Hit Me With A Dose Of Reality!

[dhays]

Jeff, those are great reasons for doing what you are contemplating. Being unencumbered, there is no time like the present.

 

[Hawgwash]

We have never, repeat, NEVER so much as piloted any boat anywhere near as large as what we are looking at.

That should not be a major problem because...

I plan on being as responsible as possible and taking as many courses as I can...

I'd much rather be around that attitude than the Grady White clowns I saw yesterday, with a naked bimbo aboard, playing high speed chicken with a 10,000 tonne ferry in Active Pass.

 

[Tom.B]

Here's the part that I am CERTAIN some people here will take massive issue with. We have never, repeat, NEVER so much as piloted any boat anywhere near as large as what we are looking at. Our experience is limited to sailing on sub 30 ft boats. So, we will be going into this starting from what I consider virtually zero.
)

That ain't nuttin. We were the same way... 16' ski boats as a kid and at camp. If you know the rules and etiquette of the waterways, that's most of the gig. The rest can't be taught in a course. Get a captain to show you the basics, remember the rules, and get out there and practice. Don't try to over learn. Just show respect to your fellow boaters... listen to advice, and be careful.

 

[koliver]

I know the OA44 quite well.

Groceries come inside by the rear door, step from the dock to the Swim Grid, into the cockpit, into the aft cabin. easy.
Main cabin will likely have moveable furniture.
Galley down is a great feature, especially with the dinette down right beside it.
Get one with a propane stove/oven, stay away from all electric galley. Then the 30 amp service will be just fine.
All are twin power.
Detroit 8.2 can be problems, look for a complete mechanical log so you know whether these ones are OK. Many are Cummins.
Covered sundeck is popular on those boats, if you get one without, find out first how
much $ to cover it. Use it first. You may find there is plenty of inside space already.

I think your GB 42 experience is misleading, as the GB 42 is at least 2 feet narrower inside, doesn't have the aft cabin going full width, may have more inside steps, in short, a much smaller boat. More like any other brand's 38. None cover their aft cabin, as the roof of that cabin is sloped too much, has a lot of other junk using the space, so not conducive to use as a sundeck.

Bayliner 4588 is way over your 50' limit.

Look at Uniflyte 42s. Many have a similar layout to the OA44, there are some around that either stretched to 48 from 42 or started out at 48. Same layout, but with a 6' long cockpit.

 

[PNW Jeff]

I know the OA44 quite well.

Groceries come inside by the rear door, step from the dock to the Swim Grid, into the cockpit, into the aft cabin. easy.
Main cabin will likely have moveable furniture.
Galley down is a great feature, especially with the dinette down right beside it.
Get one with a propane stove/oven, stay away from all electric galley. Then the 30 amp service will be just fine.
All are twin power.
Detroit 8.2 can be problems, look for a complete mechanical log so you know whether these ones are OK. Many are Cummins.
Covered sundeck is popular on those boats, if you get one without, find out first how
much $ to cover it. Use it first. You may find there is plenty of inside space already.

I think your GB 42 experience is misleading, as the GB 42 is at least 2 feet narrower inside, doesn't have the aft cabin going full width, may have more inside steps, in short, a much smaller boat. More like any other brand's 38. None cover their aft cabin, as the roof of that cabin is sloped too much, has a lot of other junk using the space, so not conducive to use as a sundeck.

Bayliner 4588 is way over your 50' limit.

Look at Uniflyte 42s. Many have a similar layout to the OA44, there are some around that either stretched to 48 from 42 or started out at 48. Same layout, but with a 6' long cockpit.

Thanks koliver, this is really helpful! It's encouraging to know that the GB42 we stayed on likely will feel quite a bit smaller than something like an OA44. Honestly, I didn't mind the size of the GB, other than really wanting a covered sundeck. That, and the steps to the forward cabin were SO narrow and tiny. I almost ate **** a few times getting down them. :lol:

I think my biggest concern with that OA is that both the ones I've seen for sale locally have the Detroit 8.2's, which it sounds like aren't the best of motors.

