Importance of equal length battery cables

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Here is an article on battery interconnections that I saved a while back. Not sure if it is the same one that a couple of posts above mentioned was from an unlikely source?

SmartGauge Electronics - Interconnecting multiple batteries to form one larger bank

It isn't explained in huge detail in that article, but it does appear to be correct. The middle batteries get starved a bit because the positive link on one side and the negative link on the other carry more current. It is made worse by increasing the distance between one of the parallel battery sets because of the unbalanced current in those leads even though the lead resistance is balanced. The only one that works for N batteries is the common busbar version.

Now, if you could just cool the leads to -273K. Maybe using the liquid hydrogen from the other thread.

Here's my same cartoon, with the unbalanced currents shown. Differences are greatly exaggerated due to the choice of unit currents and resistances, but illustrate the problem. Battery one has 7V, battery two 6V, and battery three 8V.

Battery.jpg
 
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Very similar. I extracted a graphic showing the batteries daisy-chained so positive and negative are at opposite ends of the paralleled batteries. Note the difference in amp-load between the four batteries - two at ends are just under 27-amps and two inside ones are just over 23-amps. Pretty sizeable difference. He shows two balanced configurations, including the hub/spoke to a bus bar.

Thanks for this -

Peter
View attachment 136873


That's the article I was thinking about. Thank you for finding it.
 
Right. The problems I have is that none of these articles or discussions have ever measured a difference in the real world, and they all assume, with no empirical basis, that these low resistances are really low and the only ones that matter.

Want to know what would convince me? Measuring a real world difference.

Use a real world installation with bilge pump take-offs, gauge take-offs, crimped connections, components that have been in a boat for a while.

Charge all the batteries in parallel with equal length wires. Measure state of charge. Discharge them with equal length wires. Measure state of charge twice, difference. Once after a settling time and very, very brief discharge to get a good initial measurement, and one after the high draw load had time to take capacity down to about half. Repeat a few times to establish normal variation.

Repeat the experiment doing the same thing charging and discharging with the "same sided" arrangement. Quantify the difference that has been made. Compare it to other measured variations.

Science isn't just about producing hypotheses and building models with them. It is about producing hypotheses, building models with them, using those models to make predictions, and then testing those predictions.

We /know/ that this makes a difference in a perfect world. But does it make a difference in the real world? No one, to my knowledge, has ever shown that it has. Not by measuring charge or discharge disparities, not by measuring temperature disparities, nit by measuring water leve disparities, not by measuring lifetime disparities.

If one is redoing one's system, of course it makes sense to do this. There is no harm and only good can come from it.

But if one has a setup that is working fine and there is no observed problem, adjusting this wouldn't be high up on my to-do list.

If one has a problem one wants to solve, e.g. not enough house capacity, and the only thing preventing a solution is a slight variation in wire length, I'd recommend solving the problem. After decades of folks wiring batteries the "wrong way" I don't think folks have observed a massively high rate of premature death. No doubt there could have been some impact that went unnoticed given that we observe batteries as a whole system and they impact each other. But plenty of people have bade their boats better fit their needs by adding batteries with different lengths of wire at most modest penalties in battery life.

And, again, some mitigation is possible, such as using higher gauge wires, etc.

This also probably matters a lot more to those stacking tons of pairs of smaller batteries vs those stacking a couple of 8D batteries.

From the peanut gallery...
 
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This is why I love Trawler Forum. I really appreciate the thoughtful and knowledgeable responses. I'm going to study all the information, until I understand most of it. Here is what I now believe:
Adding a remote battery to my house bank will not create a dangerous or unworkable situation.
Heavy cable and the correct configuration will minimize charging and discharging differences.
Any potential reduction in battery life is unlikely to occur during the time I own the boat.
I'll keep watching in case someone posts that they have done exactly what I am proposing, and can report on the result after a few years of use.
 
This is why I love Trawler Forum. I really appreciate the thoughtful and knowledgeable responses. I'm going to study all the information, until I understand most of it. Here is what I now believe:
Adding a remote battery to my house bank will not create a dangerous or unworkable situation.
Heavy cable and the correct configuration will minimize charging and discharging differences.
Any potential reduction in battery life is unlikely to occur during the time I own the boat.
I'll keep watching in case someone posts that they have done exactly what I am proposing, and can report on the result after a few years of use.


Your choice of course, but it's against what both the theory says and what manufacturers call for.


And regarding "real world" operation, I have a dual BMS system, each controlling 3 parallel batteries. This gives a total of 6 batteries in parallel. Over the past year the SOC of one BMS+3 batteries drifted nearly 10 percentage points compared to the other BMS+3 batteries. All are star-wired, equal length cables.


Jim Cave reported other real-world experience here https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1157232&postcount=24 where he found some pretty significant current imbalance in his new bank due to cabling differences.
 
Your choice of course, but it's against what both the theory says and what manufacturers call for.


And regarding "real world" operation, I have a dual BMS system, each controlling 3 parallel batteries. This gives a total of 6 batteries in parallel. Over the past year the SOC of one BMS+3 batteries drifted nearly 10 percentage points compared to the other BMS+3 batteries. All are star-wired, equal length cables.


