How to determine your limits...

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I gotta agree with Fish mostly.


The real trick is to know when even a slight mistake of yours will cause such a great amount of damage it either jeopardizes your well being or financial well being.


But in most cases, tearing into something, if the procedure is well researched, that shouldn't happen and yes...when you get to that point...you call in the pros to finish up. As long as you haven't messed up too bad...the prep, ordering the parts and partial disassembly may save quite a bit from calling in a pro cold.



Just because one does DIY doesn't mean it isn't as good or even better than when a pro does it.


And Fish is right that being a big part of a repair can help with troubleshooting and repair when there is no one to call to get you going again.



I have worked side by side with many pros in the marine business.....many don't follow the install instructions because they "know better"..."were taught by the old timers".
 
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uhhh.... oil change? :lol:

oil changes are very easy if you have a Reverso oil changing system. Changing the filter is the only possibly difficult part, depending on its location.
 
oil changes are very easy if you have a Reverso oil changing system. Changing the filter is the only possibly difficult part, depending on its location.

Oil changes are very easy without a Reverso oil changing system.
At least they are on our main and Genset.
 
The question I always have to ask you and others is, "how do you value your own time?"

Clearly you have time invested in doing this and including all the time, looking on line, talking to father, I'm guessing quite a few hours when all is said and done. 4? 6? 8?

Time, like money, has value. Some of that value can be converted to dollars and cents. Do you value it based on what you earn per hour in your work? Do you value it at zero on the basis you wouldn't be doing anything else or you really enjoy doing this? Or do you value it based on other things you could do instead like time with family or playing golf or something?

Some thought examples:

#1-Figures it would take them 5 hours They earn $40 an hour and can get all the work they want on their job and prefer doing their work to this. So $200 vs $200, no savings and don't enjoy it.

#2-Finds doing this work very rewarding. No way they would prefer to spend the time. Saving $200 is just an additional benefit.

#3-Partner constantly complaining about them spending time working on boat rather than leisure time with them. Value of time immeasurable and well worth the $200 cost to avoid doing this.

#4-Retired. Only other work is driving Uber and makes $11 an hour doing so. Spends 4 hours doing this so well worth it to save $200 while using $44 worth of personal labor.

#5-Loves learning and doing work like this and doesn't care what the cost, prefers doing it oneself.

#6-Absolutely hates doing work like this. Would rather be with partner doing anything else and doesn't care what the cost is to pay others to do it.

We all look at these things differently. I do value time highly and look at how I'd prefer to spend it, but that leads to unique decisions too. Here's an example many might do differently. My wife and I are to make a trip to NC. The drive is 10.5 hours so with stopping and fueling and eating lets say 12 hours and cost is likely $350 or so. Can fly in 2 hours but including getting to airport and all perhaps say 4 hours and 2 tickets $308. So save $42 and 6.5 hours, clearly better it would seem? But....I don't like flying. I especially don't like flying commercial. I love the drive with my wife. We sing, we talk, we make it special. So, we always drive it. I put negative value on time spent in airports and on airplanes and positive value on time riding in a car with my wife. It's not that I ignore the value of time, I very much consider it.


BandB,


As mentioned before ones time has value, too, and I'd bet a lot of us take that into consideration.



There are some that are willing to go grunt work to save the $20/hour guy, but most won't. Even the $100/hour guy is often worth the price, especially if they have considerably more skills and you just don't like the job. And I'd argue that there is a LOT of us that value their time way more than what a mechanic is paid. I feel this way even in retirement. My time is actually MORE valuable retired.



But things like oil changes, belts, hoses, etc. A lot of us can do them in almost the time it takes to just talk with the mechanic and write the check, so we do them ourselves out of convenience.



And, there is an argument to have an understanding of what can stop a boat cold when there are just no mechanics around.... yes, even well maintained boats can have this issue, fortunately rare.