Interesting you mention the Unifyte 42's...I was just looking at the Chris Craft Catalina 426's thinking they looked like a great layout. My understanding is Chris Craft bought the molds from Uniflyte when they went out of business? Anyone have any thoughts on those boats? I've heard hull-blistering is their achilles heel, but I don't know how serious or wide-spread that issue is?

 

[BandB]

Even a Bayliner 4588 could exceed your length. I see one advertised with an LOA of 52'4" so you'll have to look at the specific boat carefully. The one at 52'4" has a very large swim platform and a very long bow pulpit.

 

[kev_rm]

Here's my dose of reality. If you are trying to get "pre approved" you probably can't afford it. Its not a house. its a *rapidly* depreciating asset with an insane amount of maintenance costs.

Research cost of brand new same model.
Look at your purchase price.
Divide by age of boat in years
Add 5-10% of original purchase price per year for upkeep.

that's the cost.

don't take a personal financial risk if double that would cause you concern.

 

[PNW Jeff]

Here's my dose of reality. If you are trying to get "pre approved" you probably can't afford it. Its not a house. its a *rapidly* depreciating asset with an insane amount of maintenance costs.

Research cost of brand new same model.
Look at your purchase price.
Divide by age of boat in years
Add 5-10% of original purchase price per year for upkeep.

that's the cost.

don't take a personal financial risk if double that would cause you concern.

Thank you for the contrasting opinion.

If you're saying "never finance a boat", then I accept that as a legitimate opinion on managing finances. If you're saying that because I'm getting a pre-approval that I likely cannot afford a boat, I think you misread the purpose of getting a pre-approval.

Getting a pre-approval simply will make the process simpler for everyone involved. From us knowing what the terms will be, to the broker and seller knowing we are serious buyers....it would seem I'll advised to NOT have a pre-approval in hand prior to looking at boats.

But again, I understand the concept of "never finance a toy" and tend to agree. However given that we will be living aboard the boat, and no longer renting to the tune of $1,800 per month, that entirely covers our boat payment, moorage and fees.

We're then on the hook for maintenance, which is a whole separate can of worms I don't want to open in this thread! I DO NOT expect maintenence to be inexpensive though.

 

[PNW Jeff]

Also, and I could be wrong here, but I suspect that a 30 year old boat is not a RAPIDLY depreciating object. I would have to believe at that age the bulk of depreciation has already occurred, and value is tied more to the condition in which the boat has been kept.

But yes, there is no way in hell I will make money owning a boat. BUT, considering that in currently flushing 100% of that money down the toilet (rent), at least this way I end up with an asset I own and can use and enjoy.

 

[dhays]

Kev_rm's concern about finances is legitimate. Many underestimate the cost of ownership. It does sound like you have that under control however.

 

[ranger58sb]

The only caution I would give is to start using the boat as a boat right away. The more you settle into floating condo mode, the more difficult it will be to start cruising the boat. So when you eventually do buy it, start out by getting out at least for a day every weekend to get you comfortable with using the boat, but also the transitioning between home and boat mode.

Also, what you say about using the boat as a boat from the beginning makes a ton of sense, and I will take that to heart. I keep hearing about how the majority of live-aboards never leave the dock....and I refuse to let that be us. Owning a boat on Puget Sound and not exploring the waters with it would be a damn shame.

Don't know what the waters are like up there, but around here it also helps to move the boat at least once/week, anyway... "barnacle runs" if nothing else.... to keep the bottom and underwater hardware in better shape.

Covered sundeck is popular on those boats, if you get one without, find out first how much $ to cover it. Use it first. You may find there is plenty of inside space already.

Honestly, I didn't mind the size of the GB, other than really wanting a covered sundeck.