Jim Cave reported other real-world experience here https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1157232&postcount=24 where he found some pretty significant current imbalance in his new bank due to cabling differences.

Even with a perfectly designed system things are not perfect.
 
I can certainly believe a clear 10% delta in a new install. The question of how big a deal that is is one for the owner. But it isn't a huge number in my mind, and perspective is important, too.

How big that looks, relatively speaking, 3 or 5 years down the road when nothing is new any more and there are other resistances that have grown and generated imbalances, is another data point.

These battery systems are always so perfect when newly installed. After a few years of moisture, salt, temperature, and off gassing, we've all seen the results. We've all seen a little cruft make more than a 10% difference. We all try to keep things clean and well maintained. But I suspect most of us have systems that show some age, too.

I'm not arguing that balancing everything isn't best. It is. I just don't think I'd let it stop me from doing something that enabled me to enjoy the boat more. Efficiency is one of many goals.
 
I guess I'm confused. Cabling and such is a one-time cost. Even if the the empiracal data is a bit elusive, why not maximize chance of success and keep cable length the same; possibly using bus-bar/power-post to make a hub/spoke config.

Peter
 
Peter,

I'm not in this situation myself, so I can't say. But, I have been in boats where running the cabling is really hard to do.
 
For the OP, he hasn't said what the specific battery installation is. If he now has one bank, and wants to add a second, then the diagonal wiring scheme I referred to is technically perfect and practically as good as it gets regardless of how far apart they are. If he already has two banks and is adding a third, then the unbalanced current scenario happens. Not with just two banks.

if you wire them to a bus with equal length cables and still get unbalanced charging, then the only solution is an active balancer between parallel batteries.

These are the reasons I say that with LFP you have to be willing to have your batteries become your hobby. With properly set up AGMs, install and forget for their life.
 
I guess I'm confused. Cabling and such is a one-time cost. Even if the the empiracal data is a bit elusive, why not maximize chance of success and keep cable length the same; possibly using bus-bar/power-post to make a hub/spoke config.

Peter

Absolutely. I always calculate what size wire or cable I need in a particular installation and then go at least one size larger. Small one time cost and then you get the benefits forever of better voltage. Especially when you are doing a battery installation, why not go the best way possible. Then as the batteries degrade at least you have done everything you can to get the best out of them. In the long run what does the minor cost of larger cables or running them in the best configuration matter?
 
Absolutely. I always calculate what size wire or cable I need in a particular installation and then go at least one size larger. Small one time cost and then you get the benefits forever of better voltage. Especially when you are doing a battery installation, why not go the best way possible. Then as the batteries degrade at least you have done everything you can to get the best out of them. In the long run what does the minor cost of larger cables or running them in the best configuration matter?
I'm with Dave on this ongoing debate.
I'm no EE but understand the miniscule resistance argument. I also see several commercial entities specializing in batty monitoring and/ solar systems that promote balancing.
I just figure the time & cost to just follow best practice is small potatoes. Those poo-pooing the need / benefit spend more time & effort defending "it doesn't matter" than just doing it right.
Me - I look for every opportunity to follow a best practice, especially when making mods.
I would bet that those in the no need category would try to minimize cable run lengths when by their calcs here it would seem insignificant???
 
Even with a perfectly designed system things are not perfect.


I just redid all the battery cables to shorten them up a bunch. They yard had wired via a very long route. This time I cleaned all the connections before assembly - something I doubt the yard does. It will be interesting to see if things improve.
 
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If you are going to rework the system why not do it as best as possible???
 
I just redid all the battery cables to shorten them up a bunch. They yard had wired via a very long route. This time I cleaned all the connections before assembly - something I doubt the yard does. It will be interesting to see if things improve.

A lot of people will use no-ox on the connectors when assembling, but that is actually an incorrect practice. cleaning them like you did as much better because if you actually use an ohmmeter in a can of no-ox, it has an infinite resistance
 
If you are going to rework the system why not do it as best as possible???


The original poster in this thread just wants to add a simple battery to his house bank.
 
The original poster in this thread just wants to add a simple battery to his house bank.
We can make simple complex!:) A colleague had a motto on his letterhead "Every knot was once a straight piece of string"
 
So why not make it the best you can within reason.

The problem the OP faces is that he has a house bank, presumably with each cell right next to each other and he wants to add another parallel cell or cells which need to be at a different location.

To get all the wires the same length is a ton of work.

To parallel in another battery is easy
 
I am no expert in this, but just a thought.

Setup the two sets/banks balanced in a star configuration. So each set is balanced to there own batteries. Now setup a buss bar as close as you can to a halfway point between the two banks. Use the same size wire and length between each buss bar to the half way buss bar.

Now each battery is balanced in each bank and the 2 banks between them selves. YES? Or am I missing something? Of course of banks are 30 feet apart. This may not work. I am thinking in the 5 to 10 range.

Another thought too. If the midway point buss bar can not to mounted half way. Just mount as close to the way mark as possible, but have the cables the same length so electrically it is the half way point.
 