And there's the issue of incompetent mechanics, and there's a LOT of them. If one is not at least knowledgeable, they may never know if the mechanic screws something up that will cost a lot later. I've had that happen MANY times. (It's worse in aviation....happens, too). For that I avoid boat "yards" like the plague. My biggest issues have been with yards or larger maintenance shops that had the job to the least competent employee. I want the mechanic I talk with to be the one doing the word. I also insist on being there, if I want and some yards don't permit this.



One of my more notorious times of incompetent maintenance was flying my plane out to Colorado. On takeoff couldn't get the gear all the way up... stopped half way. Did the trouble shooting, manually extended it, landed and went to the high priced big shop on the field. Fortunately, the let me help. In the end, they misdiagnosed the issue saying it was a limit switch, which they didn't have. So, they temporarily wired around it so I could fly. I told them that their diagnosis didn't make sense and thought it was wrong, however, I was away from my home base. I could continue the trip (but with the limitation of having no back up switch that prevented the wheels from retracting on the ground if I accidentally tried to put the gear up). When I got home, I found a frayed wire causing the problem. Cost me $1K for the great work.


In boating, another big shop has some stupid mechanic that simply forces a screw into a oil resevoir drain hole, stripping the threads. Caught it and they paid BIG time to fix it.



Another time, some flunky mechanic was extracting a frozen bolt.... I told him to go slow, use plenty of penetrating oil and heat. He rushed and broke it off in the housing. Grrrrr!


I could tell you dozens more over the years.



Happens ALL the time, and that's a BIG reason to be involved on ones maintenance.
 
In a famous line from a movie "A man has got to know his limitations". the problem is you don't know what that is until you try.

First scary thing I did a number of years ago was to drill a 2" hole in the bottom of my sailboat to install an a knotmeter. The second scary thing I did was to cut away part of a major bulkhead because a chainplate had pulled, and replace the section. I had a "pro" look at both jobs after and his comment was the hull or chainplate support was stronger than the original.

Our new to us trawler (now 32 years old), when we purchased it we knew that something would break at some point. First was a cutless bearing replacement in a fiberglass shaft log. I have never seen a fibreglass shaft log. According to like boat owners - yup - that is the way they built them. Hired a pro - an old-time shipwright. worth the cost. He made a tool to allow a new, oversized set screw to hold the bearing. A skill set I do not have - nor the tools.

I have also come to realize that there are very few things that cannot be fixed. I just try not to make them worse. And yes you will make aa mistake.
I have had more than a few "do overs".

As said before in this chain, Read, Learn and Try.
 
DIY decisions

I’ve enjoyed reading this entire thread. It’s good to sit back and check in on philosophy before diving into the unknown.
There’s a certain attraction to doing a job first time, or cruising on unknown waters. People whose sense of caution advise against doing this, perhaps should avoid it. To me, either of these things are a welcome challenge. Well, sometimes a repair isn’t welcomed, but it might feel that way afterwards.
Coming to a point in a repair where are you can’t see your way to the end, where it looks clearly impossible, and you get past that for a successful fix - that is very satisfying.
I keep in mind the concept of the Fool Tax. It’s the cost of mistakes you will make because you are not an expert. Hopefully it’s a bloodied knuckle and not the cost of a new engine. If you keep the Fool Tax low, and benefit from your new knowledge of how to do an unfamiliar job, you’ve done well.
If the Fool Tax is consistently high, … well, you’ll figure that one out.
 
We all have limits, even the pro's. I bought my Trawler having never done any electrical or engine repairs. First thing I did was read, read, and read. I bought books (like Calders) from Amazon, and read the basics, which helped me enough to ask a reasonably intellegent question. The answers from "experts" often had to be vetted before I would accept that this was the way to go. Next, make friends. Boaters like to help other boaters (like on TF) and so you have resources when you reach out. I agree that there is a ton of info on YouTube, but make sure you don't take just one persons recommendation but keep comparing.

And....start with the simple first. For anything that could sink your boat or cause a fire, get help and be sure you watch how they do it. Be on site for the repair and ask questions..I would even take cell phone movies of how they repaired something.