Yep, enclosures can be expensive... but I wouldn't let this scare you away. Sunbrella, for example, can be serviceable for a long time... Tenara thread will "never" wear out... and decent polycarbonate and/or sheet vinyl do pretty well, especially if well cared for. And then if necessary, the clears can be replaced sometime down the road, at a fraction of the original enclosure cost.

Our bridge enclosure was something like $7K... in 2009... still in very good shape... and I don't anticipate having to replace it for another 10 years or so... (hoping).

-Chris

 

[k9medic]

A few thoughts -

That's a lot of money for a 26 year old boat. Most finance companies will cap you at 20 years. After that they hit you with crazy interest.

The interior layout of the boat is horrible in my opinion. Why buy a boat that takes up interior space with a control station.

If you're only going to do short trips from the dock why stick to diesel? You could have a significant savings with a gas boat.

Maybe I'm bias but here is a nice 420AC on the west coast -

1998 Sea Ray 420 Aft Cabin Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

 

[PNW Jeff]

A few thoughts -

That's a lot of money for a 26 year old boat. Most finance companies will cap you at 20 years. After that they hit you with crazy interest.

The interior layout of the boat is horrible in my opinion. Why buy a boat that takes up interior space with a control station.

If you're only going to do short trips from the dock why stick to diesel? You could have a significant savings with a gas boat.

Maybe I'm bias but here is a nice 420AC on the west coast -

1998 Sea Ray 420 Aft Cabin Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I hadn't thought much about Sea Rays, but that is a nice layout...and a much newer boat. As far as gas vs diesel, I hadn't thought too much about that wither since 90% of the boats with the layout we are looking for seem to be diesel anyway. I'm not deadset against gas though

 

[k9medic]

We spend almost every weekend at the dock on our 420AC. It's plenty big enough for us and our two boys. About once every three months we take a long weekend trip and every summer we are gone for three weeks on it.


The deals are out there for sure.

A friend of mine just got a heck of a deal on a gas Carver 356 aft cabin too. It was listed at $50K and he paid $35K.

1999 Carver 356 Aft Cabin Motor Yacht Power Boat For Sale -

 

[JDCAVE]

The next step for us, after we get pre-approval on a loan, is to step on board as many boats as possible to see what they *actually* look and feel like. We've been on probably a dozen boats in this size range and even stayed on a GB 42' for a few days....but I fully realize we are nowhere close to narrowing our search to the eventual boat that suits us best.

That's REALLY important and I'm glad you understand that. It's something I stress after our boat buying experience. The search took over 2 years and our views changed several times. Since you are considering a live aboard lifestyle, consider requesting to visit live aboard vessels to see how people actually live, particularly in winter. In the PNW, moisture is an issue. AND you will want a washer and dryer. It gets tired real fast running to laundromats all the time.

Jim

 

[JDCAVE]

...I'd also add that the diesel Dickensen heaters are much more efficient and cheaper to install than the hydronic heaters (we have hydronic). A former school chum of mine is a full time live aboard in Victoria and he finds humidity on a boat is a real battle, but you can combat that with dehumidifiers. Not expensive "boat" dehumidifiers but once she purpose built for houses.

 

[Hawgwash]

I still think the living aboard aspect of this adventure needs to be explored and talked about in greater detail, particularly west coast live aboard.

8 months of limited natural light to a dark wood interior with incandescent lights?
A 40 gallon holding tank for a working couple?
Marina water supply shut off?
Loss of power?
Washer, dryer?

Relationship enhancement or death knell?

Jeff, the buying and operation chapters are the easy part and a lot of people on here can advise (good or bad) on those but, few have moved from 800 sq. ft. with all the conveniences to 300 sq. ft. with a communal bathroom 800 yards away in 4 inches of snow. A bathroom and shower where you don’t control the Mr. Clean. A bathroom that will be out of order the morning of your office Christmas party.

Spend some time, both of you, reading the live aboard threads and tell me you didn’t get some good eye openers.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s30/

There is also a substantial difference between a live aboard working couple and singles or retired live aboard cruisers.