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I am not sorry that I lit the fuse to this discussion.
Ksanders is correct. I want to add one battery about 5 feet away from a set of 4 batteries that are wired in parallel and are located in a closely spaced "block". Until this discussion I have not seen any discussion of this remote battery issue. This project will be the last part of an electrical overhaul on an Albin 27. The boat has a 6.5 kw generator, 2,000 watt inverter charger, central air, hot water heater, induction cooktop and a microwave. I am 90 percent done installing a completely new 120 volt system. I am close to purchasing a completely new set of batteries and installing all the necessary cables and charging control equipment. A previous Trawler Forum discussion helped me finalize the design of the new system which will use Li batteries. It was all worked out and ready to start buying stuff........Then I measured the last free space and got this idea about one more battery. I will make a decision in a few weeks. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but this discussion has really helped me thing it through.
 
I am not sorry that I lit the fuse to this discussion.
Ksanders is correct. I want to add one battery about 5 feet away from a set of 4 batteries that are wired in parallel and are located in a closely spaced "block". Until this discussion I have not seen any discussion of this remote battery issue. This project will be the last part of an electrical overhaul on an Albin 27. The boat has a 6.5 kw generator, 2,000 watt inverter charger, central air, hot water heater, induction cooktop and a microwave. I am 90 percent done installing a completely new 120 volt system. I am close to purchasing a completely new set of batteries and installing all the necessary cables and charging control equipment. A previous Trawler Forum discussion helped me finalize the design of the new system which will use Li batteries. It was all worked out and ready to start buying stuff........Then I measured the last free space and got this idea about one more battery. I will make a decision in a few weeks. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, but this discussion has really helped me thing it through.



This is where “being a boat” get in the way of what you would ideally do. When the realities of you boat get factored in, I’ll agree with Ksaunders, that you do what you need to do to get the best you can. Then go boating.
 
Assuming your cables are well made there is probably as much variation in each battery’s internal resistance as your cables.

The good news is that it is compensated and controlled at each battery via a bms that you can monitor for each battery independently. It will allow you to actually see what is going on until you figure out your own best practices for charging and discharging this battery bank.

I suggest adding an an isolator switch for this more distant bank so you can see what is happening before going crazy with cable lengths and such. You may want to add another charger for the bank which would also provide another charging source.

I started monitoring each of my agm banks independent of the house shunt and learned quite a bit about how each battery responds to charges and discharges and parasitic loads.
 
Not cheap - but these 600A bus bars are decent. There are cheap knock-offs, but for electrical, I stick with Blue Sea Systems.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/2104/PowerBar_600A_BusBar_-_Four_3_8in-16_Studs

Peter

These are the same brand and series bus bars we used, except we used 6 lug bars. I cried when I bought them! We wired in a total of 12 each, 100ah LiFePO4 batteries. Wired in 4 "pods" of 3 batteries each. 12v battery bank. Total wire lengths for each "pod" were the same, wired to the 6 terminal bus, then one wire from there to bus in engine room. All the wiring was new Ancor 4/0 tinned wiring. Now I need to do the same for my new Start Battery bank. . . . It's always something:whistling:

REO, One item not addressed in your posts, or in the discussion, is the age of the batteries. Not sure about the batteries you put in, but when asked, Battleborn stated that ideally all the batteries on a bank should of the same age, but in any case, no more than 1 year difference in the ages of the individual batteries. I added two batteries that were 8 months newer than the originals, but all were put into service at the same time.

Best of luck in whatever you decide!
 
There is a correct way to do it, and if done that way the batteries will be fine.

Parallel the batteries, but take the positive cable to the load from one end of the parallel chain, and the negative from the other end. This makes certain that any current in and out has to go through all of the parallel connections and cable drops, so that every battery is treated equally. Plenty of diagrams online for how to do this, if that explanation wasn't clear.

A diagram depicting pulling positive and negative from opposite sides of the bank is shown in this article. https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Large-BatteryBanks-II.pdf

If the batteries are not adjacent to each other, you would need over current protection at each end of the connecting positive cable, if you want to be ABYC compliant, and safe. Details here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/...er-Current-Protection-16_19_ON250_pow_voy.pdf
 
Would it be feasible to measure the resistance of the positive cable with the fuse attached and then adjust the length of the negative cable to match?

Bruce
 
Would it be feasible to measure the resistance of the positive cable with the fuse attached and then adjust the length of the negative cable to match?

Bruce

Personal, I would not bother. Just keep the cables the same size and length. The affect the fuse will have would be so little its not worth mentioning.

What you could do. If the Neg cables are 3'. On the Pos side, you use a in-line fuse block so now you need a short jumper from the fuse block to the battery. Say that jumper is 6" long. Now use a 30'" cable. Now both Neg and Pos have 36 inches of cables in total.

Keep in mind that you are just going from the battery to the buss bar if using a star configuration. Which is the best.

From Steve's link, the diagram depicting pulling positive and negative from opposite sides of the bank is ok. But the middle batteries be taking up less of the load. The two end batteries will work harder.

The link does into this https://www.windynation.com/jzv/inf/how-configure-battery-bank
 
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