High Output Alternator for QSB380

[SteveandZoila]

Blower

To keep the alternator output high and the case temperature low, I installed a simple blower to cool the alternator frame. The typical alternator fan is not sufficient to dissipate the ~50% energy loss in the case. The blower turns on automatically when the engine runs.

Could you include a picture and info on your fan setup. My 5.9 Cummings have a belt guard that covers the Alternator, may need to drill some holes!

 

[Scottwb96]

Twisted-
I posted some screen shots from the app. It's REALLY not bad and simple to use. I did forget that it's only Android at this time...


DDW-
The Offgrid software does allow real time ($24.95 version). I have used/watched it on my laptop when I took the boat out for some testing...

While the cable option is obviously not the most convenient way, it does work... For me, I bought a 25' USB cable and ran it up through to my lower helm. I would like to see the USB connection redesigned. Something that was easily plugged into the side of the case, eliminating the need to unscrew/remove the casing top (and not lose the screws). I'd also like to see USB-C as the standard with a "service plug" to protect any moisture intrusion...

I do like that they have added the N2K plug option, which I have on both my units... So I do get all the data streams on my Axioms.

 

[DDW]

For your N2K, did you just plug it into the CAN on the Wakespeed, or go through a bridge of some kind? I've got Axioms too and it might be nice to see some of the data.

 

[Scottwb96]

For your N2K, did you just plug it into the CAN on the Wakespeed, or go through a bridge of some kind? I've got Axioms too and it might be nice to see some of the data.

DDW-
the "newer" version of the cable harness has an N2K connection...

 

[cosmopete]

I just installed a pair of 200amp Victron Batteries and the results are amazing, previously in the fall months we could run max two days without charging, now can stretch to 4 - which is logical based on the technology in play. I would add that you have to be VERY CAREFUL wrt your alternator and Lithium batteries - you CANNOT directly charge your lithium batteries from your alternator - else you will quickly smoke it !!!. Lithium batteries will take everything your alternator can put out until they are fully charged - which is an intolerable environment for the alternator(s) instead you need to take power off your engine start batteries and run a couple of DC to DC chargers to the house lithium. I installed three 30Amp. Lastly an intelligent Battery Management System (BMS) is critical for safety. I went all in with Victron and have not looked back. Costly to implement, but over time it balances out

 

[Tator]

I just installed a pair of 200amp Victron Batteries and the results are amazing, previously in the fall months we could run max two days without charging, now can stretch to 4 - which is logical based on the technology in play. I would add that you have to be VERY CAREFUL wrt your alternator and Lithium batteries - you CANNOT directly charge your lithium batteries from your alternator - else you will quickly smoke it !!!. Lithium batteries will take everything your alternator can put out until they are fully charged - which is an intolerable environment for the alternator(s) instead you need to take power off your engine start batteries and run a couple of DC to DC chargers to the house lithium. I installed three 30Amp. Lastly an intelligent Battery Management System (BMS) is critical for safety. I went all in with Victron and have not looked back. Costly to implement, but over time it balances out

I'm a little confused. Why not just have the alternator temp regulator control the output of the alternators. My Zena alternators (rated 150amp ea) now run at 120 amps each at cruising rpm for the two hours it takes to bulk charge my 1100/ah LA banks. I am expecting them to be able to run at the same amperage for a little bit longer when I replace the LAs this Spring with 620/ah drop-in LiPo4s. I'm also counting on my new Wakespeed regulator to control any unexpected rise in alternator temperature with a slowdown in alternator output. My new Sterling Power Alternator Protection Device should protect from any sudden shutdown.

Tator

 

[DDW]

You absolutely can charge LFP batteries from the alternator, you just need an external regulator that can do the right things, which is what the last couple of pages of this thread have been about.

DDW-
the "newer" version of the cable harness has an N2K connection...

So plugged that directly into the backbone? Apparently some are using a bridge to keep the non-N2K traffic the Wakespeed produces off the bus which in theory could pollute it.

