In defense of SD trawlers

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JT, I think there is a wider range in SD hull designs than any other (FD or planning) form - there seem to be an almost infinite number of variations, with a resulting wide variation in the performance of the "SD" boat as a result. From "lobster boats", to penetrating hulls, to the Mediterranean Llaut design, to Lynn Senour's take on it, there seem to be a lot of ways to get to "SD" performance. The resulting boats also run the gamut from being near-FD, to near-FP (full planning), to splitting the difference. There are so many factors, the wetted area, the form presented to oncoming waves, center of gravity, it seems as much art as it is science.


With the American Tug (I've owned two, a 34 and current 39), we find that the hull form provides tremendous resistance to rolling - at SD speeds. We've been out in 6-8 ft seas (the worst we've been out in were 10 ft swells) on multiple occasions, and at 10-13 kts, the ride is like a train on rails. It just doesn't roll, or pound, at all.


Though, at higher speeds (14+ kts) in those same conditions, there is more both rolling, and a sense of impact (not pounding, but on the spectrum towards it) in short, steep chop. As speed increases on the Lynn Senour design, more of the hull raises out of the water, and it takes on some of the characteristics of a FP design. At FD speeds in those conditions there is no pounding, but there is rolling, as the hull form doesn't generate enough lateral stability at pure FD speed. For this hull, we've found the best sea-keeping abilities to be in the 10-13 kt "SD" range. The performance of a different "SD" design would likewise differ (as apparently did yours).


Conrad, it's not surprising that our experiences are very similar. Both the Nordic and American Tug hulls were designed by Lynn Senour. I suspect our hulls are extremely similar both below and above the waterline.


For us, having been working full-time until recently, the option for higher speed was necessary if we wanted to actually get someplace out of sight of our home marina in the limited time of a weekend....
 
You can give accounts of time after time the SD types going to sea w good results.

But the seaworthyness, safety, range and lower fuel burn of a good FD hull is clearly supperior by a significant margin.

Also the higher speeds, greater space and better stability under many conditions not to exclude while tied to a float are very clear advantages of the SD type.

It should be easy to decide what's best for you. One's best for some and the other is best for most. Don't see any grounds for any kind of debate.
 
Your not raining on my parade

I don't want to rain on your parade regarding SD and blue water use,but I think you might have to modify your opinion if you followed the world hopping( including northwest passage) of SD boats like the Flemings twin engines to boot. I think if you take a harder look you will find enough SD boats that do blue water both distance and comfort and safety wise. They may not be the best platform for live aboard pack rat types but they certainly carry what they need fuel-water-water maker-stabilization-refrigeration-food freezers etc etc....
I believe those Flemming's were 65', one belonging To Tony Flemming. Maybe a SD however the 78 has a bulbous bow. I don't know of any SD's doing the Northwest Passage. The Northwest passage was done in a Hobie 18 however. I know Captain Rains delivered a 52' Grand Banks to Hawaii from Cabo San Lucas , added bladders and boarded up the windows. Said it was one of the worst trips of his life. Leshman took a 40' Nordhavn around the world, Can you think of any 40' SD'S you'd do that in. People do all kinds of things in boats, doesn't mean they have the best tool in the box.
 
I don't see the need to apologize having an SD hull. SDs are the vast majority of cruising MVs, so they must work for their owners. Regardless, I'm used to being a minority as in having a 6-knot FD boat. Works for me.
 
Scary if we try to apply what is the best form for long distance blue water particularly in the sub 50 foot size I would agree that it is a FD boat. But I would not put forth a motor boat at all. Sail would be the answer overwhelmingly so. What I am pointing out is that SD can do it. Same as motor boats can do it. But probably a much larger group of blue water cruisers are in sail boats. You think its a FD power boat they think its a sail boat and personally I don't ever want to do blue water in any boat, but that's part of what makes life interesting.
 
Like any SD design, it certainly doesn't have the range or capacities for blue-water ocean crossing. But, as much as I might dream and fantasize about it, that's just not going to happen in our lives, and the compromises of SD have been perfect for our coastal use.

Fully agree, there is no perfect boat/anchor etc that fits everyone. The overwhelming majority of boaters do not make open water passages which is where the full displacement boats shine. When we were based in Lake Michigan I saw few full displacement power boats and now in the Eastern Caribbean I see even fewer semi-displacement power boats. Basically boaters select their boats with some idea of the use they have in mind.
 