I was going to mention moisture but I just discovered your "Mold" thread and JDCave above, enhanced that discussion.

The only thing "living aboard a 42 GB for 3 days" did was add more stars to the eyes. Chase and fulfill your dream but don't lose the key word in your question here; "reality."

 

[Seevee]

Jeff,

I thing you have your head screwed on straight and it will work fine for you.
A few things you have going for you:

You have age on your side and probably have the stamina to get things done, make mistakes and recover.

You have income, and hopefully good and it will continue to grow. Does the wife work, too?

You've done some research and you'll do more, and getting advise from folks here that have the boat you want is priceless.... you'll get a lot of good idea and negative comments, all good, just sort them out.

You sound flexible, so if A does't work, B will.

You're willing to get training, which is important, but you'll probably find it's easier than your smaller boats unless you hit something really hard. (I just finished a training session and it's priceless and will do more).

Don't pay a lot of attention to the comments about your lack of experience, little time in bad weather, never have handled a big boat, never lived aboard, etc. The only way you'll get the experience is DO IT. If you don't like it, so what.

======
A few things against you:

This is new to you, lots of unknowns that you'll deal with... some could be significant.

The total financial picture will eat away from your net worth... probably a lot more than renting a house. Just a guess.... slip rent $600 mo., boat payment $1100 mo (with a cheap loan, if you can get it, and $50k down), and you're almost at your rent of $1800. Now add in maintenance, insurance, fuel, improvements which are all expenses you don't have now. I'd never finance a boat, but as a house, could be ok. I'd buy a rental house and use those dollars to pay for the boat.... you'd probably need a few and that would take some time and education, too. If you saved enough to pay cash, it will take some time out of your life that you're not on the boat, so that won't work, either. But if you have good income, I'd argue to get financing at the lowest rate you can find. And, seller financing is an option, too, especially on boats that don't sell fast. I buy everything with seller financing or cash and works great, but can be a challenge at times. But you can deduct loan expenses and interest. You will want a cushion in the bank.

 

[BandB]

The only thing "living aboard a 42 GB for 3 days" did was add more stars to the eyes. Chase and fulfill your dream but don't lose the key word in your question here; "reality."

You could probably live in a tent for three days happily. He's right that the three day trial likely did nothing constructive. Did you examine carefully what you could fit on the boat, where you would store what, the cooking arrangements, the quiet time apart capability, showering, laundering, different weather conditions, disposing of waste, power and water outages. If you do a repeat session, do it with a critical eye. Look at every amenity you have on land and discuss honestly how you'll be without them.

When the weather is beautiful outside and you can be on the deck, use the dock, look out on the horizon wear your bathing suits, take in the beauty around you and not have any responsibilities like work, it's one thing. However, when the weather is unfit for any living creature and you're confined to a tight indoor space and have no television working, your wifi out at the marina so you can't download to your kindle, and one of you needs to get out in it and go to the store, then it's different.

Each person will be bothered by different aspects.

You may love it, but you do need to examine it very carefully.

 

[knotheadcharters]

I think we all are a little biased but have you looked at 45-48 Californians? Yes it is what I own but they are tremendous liveaboards. Very roomy, well built boats. 88-93 were the production years. Mine is an 89 3 stateroom layout, I use the mid-berth as a walk-in closet.


On the 48 the back deck is 15x13. You will not find a larger sundeck on a 48 foot boat. It was what sold me on buying mine. plus a full size refrigerator

 

[Moonfish]

Jeff, you two are going to have a lot of fun with this whole process! I agree with Seevee. You seem to have your head screwed on straight, and I think you're approaching this with the right combination of enthusiasm and pragmatism.

Gotta admit that sundeck looks pretty nice! Of course, as a fellow liveaboard/workaboard here in the PNW, I'd probably refer to that as the "sunroom"...

 

[FF]

Our "lobster yacht" has a huge back deck.

$60 at a big box store got a 10x10 self standing yard shade.Still works after a decade.