 

[Scottwb96]

You absolutely can charge LFP batteries from the alternator, you just need an external regulator that can do the right things, which is what the last couple of pages of this thread have been about.


So plugged that directly into the backbone? Apparently some are using a bridge to keep the non-N2K traffic the Wakespeed produces off the bus which in theory could pollute it.

DDW-
That's correct. The M12 connector is the N2K "plug". You can also direct connect using the ethernet ports on the device. I have both of mine connected to eachother via the CAN-BUS (ethernet connections) and then also both connected into my N2K network as well. I haven't seen any issues w/ "polluting the network". I did notice though that I was getting 2 sep N2K PGN signals for the tachs because I also recently installed the SeaGauge G2 to convert all my gauges to N2K network (displayed on Axioms).

 

[DDW]

By "ethernet plug" I assume you mean RJ45 (ethernet and CANbus are very different things). Supposedly the Wakespeed broadcasts some proprietary (non NMEA 2000 compliant) data which may or may not cause problems with the rest of your compliant N2K gear. That's why some are using a bridge with a filter to pass only compliant data. But if it doesn't cause problems, then it doesn't.

 

[Phase3]

If the alternator is the original Cummins OEM, it is probably a Delco 19si or 22si. The 22si most easily identified as it has the 4" J180 mount while the 19si is the 2" mount. I believe both of these are rated to 200 deg F. They are intended only to charge a start battery in a car or boat. A house battery is really above their pay grade, not to mention LFP. The 24si is rated at 221 deg F and the 28si at 257 deg F. Delco publishes pretty good specs here, on most HD models you can download complete specs.

The Wakespeed 500 is the most programmable and sophisticated regulator on the market by far.

I took that belt guard off and put it in deep storage. It only gets in the way of every service task. Goes without saying to keep your hands out of the running belt.

Was the alternator putting out 100A when at 220 deg?

Hello DDW
At 220 F measured on the case by the stader the alternator was putting out 90 + Amp.
I will post my results of our trip in a couple minutes, but suffice it to say, the temps did come down with the straight run of 2/0 cables from alternator to house batteries and modifying the cover.
I am also sure (though can't find a part number without removing the alternator) that our alternator is a 19si as we have a 2" mount.

 

[Phase3]

Could you include a picture and info on your fan setup. My 5.9 Cummings have a belt guard that covers the Alternator, may need to drill some holes!

Hi Steve
I have modified the engine cover to allow better cooling access for the alternator fan. I would be very interested in seeing a picture of your set up. We actually have two blower fans in the engine room currently. Was thinking of using one of these to blow air into the alternator.

 

[Phase3]

Being near a point of FLA battery relacement, I'm gathering info on a LifePO upgrade. In addition to alternator temp compensation there's an issue with the BMS disconnecting from the charge source due to a fault, this potentially open circuits the alternator and likely fries the diodes. One suggested solution is having a AGM battery (charge parameters are similar enough) in parallel with the LifePO bank as a buffer. There are also DC to DC converters that could go between alternator and batteries and can be programmed to limit current, tho I haven't seen any rated over 100A.
I've purchased large frame 160A Leece Neville alternators for under $200, you can buy a kit to convert to external regulation, a pretty simple install.

Kabyak

We are definitely considering changing to a larger alternator, so information from members who have done this on their own QSB380s is very helpful. Leece Neville has been a brand that has come up before, so that's helpful support.

 

[DDW]

Yes the 2" mount is most likely the 19si. They transitioned to the 22 somewhere around 2007 or 2008, prior to that an option the builder would need to order.

The two parts needed are the alternator base pn 3969163 and the support arm 3971982. You’d also need the bolt for the 4”, pn 3903105 and nut 3903210. These are just a 12mm bolt but unthreaded for the portion that bears on the alternator. The base simply bolts in place of the 2" mount base. The support arm may not work with a 28si which is larger and taller than the 22si. It isn't hard to fabricate something if needed. I'd skip the bolt and nut (Cummins wants $20 for a $2 bolt there) and just get a grade 8 bolt from a good hardware store. Also the Cummins supplied is 12mm which is quite a sloppy fit, a 1/2" works better. The base and arm do not seem to be listed as a distribution item, I had to call the area distributor, then the Cummins factory support, but eventually got them, base and arm around $140 if I recall. Once you have the 4" mount there are many high output alternator possibilities.