Tinker with non-critical systems like your sinks, heads, lights, and just find out where and how they run. I got better with each attempt.

Heres another clue. I have a diesel generator which is a mini-me version of my main engines. So... instead of working on my mains, I started practicing on the generator, knowing it was less mission critical. I learned how to change the raw water impellers, heat exchangers, etc. and took photos during each step which served as a library I could go back to. But, if I messed up, I could get an 'expert' to fix it correctly without jeopardizing a bigger more critical system.

I have now done a lot of things that I never dreamed of when I bought the boat, but I lean on experienced other boaters for Q & A, and have never been turned down. I am now in a yacht club, and everyone has been so helpful. There is a smorgasbord of talent in a club and so many learning opportunities.

Just this week, I had something in my bilge that looked like transmission oil, but had no idea why. Picked up the phone, called a friend with years of commercial boating experience, and he diagnosed over the phone that the stopper plug on my Velvet Drive needs to be tightened by twisting the T-handle clockwise (which compresses the stopper plug). I never knew that ! So after checking the dipstick, the plug was too loose and was leaking under the pressure in the transmission (about 30 psi while running). Problem solved without a mechanic call. Just a 'friend' call.

One thing I have noticed about calling for a professional service call. Just the act of calling signals the professional that you don't have much knowledge/experience with the subject (or you would have just fixed it yourself !!). Thus, you are probably vulnerable to upgrading the recommendations into a major rebuild.

Example, one professional (well regarded) recommended I replace all the hoses on my sanitation system for a slight odor ("your hoses are old, penetrated and need to be replaced"). I asked another person who simply inquired when I last pumped my tanks and let me know that it was summer and, with the heat, bacterial growth is higher and odor is worse. I got rid of the odor by pumping out, putting in a deoderizer, and saved the cost of a rebuild. I could wax on about many more examples, but you get the point.

Ask, and ask, but also compare and contrast. Often there are simple solutions which you can safely try, and then work up step-wise to the more complex/risky.

When your read, you gain understanding. While I was once afraid to fool with my raw water intakes for fear of sinking the boat, I now work on them with impunity because I know how the stop cock works, how the raw water intakes work, and have cleaned them out and dismantled/re-assembled them myself. But the first time was the hardest, now no sweat.
 
But in most cases, tearing into something, if the procedure is well researched, that shouldn't happen and yes...when you get to that point...you call in the pros to finish up. As long as you haven't messed up too bad...the prep, ordering the parts and partial disassembly may save quite a bit from calling in a pro cold.



Just because one does DIY doesn't mean it isn't as good or even better than when a pro does it.

I try to pay pros for their expertise not just their time (or jobs I simply don't want to do).

Recent examples are: seized bolt extractions that would have junked my outboard if done incorrectly and I don't have the correct tools/oxy anyway and; out of position welding that would sink my steelie should it fail.

I'd agree that it can be surprising how helpful the pro's can be with info and methods if they are treated right. However, I don't know many who enjoy fixing others' fu@$ups. Expect attitudes and charges to match.
 
If they are real pros, I usually don't see attitude or over charges.


They get it and know that there are DIYers out there... so it depends on both the screwup on my part and how I relate to them when they are hired....I usually find they act accordingly.
 
My current list of projects is

-figuring out why the sump pump in the forward head decided to quit (self installed)
-replace the water pump on my starboard engine
-get my fuel gauge running again, it hasn't worked since the old gas was pumped out
-replace the float switch on my forward bilge pump
-replace the mid ship bilge pump all together
-eye splice the rode to the anchor and get the windlass up and running

Once these three are done we'll be ready for our first shakedown cruise.

Future projects are
-starting an NMEA 2000 network
-installing fuel flow (gph) sensors
-updating the VHF radio and antenna
-figuring out if I still need the old Raytheon radar, and removing it if I don't.
-Installing soft starts for the A/C's
-Installing a rudder indicator

We've been living aboard for 33 months now and still have yet to spend the night at anchor. God willing, we be able to before the end of July.