Size matters...once large enough...the hull design is less critical I believe.

Didn't RickB post not only links to several good articles on on the subject but also rattled off a bunch of larger yachts that were semi displacement that traveled the world?
 
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Fully agree, there is no perfect boat/anchor etc that fits everyone. The overwhelming majority of boaters do not make open water passages which is where the full displacement boats shine. When we were based in Lake Michigan I saw few full displacement power boats and now in the Eastern Caribbean I see even fewer semi-displacement power boats. Basically boaters select their boats with some idea of the use they have in mind.

As far as I noticed, we are the only FD boat at our marina off Lake Michigan. The few others I have seen were loopers stopping off in Manistee. To a certain extent, people choose SD boats because that is what have been built. To retirees like us, FD is fine but if I were a working stiff limited to weekends and an occasional vacation, I would certainly want a much faster boat like a SeaRay or Regal. If you can work from home and do it on a boat, that is a real game changer and either FD or SD will do.
 
Can't argue with that

Scary if we try to apply what is the best form for long distance blue water particularly in the sub 50 foot size I would agree that it is a FD boat. But I would not put forth a motor boat at all. Sail would be the answer overwhelmingly so. What I am pointing out is that SD can do it. Same as motor boats can do it. But probably a much larger group of blue water cruisers are in sail boats. You think its a FD power boat they think its a sail boat and personally I don't ever want to do blue water in any boat, but that's part of what makes life interesting.
Cruising sail boats might be the ultimate hybrid.
 
As far as I noticed, we are the only FD boat at our marina off Lake Michigan.

I was cruising Yachtworld and noticed a Fu Hwa 38 double cabin with a listed maximum speed of 14 mph....semi-displacement territory. Did they make a variety of hull designs? Just curious...
 
Scary if we try to apply what is the best form for long distance blue water particularly in the sub 50 foot size I would agree that it is a FD boat. But I would not put forth a motor boat at all. Sail would be the answer overwhelmingly so. What I am pointing out is that SD can do it. Same as motor boats can do it. But probably a much larger group of blue water cruisers are in sail boats. You think its a FD power boat they think its a sail boat and personally I don't ever want to do blue water in any boat, but that's part of what makes life interesting.

Eye,
And sailboats are FD boats all w stabilizers as in masts and sails.
 
I was cruising Yachtworld and noticed a Fu Hwa 38 double cabin with a listed maximum speed of 14 mph....semi-displacement territory. Did they make a variety of hull designs? Just curious...

That is a twin turbo engine boat and they are talking MPH and not knots. Our boat is a single and I suspect 9 or 10 knots is max. We normally cruise at 7 knots and 1650 RPMs on our naturally aspirated 135Hp Perkins 6-354. Fu Hwa did make a number of different models but I believe they all used the same FD hull for the 38'. The claim of 14MPH seems questionable to me too.
 
Didn't RickB post not only links to several good articles on on the subject but also rattled off a bunch of larger yachts that were semi displacement that traveled the world?

Yup, most are in fact.
 
Do you have a photo of your hull below the water line?

Thought I had one with the survey but it doesn't really show the hull below the waterline very well as it is the whole boat on the lift. From the picture the hull looks just like the one that claims 14MPH on YW. Our boat is like the one at Myrtle Beach.

Kind of gets me wondering at what point there is demarcation between FD and SD?
 
IMO it doesn't matter what so and so drove to Antarctica if your cruising will be coastal.


People seem to get all caught up in the nuances of boat design that they will never use.
 
Do you have a photo of your hull below the water line?

Sounds like the old Albin lineup.....which Albin describes as SD...but my wake becomes pretty obnoxious over about 7.5 knots and my boats belly is pretty rounded for an efficient SD.

I have no problem calling her an "inefficient FD" too....:D
 
Is this hull "FD"?

ImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1419960775.517646.jpgImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1419960796.099952.jpgImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1419960815.535270.jpg
 
Lots of tred on the water. Naval architects can get sticky about something they call the buttock angle(I think). It has to do with the way the water flows by the submerged stern. You would have to submit good side and aft pictures of rear of boat and maybe some angle measurements for a verdict. Having a keel and deep forefoot may not exclude SD lobster boats have those things.
 
It is a sailboat hull so it is FD.

