How to build a network on your boat

[Jeffrey S]

I respectfully disagree with your analysis that cellular data is on the way out and WIFI is the preferred medium.

That was the wrong thing to draw from my comments. I never purposely implied that cellular was out in any way. If anything, I totally agree that cellular is likely to replace WAN WiFi everywhere.

What I was referring to was the CradlePoint. They used to be a Swiss Army knife. You could plug in an aircard, WiFi WAN, or other Ethernet WAN to provide routing for your entire boat. Today, the need for that has largely gone away. Today, nearly all cellular devices speak WiFi as a hotspot. It makes it unnecessary to have a special hardware cellular interface (aircard, USB stick modem, etc).

WiFi will still be used for high bandwidth items like streaming video as long as the plans are not unlimited - and unlimited plans are probably coming. What has happened with WiFi is that it has taken over as the medium for connecting those last 10 feet to each device. It's already hard to find a TV without WiFi. Soon, all chartplotters will have it as well. And when everything is using a very open, wireless interface like WiFi, CradlePoint's end up having very little added benefit.

 

[ksanders]

Ok now I understand but with that understanding unfortunately I still disagree.

Devices like the cradle point and other brands of the same concept offer a couple of things no "standard" cellular devices offer.

1. A always there connection. If you are not on the boat some systems still need to get to the Internet.

2. Inter device communication. A wifi hot spot from a mifi or a iPhone is generally not a layer 2 switch emulation. That means devices cannot talk to each other.

3. Wired access. Some devices need wired access. Some just work better with wired access.

So, in my opinion the need for a router and a layer 2 switch on a boat is not in the foreseeable future going to decrease, it will actually increase.

This is brand independent. The need for the functionality is the key here. Cradle point is just one player in the market.

Something that we both probably agree on, is that the USB modem's days are numbered . This will force the cellular router manufacturers to modify their design to include cellular radios, where now only the most advanced models offer that.

On the flipside, that change in technology will free the cellular router manufacturers from the endless game of coming up with new drivers for new USB modems.

 

[Jeffrey S]

1. A always there connection. If you are not on the boat some systems still need to get to the Internet.

You don't need a CradlePoint for that. Many normal routers have WiFi WAN modes now including automatic switch-over (which is a dangerous thing for most people on boats).

2. Inter device communication. A wifi hot spot from a mifi or a iPhone is generally not a layer 2 switch emulation. That means devices cannot talk to each other.

That information is about 2 years out of date. All MiFi devices act as full routers today. iPhone hotspots too. It used to be that they wouldn't do the routing parts. Now they all do - they have to.

3. Wired access. Some devices need wired access. Some just work better with wired access.

Again, any $39 router does that. You definitely don't need an expensive CradlePoint for it.

So, in my opinion the need for a router and a layer 2 switch on a boat is not in the foreseeable future going to decrease, it will actually increase.

You obviously haven't tried some of the more current devices in a while. My normal development environment requires inter-device communications. We often are only using MiFi's onboard to run the entire network.

Hey, if you like the CradlePoint, buy their products. Buy stock in them. It's all OK. It's not something I need to convince anyone of otherwise. My point always was that the need for CradlePoint isn't what it was in 2008. The niche they had for nearly 10 years on boats is pretty much gone.

 

[ksanders]

You don't need a CradlePoint for that. Many normal routers have WiFi WAN modes now including automatic switch-over (which is a dangerous thing for most people on boats).


That information is about 2 years out of date. All MiFi devices act as full routers today. iPhone hotspots too. It used to be that they wouldn't do the routing parts. Now they all do - they have to.


Again, any $39 router does that. You definitely don't need an expensive CradlePoint for it.


You obviously haven't tried some of the more current devices in a while. My normal development environment requires inter-device communications. We often are only using MiFi's onboard to run the entire network.

Hey, if you like the CradlePoint, buy their products. Buy stock in them. It's all OK. It's not something I need to convince anyone of otherwise. My point always was that the need for CradlePoint isn't what it was in 2008. The niche they had for nearly 10 years on boats is pretty much gone.

Jeffery


Jeffery, There allot of ways to engineer a network.

I have in this thread presented a viable, able to be purchased today network topology that is easy to understand, easy to install, and requires no human intervention during normal operation.

You have presented a disjointed accumulation of advice that even a networking professional finds hard to follow the logic of.

Here's a challenge...