These two quotes from your post above seem to portend a rough time in learning pleasure boating/cruising. I advise extreme caution and a lot of reading as well as video watching on the net. As well... depending on your financial capability... don't be afraid to hire pros to get difficult and/or high safety level jobs done. Then, you can maybe schedule for time to silently observe as the pro accomplishes needs apparent.

Regarding fuel gauge: Never trust it completely - period. Straight stick method for gasoline and straight stick or fuel site tube for diesel don't lie... fuel gauges too often do lie. If your tank's filler hose is too kinked for a straight stick to be used feel free to PM me. I will outline a fool proof method for very accurately and easily reading fluid level in most fuel tanks aboard boats.

"get my fuel gauge running again, it hasn't worked since the old gas was pumped out"

"We've been living aboard for 33 months now and still have yet to spend the night at anchor. God willing, we be able to before the end of July."
 
Many years ago when we purchased our first boat with Yanmar diesels, I took the 2 day diesel course over at Mac Boring. Great course. You completely took the engine apart and put it back together on a bench. The funny comments shared with fellow students went something like this:

"I have no intention of actually ever doing this on my engines, but would like to know how".

I'll perform maintenance and some repairs of my 6LP's, but recognize my limitations. My method when I'm having a problem is to first go through things I know and can do. Still not working correctly, time for a mechanic.

Other systems, such as electronics and networks, I do myself. I'm learning gelcoat repair. Staying in the limits of my limitations.

Enjoy!
 
As an update, my fuel pump was delivered yesterday, and I was able to get it installed properly, without any extra parts left over, and the engine ran perfectly. It stayed much cooler, and at an even temperature much better than it had been previously.

After reviewing my engines manual so much over the weekend, I can now identify parts of the engine that I couldn't before, and I feel much more confident in the possibility of doing more maintenance on them in the future.

Today I tackle thru-hulls for the A/C's and a few other systems that need attention.
 
As an update, my fuel pump was delivered yesterday, and I was able to get it installed properly, without any extra parts left over, and the engine ran perfectly. It stayed much cooler, and at an even temperature much better than it had been previously.

After reviewing my engines manual so much over the weekend, I can now identify parts of the engine that I couldn't before, and I feel much more confident in the possibility of doing more maintenance on them in the future.

Today I tackle thru-hulls for the A/C's and a few other systems that need attention.


Perfect! The best way to figure out new stuff is when you're doing it on the "I need this fixed at some point" schedule, not the "this needs to work today" schedule. Then if you get part way in, need to stop, figure something out, ask someone for help, etc. and it takes a week to get it back together, it's no big deal.
 
Most of the time, when I farm work out, I'm disappointed. Some of the time, when I do it myself, I'm disappointed.


My current strategy is YouTube University plus studying whatever manuals I may have, then, if I have all the tools I need, plan the project and do it myself.



A big advantage of doing boat work myself is that I learn more about the systems and can deal with emergencies better.
 
Take LOTS of pictures so you know how to get it all back together.
No longer can I rely on my memory.

How did we ever get along without cell phone cameras? LOL
 
Take LOTS of pictures so you know how to get it all back together.
No longer can I rely on my memory.

How did we ever get along without cell phone cameras? LOL

The phone camera is also great for seeing stuff from an angle where your eyes don't fit. Shove the phone in, take a picture, then use that to figure out what you're feeling.
 
As Clint Eastwood said "A man has got to know his limitations"
 
As Clint Eastwood said "A man has got to know his limitations"

Every time I test my limits, a cop pulls me over and gives me a ticket.
:whistling: :angel:

I have developed a great dislike for traffic signal cameras. :mad:
 
The phone camera is also great for seeing stuff from an angle where your eyes don't fit. Shove the phone in, take a picture, then use that to figure out what you're feeling.


And boroscopes has become dirt cheap, take photos or movies and are valuable looking in places where the eye can't see. Have 3 or 4 of them and use them all the time. However, mostly looking at aviation cylinders, valves and pistons.
 