The 28si is a tight fit but does fit. Don't go to Cummins or Seaboard Marine for these, there are many online dealers with MUCH better prices. The J180 4" short hinge mount is the one. It can be had in 160 and 180A specs, I got the 160 fearing the slightly lower output of the 180 at idle, however now I see what the 160 does I very much doubt the 180 would be a problem. On the QSB, the alternator length it a problem because of the remote oil filter lines, so check that dimension with whatever alternator you buy.

Cummins lists a different length belt for the 22si, I found the original size belt worked just fine.

 

[Phase3]

So we made it back from our early Christmas run with our son. I have attached a picture of our alternator which I believe is a 19 si as it has the 2" bracket mount. The external regulator programming was re-checked for appropriate programming as well.
The leg consisted of 4 hours traveling at 1500 rpm. The attached imaged shows the parameters measured. Everything appears to be working appropriately from a regulator point of view.
On arrival at our destination, the Maretron indicated that house batteries at anchor (engine shut down) was 13.6 V which with Battleborn is the resting 100% charge.
You can see the black temp wire attached to the side of the alternator. My temp reading with the gun was taken just above this where you see the black felt marker dot.

 

[Phase3]

Yes the 2" mount is most likely the 19si. They transitioned to the 22 somewhere around 2007 or 2008, prior to that an option the builder would need to order.

The two parts needed are the alternator base pn 3969163 and the support arm 3971982. You’d also need the bolt for the 4”, pn 3903105 and nut 3903210. These are just a 12mm bolt but unthreaded for the portion that bears on the alternator. The base simply bolts in place of the 2" mount base. The support arm may not work with a 28si which is larger and taller than the 22si. It isn't hard to fabricate something if needed. I'd skip the bolt and nut (Cummins wants $20 for a $2 bolt there) and just get a grade 8 bolt from a good hardware store. Also the Cummins supplied is 12mm which is quite a sloppy fit, a 1/2" works better. The base and arm do not seem to be listed as a distribution item, I had to call the area distributor, then the Cummins factory support, but eventually got them, base and arm around $140 if I recall. Once you have the 4" mount there are many high output alternator possibilities.

The 28si is a tight fit but does fit. Don't go to Cummins or Seaboard Marine for these, there are many online dealers with MUCH better prices. The J180 4" short hinge mount is the one. It can be had in 160 and 180A specs, I got the 160 fearing the slightly lower output of the 180 at idle, however now I see what the 160 does I very much doubt the 180 would be a problem. On the QSB, the alternator length it a problem because of the remote oil filter lines, so check that dimension with whatever alternator you buy.

Cummins lists a different length belt for the 22si, I found the original size belt worked just fine.

DDW
Thanks again for the wealth of information. I will likely start slowly collecting the parts one by one. Everything seems to be working as it was intended, but I would agree the alternator is likely working harder than it was intended to. I will use the part numbers you provided.

Brent

 

[catalinajack]

I just installed a pair of 200amp Victron Batteries and the results are amazing, previously in the fall months we could run max two days without charging, now can stretch to 4 - which is logical based on the technology in play. I would add that you have to be VERY CAREFUL wrt your alternator and Lithium batteries - you CANNOT directly charge your lithium batteries from your alternator - else you will quickly smoke it !!!. Lithium batteries will take everything your alternator can put out until they are fully charged - which is an intolerable environment for the alternator(s) instead you need to take power off your engine start batteries and run a couple of DC to DC chargers to the house lithium. I installed three 30Amp. Lastly an intelligent Battery Management System (BMS) is critical for safety. I went all in with Victron and have not looked back. Costly to implement, but over time it balances out

How long before you break even on your system as opposed to purchasing multiples of flooded lead acid batteries? Will you still own the boat by then?