Why don't you present your network topology, including listing devices that real TF members can buy that provides the same functionality.

Remember the criteria.

It must provide an always on connection, anywhere, any time, even when you are not on the boat. That means at a marina, or anchor'd off somewhere.

It must provide a solution that does not require you to screw with it to make it work.

Simple challenge I'd say. I think you can do it, but I am curious as to how many devices you'll need.

 

[FlyWright]

No, it doesn't take a Cradlepoint to do the stuff we want or need, but having a dedicated router seems to be the best of both worlds for me, too. Not everyone is tech savvy (myself included) and the simpler I can make it for my crew and guests, the better. When the Admiral walks onboard with her laptop, she auto-connects to the wifi and it's just like she's at home. Same with my guests...if they need wifi, it's easy for them to recognize the boat's network and hook up with my password.

I happen to have a Cradlepoint and love it, but I could probably do it with a less expensive router, too. The Cradlepoint has many more capabilities than I'll probably ever use.

 

[Jeffrey S]

I've written extensively about network architectures to have onboard in our weekly newsletter over the last 7 years. There is no one-size-fits-all for a network on a boat. There are many factors and needs.

If you can come up with a single list of devices to buy, then make a big purchase and sell the solution to the few thousand boaters who are looking for it. You'll understand exactly what I'm talking about when you get flooded with complexities that you never imagined.

Hey - I've added enough to this discussion. Creating a network onboard is going to continue to be very important. I hope everyone finds their way.

 

[Donsan]

It would be nice if some one in the marine or mobile world would support AC1900.

 

[ksanders]

I've written extensively about network architectures to have onboard in our weekly newsletter over the last 7 years. There is no one-size-fits-all for a network on a boat. There are many factors and needs.

If you can come up with a single list of devices to buy, then make a big purchase and sell the solution to the few thousand boaters who are looking for it. You'll understand exactly what I'm talking about when you get flooded with complexities that you never imagined.

Hey - I've added enough to this discussion. Creating a network onboard is going to continue to be very important. I hope everyone finds their way.

Jeffery, more smoke and mirrors. When you tell someone they are incorrect you need to step up to the plate and prove it. When you tell someone you have a better way, again, you need to step up to the plate and show you have a better solution.

Here's my solution, no smoke, no mirrors, no confusing things at all.

1. Go to your favorite cellular providers store and buy a usb modem. If they do not offer one, buy a sim card.

2. Buy a cellular router with a built in layer 2 switch. Pick your brand but check before hand compatibility with your the cellular device you bought in step 1 above. I chose Cradle Point. The models I like are the MBR1200 and 1400.

2. Follow the easy to understand instructions that come with the cellular router.

3. Enjoy your new network.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

What happens when you need to use the phone Capt.?

You pick it up and dial, answer it or just ignore it.

 

[Aquabelle]

Kevin: I get what you are saying, but I think most (?) of us would prefer a cellular solution that just worked off our smartphone's ability to serve as a hotspot, rather than having to go buy another device (eg: a usb modem). I think those things are fast fading in the marketplace given the power of the current crop of smartphones. Very carrier and country specific, but apart from the extra hardware there's often negotiating a new plan or a plan add-on, separate billing, etc etc....as opposed to just finding a phone plan that can be cranked up on the data side just enough to cover boat-time needs. Only a very minor quibble though and I know some carriers, in some markets, offer great deals on the usb modems. Jeff has written extensively -- and really compellingly -- over at least 7 AC newsletters about how he approaches the cellular/wifi thing. One of his comments really worked for me: with an external wifi antenna (eg bullet/IslandPC/RogueWave types plugged into router's WAN port), you can use the wifi hotspot to find the smartphone hotspot & connect to it..and you suddenly have cellular access without needing a usb modem. And at least on my Samsung S4, I have a hotspot setting that allows me to prioritize wifi over cellular so I can create a fail-back if I'm on wifi but it drops out and I want to stay connected (at all costs!) to the 'net.


Stepping back, I think there seems to be general agreement that for many folks, a decent domestic router with a WAN port plugged to a 'boosted' wifi antenna; as many ethernet ports as you need for must/best if wired devices (like my Furuno NN3D MFD & radar); and wifi for all the wireless devices so everything can share data and the I/net connection, is the basic topology for today. Of course it will be different in 5 years or less, as technologies shift in ways we cannot predict...but that's ok, we're now used to changing technologies in these spaces that frequently, at least, anyway now.

