all age groups. They completely sever ties to shore. Sell the house, cars, quit the jobs and move onto a cruising lifestyle. No house or car payments, no car expenses, no cable TV, etc.

It can be done but takes a special type of person or couple.

pete

 

[Hippocampus]

Pete thought a lot about this. Price of housing continues to escalate. Occasionally you want to go home for family, a break from the boat and holidays such as Xmas. Regardless of what you say sooner or later you will swallow the anchor so will need a dirt dwelling. It’s hard to get rid of everything. Family heirlooms, art, antiques and other stuff that’s valuable or very hard to replace or has emotional meaning to you. Storage is ridiculously expensive compared to storage in a house.
After crushing the numbers there was little difference between buying (in our case building) a house with cash and having to pay for storage, hotels if home and most importantly buying a house in the future. Our house was intentional built to be zero footprint and generate a small income when not occupied. Also decided to never rent it so it would be available to us whenever we wanted.
Now after a decade of nearly full time cruising have several friends who are struggling after selling everything. Due to health or age or finances they can’t cruise. They are still liveaboards but nearly stationary. They are priced out of the housing market. Their boats have gotten older and showing wear so worth less.
Selling everything is a major irreversible decision for many. For some it works out fine but the potential downside should be recognized as well. We intended to stay on the boat we had built for us. Wife fell off it and broke her ankle. Healed well but balance slightly off. Fine on a motorboat but not the foredeck of a Bluewater sailboat. Hence the NT. We now spend much more time in the dirt dwelling. The transition to back to home while she was healing was easy. Would have been difficult without a house. You never know when life will throw you a curve ball.

 

[FWT]

Something else not mentioned.

After you get a grip on average annual cost, or typical year, you then should get a grip on peak cost. Replacing systems that die can blow out financial plans if the plan is too tight.

 

[mvweebles]

Pete thought a lot about this. Price of housing continues to escalate. Occasionally you want to go home for family, a break from the boat and holidays such as Xmas. Regardless of what you say sooner or later you will swallow the anchor so will need a dirt dwelling. It’s hard to get rid of everything. Family heirlooms, art, antiques and other stuff that’s valuable or very hard to replace or has emotional meaning to you. Storage is ridiculously expensive compared to storage in a house.
After crushing the numbers there was little difference between buying (in our case building) a house with cash and having to pay for storage, hotels if home and most importantly buying a house in the future. Our house was intentional built to be zero footprint and generate a small income when not occupied. Also decided to never rent it so it would be available to us whenever we wanted.
Now after a decade of nearly full time cruising have several friends who are struggling after selling everything. Due to health or age or finances they can’t cruise. They are still liveaboards but nearly stationary. They are priced out of the housing market. Their boats have gotten older and showing wear so worth less.
Selling everything is a major irreversible decision for many. For some it works out fine but the potential downside should be recognized as well. We intended to stay on the boat we had built for us. Wife fell off it and broke her ankle. Healed well but balance slightly off. Fine on a motorboat but not the foredeck of a Bluewater sailboat. Hence the NT. We now spend much more time in the dirt dwelling. The transition to back to home while she was healing was easy. Would have been difficult without a house. You never know when life will throw you a curve ball.

Good points Hippocampus - being 100% debt free was liberating for us. Over 30-years ago, instead of buying a nice house in the suburbs like our 30-ish friends, my then-girlfriend and I bought a tiny cabin in the mountains of Colorado that was cheap ($25k) so we could keep it forever. That girlfriend is long gone, but I still have the cabin with a cellar full of the momentos you mention. My wife and I also have a small condo with a slip on the ICW that we purchased at the bottom of the market 10-years ago. It also generates enough VRBO income to more than cover itself.

I agree with you that having an anchor point is really helpful. Doesn't need to be much. We sold our main house a year ago - even though it was close to being paid off, there is no way I could quit working and comfortably take off with that financial cinder block shackled to my neck.

Being debt-free with some semblance of safety net, even an incredibly modest one, makes all the difference in the world for us. It was a conscious choice for us to be much more modest in our houses and cars and avoiding excessive debt. I know real estate is expensive right now so may have to settle for less. But that's okay - better than debt.

Peter

 

[wkearney99]

You'd do well to charter a boat in the areas you're considering. First time, charter with a captain. That'll give you a chance to observe how people that run a boat go about it.

Then charter one as "bare boat" where you have to do everything. Starting with provisioning it before departure (food, water, etc) and then deal with getting it to/from places, and managing offloading trash and black water (toilets) and obtaining new provisions (fresh water, food, liquor etc). Consider how this would go for the duration of living aboard.

It's a lot of work, and many people find it well worth the effort. But unless both parties on board understand the amount of work, and understand the distributions of labor that will be involved, you're headed for disaster.

As in, if you don't want to do all the work then your wife better not be unwilling to learn how to lend a hand.

My wife and I both love the experience of traveling on a sailboat. I know how to sail. I also know that my wife does not. And she doesn't want to engage the effort necessary to be the sort of useful crewmember that would keep me from having to DO ALL THE WORK, ALL OF THE TIME. That's not my idea of fun. Thus we do not have a sailboat.

 

[Simi 60]

.
To compare total cost of ownership and annual cost of ownership you need to compare individual boats. I sat with the owner of a Dashew power boat. He’s on 65’ I was on 46’. Our programs were very similar with about the same annual miles in about the same waters. His interior volume and displacement were somewhat higher than mine. End of day once adjusted for that ours costs were about the same for time period or mile travelled.
Unlike what has been said here we used 400g total per year. 97% of miles traveled were under sail. However had very easily driven hull and full suit of sails for all conditions. That’s not always seen with non cruising sailboats.
For cruising power expect price of fuel will be more expensive for the foreseeable future. Long, lean and light hulls supplemented by hybrid and solar will continue to become more cost effective for long distance cruising as will efficient multihulls. Some will have the resources to enjoy the many comfort benefits of the FD hull. Given service life of a recreational boat is decades conversion will be slow.
Believe cost of running a FD hull is lower than SD
Cost of running a FD is higher than long, lean, light.
Cost of running super fast blue water sail is higher than a balanced hull.
Cost of running any blue water boat is higher than the same hull coastally.
These are my opinions from limited data but have been consistent over some years.

Again, you need to take into account price of admission

That long lean and light hull supplemented by hybrid and solar will cost many times more than a full displacement - even if building yourself or buying 2nd hand

Price difference buys a lifetime of diesel plus the heavyweight has extra comfort, space and load carrying ability.

 

[Simi 60]

You'd do well to charter a boat in the areas you're considering. First time, charter with a captain. That'll give you a chance to observe how people that run a boat go about it.

Then charter one as "bare boat" where you have to do everything. Starting with provisioning it before departure (food, water, etc) and then deal with getting it to/from places, and managing offloading trash and black water (toilets) and obtaining new provisions (fresh water, food, liquor etc). Consider how this would go for the duration of living aboard.

It's a lot of work, and many people find it well worth the effort. But unless both parties on board understand the amount of work, and understand the distributions of labor that will be involved, you're headed for disaster.
.

An actual job is a lot of work, 40+ hours a week
Giving that away and full time cruising has given us that time back.

Provisioning, you need to buy food from shops and get it home and packed away
Same on a boat so no real difference there.

Watermaker is 10 minutes of effort a week flicking switches and valves

Rubbish is in heavily scented garbage bags and thrown in tender to dump in bins when going ashore.

Black water is the flick of a switch underway where you are allowed to discharge.

Typing out this reply was almost as much effort.