That less than the sales tax on other methods.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Our "lobster yacht" has a huge back deck.

$60 at a big box store got a 10x10 self standing yard shade.Still works after a decade.

That less than the sales tax on other methods.

I had an unused umbrella in my basement. I made 2 supports using fish rod holders, now I am the only boat around that has an umbrella on the aft deck. People find it funny to look at but it is very enjoyable to take a drink under the shade of the umbrella during hot days

All this to say that like you mentioned, things not intended to be on boats can be adapted with a bit of imagination and will cost far less than specialized marine gear.

L.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: LIGHTEN UP!

I mean this both literally and figuratively when it comes to boats or homes, but even more when it's a boat home. I'll give you two scenarios.

There's a couple. We'll call them the Unhappy's. They got the boat, it's at the marina. It's cold, damp, and dark. They pictured the sunshine but they forgot about all the dark dreary days of winter and they're imprisoned by it. They want to just scream. The dark woods they loved are so depressing. The brown sofa they no longer like. The tight galley is like being sardines in a can. Then to go below to the basement or what is more like a dungeon, their cabin. They have black out blinds for privacy. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then there's a couple, we'll call them Bruce and Dorsey. Just look at the hull of their boat in that special sea foam shade or whatever it's official name is. It's like a breath of fresh air. And the interior. They're a bit freaky but its so alive and just makes you smile and enjoy and windows to the world. They're not imprisoned in this dark and dreary salon, cut off from the world. They are looking out on and enjoying the world.

Now, you say, I'm not building a new boat, I can't do that. But in selecting, think about how it's going to feel the worst days of the year. There was a family decided they'd live aboard in Boston. Oh, they could keep warm as they had heat and wrapped the entire boat for the winter. It was like living in a box with no holes to breathe through. The docks were snowy and icy. See, they got the boat in the Gulf and used it first in Florida and the Bahamas. You might not have noticed but a huge difference in the Bahamas and Boston during the winter.

What you can do is look at how much of a view, the windows. Feel the colors. There's a tendency in luxury boats toward law office decoration. Dark woods, dark granite counters. Do you really want to think of a law office? Some of the European boats are strange at first sight but they have pizzazz. Light. Spicy. And it's great if the boat you find starts that way, you can't make something out of nothing, but you can open it up, have blinds that let sun through, put a cover on the aft deck so you can use it year round, on the bridge if you have one. Select bright colors, even some that make people laugh at first. Colors and sunlight to invigorate the senses. One opinion I've formed but those smarter than me say this too is that the smaller the space, the lighter it needs to be. Even on a larger boat where we have rich maple walls, we have pastel colored sofas, baby blue to be exact. Might not be your thing but it's mine. Our galley isn't heavy and dark. Nope, it's got a lot of stainless steel and the countertops are white. Think of how tiny your bathroom on the boat is. Well, have light and bright towels. Light counter tops if you have a choice. Mirrors always help with space and opening things up.

So, think of how the boat will feel on the ugliest, stormiest day of the year. It's all under your control. You can select and create the environment you want. Simple things like a little paint or a different floor covering or throw pillows, the cheap decorators tool kit. Don't close yourself away, but open to the world that is out there when you live on the water. I look at Mark's Coot and the yellow just changes the entire personality of the boat.

End of Wifey B school of decorating a boat.

School closed, now time for breakfast. :lol:

 

[PNW Jeff]

Wifey B: LIGHTEN UP!

End of Wifey B school of decorating a boat.

School closed, now time for breakfast. :lol:

Great tips! Thank you for sharing! Makes sense to do what can be done to brighten things up inside the boat, especially for winter months.