 

[Wxx3]

Thanks Kevin,

My system: 24" LCD monitors, Computer, wifi, router, Groove Wifi Extender and AIS are all 12v.

The Router is MikroTik

 

[ksanders]

Kevin: I get what you are saying, but I think most (?) of us would prefer a cellular solution that just worked off our smartphone's ability to serve as a hotspot, rather than having to go buy another device (eg: a usb modem). I think those things are fast fading in the marketplace given the power of the current crop of smartphones. Very carrier and country specific, but apart from the extra hardware there's often negotiating a new plan or a plan add-on, separate billing, etc etc....as opposed to just finding a phone plan that can be cranked up on the data side just enough to cover boat-time needs. Only a very minor quibble though and I know some carriers, in some markets, offer great deals on the usb modems. Jeff has written extensively -- and really compellingly -- over at least 7 AC newsletters about how he approaches the cellular/wifi thing. One of his comments really worked for me: with an external wifi antenna (eg bullet/IslandPC/RogueWave types plugged into router's WAN port), you can use the wifi hotspot to find the smartphone hotspot & connect to it..and you suddenly have cellular access without needing a usb modem. And at least on my Samsung S4, I have a hotspot setting that allows me to prioritize wifi over cellular so I can create a fail-back if I'm on wifi but it drops out and I want to stay connected (at all costs!) to the 'net.


Stepping back, I think there seems to be general agreement that for many folks, a decent domestic router with a WAN port plugged to a 'boosted' wifi antenna; as many ethernet ports as you need for must/best if wired devices (like my Furuno NN3D MFD & radar); and wifi for all the wireless devices so everything can share data and the I/net connection, is the basic topology for today. Of course it will be different in 5 years or less, as technologies shift in ways we cannot predict...but that's ok, we're now used to changing technologies in these spaces that frequently, at least, anyway now.

Yes, that is a dooable solution, and will work well for many situations. If I am reading your post properly, you are indicating the use of a router with wifi as a WAN gateway, incorporating a layer 2 switch. THANKS for posting that. It answers the question I brought up in a previous post.

My preferred solution is exactly that with the addition of cellular capability, not requiring the use of someones phone.

The good thing is that your solution (using the phones hot spot as a WAN gateway) incurs no recurring costs, and about $100 less cost to set up initially, although running cable for a wifi booster antenna can be labor intensive in some boats.

The limitation is that it requires the cell phone to be on board, or someone's wifi signal to connect to.

With AT&T (my carrier) getting either a USB modem or a new SIM card required a visit to the local AT&T store. Since we have a "family plan" there was no extra billing hassles, we just added the new sim card to our existing group plan. The cost is $10 per month.

AS I indicated I see less and less need for "free" wifi access as cellular data rates fall. Free wifi hot spots had their day. Prior to inexpensive cellular data people actually sought out and frequented establishments offering free wifi access. But alas, just like the old "color TV" advertisements we occasionally see on a aging motel, the "free wifi" advertising will fade away as technology replaces the need.

 

[Carolena]

Just want to offer up a rather simple solution for wifi that we have been using on our boat for several months. The project started because we put a new LED TV and Roku on the boat, but found that the WIFI signal at our marina was a little weak in our slip, which led to a lot of buffering. I didn't want to spend a ton of money, and certainly didn't need a very long range WIFI like the expensive options out there. We wound up getting a Netgear Trek, which sells for around $40.

The trek plugs into a regular AC outlet, but will also run off of a USB connection. Becuase the pilot house is the highest inside spot on the boat, that is where I placed it. We run it off a USB plug through a cigarette lighter outlet. The larger antenna is enough to give us a solid signal, and the WIFI reaches the entire boat (I can actually connect to it from several docks over). It certainly won't reach long distances like other dedicated options, but it gives us just the boost we need when in the slip. It also acts as a WIFI router, which we connect to with the Roku and our phones when on the boat and in the slip. It was really easy to set up and didn't cost much. Just another option.

 

[CPseudonym]

"Free Wi-Fi" although convenient(read here cheap) is far from "secure". Anyone basing a network upon unsecured wi-fi gets exactly what they deserve IMO. About as safe as unprotected sex in a Sierra Leone brothel.

All of my banking and financial services have been done exclusively online for over a decade and I've yet to suffer a data breach. I also religiously avoid free wi-fi. Coincidence? I think not. Spend a few extra bucks on cellular data and save yourself a boatload of trouble is my thought.