Just because it is a sailboat hull doesn't make it FD...plenty of sailboat hulls plane.

Hard to see in those pics...I would dare to make that snap judgement.


A shot from directly astern would help, even then I detest making the call from just pictures......
 
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It has an extended swim platform that flattens out the stern quite a bit. Kind of hard to see in my pictures.
 
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ImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1419963326.837724.jpgImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1419963358.556295.jpgImageUploadedByTrawler Forum1419963374.757673.jpg

Found some better pics.

Also just realized, looking at these pics, that the set of used weaver davits I bought off Craigalist might not work with my swim platform. I didn't realize it had that reverse rake on it.
 
Naval architects can get sticky about something they call the buttock angle(I think). It has to do with the way the water flows by the submerged stern. You would have to submit good side and aft pictures of rear of boat and maybe some angle measurements for a verdict. Having a keel and deep forefoot may not exclude SD lobster boats have those things.

Just one feature(buttock angle) won't do it. Yes, as a very wide generalization buttock angle (rise) might be flatter on a semi-displacement hull than on a full displacement hull. But, I am a Naval Architect and I rarely look at buttock angle. I first look at prismatic coefficient, I look at displacement/length ratio, I look at intended operating speed(more precisely speed/length ratio), longitudinal weight distribution, HP to weight, and finally volume distribution (sort of back to CP).

I'm sure I've posted this before but for the record. Naval Architects define hull type; planing, displacement, or semi-displacement, by operating speed/length. We use something called a Froude number.

Fn = V/ sqrt Lg

V is the vessel speed (metres/second)
L is submerged length (metres)
g is acceleration due to gravity (9.8 m/s^2)

Displacement hulls operate at Fn less than 0.4
Planing hulls operate at Fn > 1.0-1.2
Semi-displacement vessels operate at Fn between about 0.4-0.5 and 1.0-1.2

To convert knots to m/s multiply by 1.9425

So a 30' waterline boat traveling at 7 knots is operating at Fn = 0.45

A 35' waterline at 14 knots is Fn = 27.195 / (sqrt 10.66 * 96.04)
= 27.195 / 31.99
= 0.84
 
I'm the one that posted the buttock line ""angle" definition. Using the word definition rather loosely.

If one wants to think of a very easy cutoff point so you can glance at a boat and make the call (for all practical purposes) just observing how much transom of a typical boat is below the WL is enough. But it's not definite. Fronde numbers, quarter beam buttock line numbers ect ect will get you a little closer to black and white but it's quite safe to say all boats w the transom above the WL are FD.

But from experience I know 999% of TF skippers aren't interested in specifics so I offer the WL and transom method for impure simplicity.

From the pic that cardude01 posted I'd call that boat to be w a FD hull. There is a small bit of the transom below the WL but comparing the size of the hull to the submerged transom it's fly stuff. Not worth considering. But if that much transom was submerged on a 16' aluminum skiff it would classify it as SD and if the skiff was really really light a planing hull.
 
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Just one feature(buttock angle) won't do it. Yes, as a very wide generalization buttock angle (rise) might be flatter on a semi-displacement hull than on a full displacement hull. But, I am a Naval Architect and I rarely look at buttock angle. I first look at prismatic coefficient, I look at displacement/length ratio, I look at intended operating speed(more precisely speed/length ratio), longitudinal weight distribution, HP to weight, and finally volume distribution (sort of back to CP).

I'm sure I've posted this before but for the record. Naval Architects define hull type; planing, displacement, or semi-displacement, by operating speed/length. We use something called a Froude number.

Fn = V/ sqrt Lg

V is the vessel speed (metres/second)
L is submerged length (metres)
g is acceleration due to gravity (9.8 m/s^2)

Displacement hulls operate at Fn less than 0.4
Planing hulls operate at Fn > 1.0-1.2
Semi-displacement vessels operate at Fn between about 0.4-0.5 and 1.0-1.2

To convert knots to m/s multiply by 1.9425

So a 30' waterline boat traveling at 7 knots is operating at Fn = 0.45

A 35' waterline at 14 knots is Fn = 27.195 / (sqrt 10.66 * 96.04)
= 27.195 / 31.99
= 0.84

Thank you for a reasonable explanation...

For years some of us have been trying to poo poo the one pic is worth a thousand NAs.... philosophy......it just doesn't seem to take root though...
 

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