I just today got a $40 ticket for no seat belt. Riots and mayhem in the streets and cops are told to stand down, but let's be sure that everybody has their seat belt on!!! Maybe we need our seat belts for when we have to drive through the rioters. I can't wait to finish my boat and get off land.
 
I am giving serious consideration to installing a seat belt for the helmsman. Everyone else can hang on or lay on the floor. LOL
 
I just today got a $40 ticket for no seat belt.

Red light camera tickets here are $100. You can get 2 seatbelt tickets and still have enough left over to buy a couple of Happy Meal at Mickey D's. :rofl:
 
I have yet to find the limit for when to call in a professional. I did do it once (replaced standing rigging) but only because of my time constraints.

So far I've managed to all regular maintenance as well as replacing the following gear:
engine, gearbox, prop, fuel tanks, holding tank, windlass, batteries, 95% of 12 volt wiring, plotter, bilge pumps, water pumps, hot water heater, fridge, re-cored the fore deck, various carpentry & fibreglass projects such as replacing bimini with home built hardtop.

I like doing the work, and I like learning about my boat. Why would I pay someone else to do it.
 
I just today got a $40 ticket for no seat belt. Riots and mayhem in the streets and cops are told to stand down, but let's be sure that everybody has their seat belt on!!! Maybe we need our seat belts for when we have to drive through the rioters. I can't wait to finish my boat and get off land.

Just stay away from the Capitol?
 
Many good comments here. Bottom line is confidence and how you approach the problem. I feel that if it is a simple item that needs replacement I am qualified. I carry spare bilge pumps, macerator and water pump and soare starter and alternator. I know they will fail at times when I am away from a replacement. Now something like a diesel injector pump I have that done by a professional. And here is the key. Find a good mechanic, not just someone who calls himself a mechanic. I have had to redo a lot of work done by "mechanics" in Mexico.

Buy all the best tools. You will need them and consider their cost as a bargain compared to hired labor.
 
Greetings,
Yep. If it's broken the only thing you might do is make it more broken. True words. You might as well take a stab at it before calling in an "expert" (hahaha...expert).

Most of my career was spent fixing things (not boats, electronics). Far too many times I was called on to fix something that the owner had already attempted to fix. The problem here is, I had to figure out what the owner had done and correct that before I could begin working on the original problem. And many times, the owner was less than honest in telling me what he had done.

I recall a co-worker being handed a piece of equipment as a box of loose parts that someone had attempted to fix.

When I was young, and for my entire career, there was no youtube to watch, my knowledge came from theory that I had learned and from books. Yes, we used to get our information from books.

So how does one know one's limits? First of all, if you don't understand how it works, it's probably past your limits. If it's something critical and expensive (like your engine) and you don't have the experience, it's probably past your limits.

If it's something you can see and understand (like a broken wire or a hose that needs to be replaced), this is something that you may be able to tackle. I would expect a lot of boaters to be able to change engine oil and filters. Replacing a potable water pump or something similar is a matter of putting the replacement in the same way the old one was mounted and connected.

If you want to learn, that's fine, just make sure you aren't jeopardizing your safety or your boat's operation.

Going back to my experiences during my career, some people just don't have the ability to figure out or work on mechanical things, much like some people have no musical or artistic talent. It's nothing to be ashamed of.
 
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Worked in /around the boating industry for 20 years..thinking that people who get paid and the people who manage them are trained professionals is a ticket to disappointment.

My first job after retirement from the USCG was working for what became one of the largest marine electronics firms in South Jersey...and area known for boating and boat building. With no background or experience, by year 3 I was the guy who got sent out to fix the problems the other installers screwed up.

Sometimes it's work ethic, desire to learn, and the ability to think through an issue that is enough to get the job done. Maybe not quickly, but done within the needs of safety, etc.

You never really know your limits till you start trying....and see what you learn along the way.

Me, I avoid fiine carpentry and some hydraulics...not enough patience I think.
 
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