 

[N4712]

"Free Wi-Fi" although convenient(read here cheap) is far from "secure". Anyone basing a network upon unsecured wi-fi gets exactly what they deserve IMO. About as safe as unprotected sex in a Sierra Leone brothel.

All of my banking and financial services have been done exclusively online for over a decade and I've yet to suffer a data breach. I also religiously avoid free wi-fi. Coincidence? I think not. Spend a few extra bucks on cellular data and save yourself a boatload of trouble is my thought.

In some places like the Bahamas you get what you can get. Now anyone bright enough to do online shopping or banking on a open connection with out a VPN kinda deserves it.

 

[psneeld]

I am less worried about my personal info/financial info over wifi than ever.

Heck my identity has been compromised through stolen credit card info, Home Depot hacking, US Govt pay hacking, bank hacking....if I think longer there may have been a few others.

Never once by unsecured wifi.

 

[Aquabelle]

This is my own setup: illustrates what I was trying to explain at post #40

 

[ksanders]

This is my own setup: illustrates what I was trying to explain at post #40

Yes an effective solution.

My network is pretty much the same with two excpetions.

1. The WAN side of my router prefers a permenant cellular gateway
2. The cellular gateway fails back to a satellite com system.

We don't use WIFI as a WAN source. I'm not all that fond of WIFI as a WAN gateway. The main reason is that I like to set up a network and have it always work. WIFI requires you to get involved at every new harbor.

WIFI might be free but in the over all scheme of things cellular data is insignificant in its cost, at least from my thinking. The same goes with using my IPhone as a WAN gateway. Yes, it works, but my cellular provider charges me $10 a month for a sim card on my shared data plan.

There's allot of reasons I do not use public WIFI. One iis the uncertanity of a signal and bandwidth. For me adding a directional antenna, etc... is more hassle than the little savings I would realize over cellular. Another iis that I do not want to wifi proovider keeping track of where I go on the internet. for example I've seen wifi providers that limit or exclude streaming services like Itunes, which I use for my entertainment. Yes I could hire a VPN service but by the tiime I do that I'm adding complexity and cost to my network.

So yes, your network is an excellent solution for someone that prefers a wifi WAN gateway.

 

[Aquabelle]

Kevin: the choice between cellular & wifi is really a matter of price & availability (given VPNs are used to address security concerns). Price & availability vary enormously between carrier and regions even in the USA...and perhaps even more in other countries. Who can say how the providers will evolve and compete? In my own country (Australia) for example, the dominant Telco (once state-owned) is re-inventing its public phone booths (which had fallen into disuse with the burgeoning of mobile phone take-up) into 'free' WiFi hot-spots...a neat leveraging of the two technologies. My network is all about choices: if I'm somewhere I can reach a free wifi hotspot, I'll jump on it. If I'm not, I can use the cellular network if it is available and just decide whether my need for connectedness justifies the high (for now) cost.

 

[Panhandler]

I'm dredging this topic back up because I wish I had read it a month ago. I'm setting up the network on our boat and currently have a tp-link router running dd-wrt set as a client device. Through the boosted parabolic antenna I can connect to distant wifi spots or just to a cellular hotspot. This client router acts as the WAN connection to another router, the access point, which allows for a SPI firewall. IP cameras can be hardwired to the access point router and all devices can connect to it. Now I just need to figure out how to get the AP router to use a VPN rather than having individual devices use a VPN.

I'd be interested to hear how anyone else has done installations in the past year since this thread was active!

 

[ksanders]

I'm dredging this topic back up because I wish I had read it a month ago. I'm setting up the network on our boat and currently have a tp-link router running dd-wrt set as a client device. Through the boosted parabolic antenna I can connect to distant wifi spots or just to a cellular hotspot. This client router acts as the WAN connection to another router, the access point, which allows for a SPI firewall. IP cameras can be hardwired to the access point router and all devices can connect to it. Now I just need to figure out how to get the AP router to use a VPN rather than having individual devices use a VPN.

I'd be interested to hear how anyone else has done installations in the past year since this thread was active!

Depends on the router you use (how to do a router based VPN, and what protocols are available)

Personally, excpet for the ability to secure a wifi as wan connection, I do not see any real advantage of using a router based VPN on a boat.

Client side VPN's are easy to establish for things like secure corporate access, etc...

We still use a Cradlepoint solution MBR1200B which I think is a current production router.