It's also one of the reasons a fully enclosed sundeck and flybridge seems like a MUST to us being in the PNW

 

[Bacchus]

Jeff
I can't add meaningfully re specific boats...others are doing that well. Those are only in my dreams.
Server and Moonfish echoed my thoughts very well.
This seems like a well thought out plan...and attitude and aptitude should make it work for you & yours.
None of us know your finances like you do. Sounds like you are realistic about that as well...not surprising if you run your own business you must have some level of appreciation for the finances.
I say why wouldn't you go for it?
You will never regret trying it even if the long term solution turns out differently...you would regret never trying.
My money is on this adventure working out well...please be sure to report back in the future

 

[PNW Jeff]

Jeff
I can't add meaningfully re specific boats...others are doing that well. Those are only in my dreams.
Server and Moonfish echoed my thoughts very well.
This seems like a well thought out plan...and attitude and aptitude should make it work for you & yours.
None of us know your finances like you do. Sounds like you are realistic about that as well...not surprising if you run your own business you must have some level of appreciation for the finances.
I say why wouldn't you go for it?
You will never regret trying it even if the long term solution turns out differently...you would regret never trying.
My money is on this adventure working out well...please be sure to report back in the future

Thank you Don, very well put. I echo your sentiment about regret coming from NOT doing something, rather than doing something that doesn't work out.

I will certainly report back with updates.

Speaking of which, we hit our first real roadblock yesterday. Heard back from the marine finance broker saying they will not (more like cannot) finance a boat for a live aboard.

My understanding is that a law was passed a handful of years back that made financing liveaboard too difficult or risky. We were pointed towards Essex lending. Looking at their website, it looks like they DO finance boats and RVs for liveaboard.

Anyone have any experience with Essex?

 

[Codger2]

I do want to check out a few of the 4588's as part of our search as well.

I was going to suggest the Bayliner 4588 as a friend of mine had one that he lived on for years and loved it! As a matter of fact, I saw that boat yesterday on San Diego bay, still going strong 20 years after I first saw it.

 

[Codger2]

I still think the living aboard aspect of this adventure needs to be explored and talked about in greater detail, particularly west coast live aboard.......Spend some time, both of you, reading the live aboard threads and tell me you didn’t get some good eye openers.http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s30/

The only thing "living aboard a 42 GB for 3 days" did was add more stars to the eyes. Chase and fulfill your dream but don't lose the key word in your question here; "reality."

Damn good advice!

 

[Hawgwash]

I echo your sentiment about regret coming from NOT doing something, rather than doing something that doesn't work out.

Speaking of which, we hit our first real roadblock yesterday. Heard back from the marine finance broker saying they will not (more like cannot) finance a boat for a live aboard.

Jeff;
I know I am one of only a couple contrarians here and you seem to prefer the Eckhart Tolle approach rather than Dr. Phil; “what the hell are you thinkin?”

I’ve just read over all your threads from when you first posted on how to get a broker.

I am going some by what you say (“I didn’t think of that”) and much by what you don’t.

If you were my kid, I would take you out for dinner Sunday night but, before dinner, we would spend the equivalent of a working day (8-10 hours) at marinas, talking and seriously listening to live aboard boaters, because I think that is your Achilles heel.

I sense a “wasted rent” driven fantasy and I encourage you to reread those same threads, paying particular attention to the “reality” based BandB throughout and Tucker Fallon, who a month ago foretold the possible monetary hurdles.
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s62/financing-insurance-liveaboard-32517.html

Couple quick questions about moorage;
When you put your name on a 1 to 2 year waitlist, did Shilshole know it was for live aboard and what assurance do you have that, come the time, the 300 live aboard limit doesn’t have an additional wait?

Have you explored the rate/cost difference between regular and live aboard moorage?

Have you thought about where you will live when the boat goes on the hard for 2-4-6 weeks?

Have you really done the math that says “yes, what we are paying in rent will cover our live aboard costs AND financing? Have you thought about the cost of rent, alternate moorage AND financing during the 1 to 2 (plus?) year wait for Shilshole?

Why do I care?
Why the cynicism?
Because I see a greater potential, in this case, for heartbreak than happiness.

I’d rather have given you something more to think about and be wrong, than regret having said nothing.