Insurance Update

[N4061]

For those starting out on their first trawler search you may want to talk with a couple of insurance brokers before you place your deposit on the new boat. Over the past few years obtaining insurance has become a little more difficult and if your boating experience is limited you may be required to hire a captain and spend time proving your skills prior to he/she providing validation for the insurance company. If you are an experienced trawler owner increasing boat size 10' is not much of an issue but anything greater can result in a little more work. Just something I recently discovered.

John T.

 

[Comodave]

Yes, I always advise people to make sure they can get insurance. I have Geico through Boat/US. They said we could go up 15’ without any problems.

 

[magna 6882]

I read a post a while back regarding a couple who jumped from kayaks to a trawler but was hesitant to ask what they found for insurance.

 

[GraniteStater]

I'm looking at jumping from 20something foot lake boats to a 50ish foot Kadey Krogen. I figured my biggest hurdle (besides the price!) would be insurance. I've had several conversations about it though and it seems like I won't have a problem getting insurance but I will be required to have a training captain. They said on average its about 3 or 4 days with the captain. Its not cheap but regardless of insurance requirements I think its a good investment.

 

[firehoser75]

Good advice. Now a days, also confirm the availability of moorage before buying!!!!

 

[Pau Hana]

It's much more than just a quick check ride.

With the amount of new boaters out there, and the huge jump in claims over the past year as a result of said new boaters relying on ego ("I can do this") vs experience- and you have a recipe for a tightening of the insurance appetites.

So, there are insurers with will offer coverage to new boaters/boaters with large jumps in size, but not like they would just 5 years ago,

Underwriting takes into account ((in addition to the usual underwriting criteria):

• Owner experience
• Navigation area
• Vessel age
• Vessel size increase

Some I've insured had had requirements of a full time skipper for the first policy term.

 

[psneeld]

It's much more than just a quick check ride.

With the amount of new boaters out there, and the huge jump in claims over the past year as a result of said new boaters relying on ego ("I can do this") vs experience- and you have a recipe for a tightening of the insurance appetites.

So, there are insurers with will offer coverage to new boaters/boaters with large jumps in size, but not like they would just 5 years ago,

Underwriting takes into account ((in addition to the usual underwriting criteria):

• Owner experience
• Navigation area
• Vessel age
• Vessel size increase

Some I've insured had had requirements of a full time skipper for the first policy term.

Peter...what I find curious is there is definitely a niche of boaters who have older boats that are probably better and safer than they were 10 years prior. To help prove it, they may have zero claims for those 10 years and lot's of use.


Is there any way this info gets back to those who make the decisions that include just the age of the boat and not that it is actually better?


Or is it something we all should make sure any recent surveys include all those "upgrades" if we can get the surveyor to include them?

 

[Tango46]

We recently got a quote thru NBOA for a potential new purchase, a Novatec 47. The insurance company actually providing the quote was American Modern Insurance Group. Anybody here have any experience or insights with them?



The price they quoted was very nice, but I've found 'lots' of negative posts around the internet for AMIG's "performance" (or lack thereof shall we say) regarding homeowner's insurance - but no posts regarding performance on marine insurance.



Does anyone here have any experience with this company you'd be willing to share? Thanks

 

[Pau Hana]

We recently got a quote thru NBOA for a potential new purchase, a Novatec 47. The insurance company actually providing the quote was American Modern Insurance Group. Anybody here have any experience or insights with them?



The price they quoted was very nice, but I've found 'lots' of negative posts around the internet for AMIG's "performance" (or lack thereof shall we say) regarding homeowner's insurance - but no posts regarding performance on marine insurance.



Does anyone here have any experience with this company you'd be willing to share? Thanks

Yessir. Here's a writeup i did last year re American Modern and their policy coverage:

Thanks for taking a few moments to chat with me. I‘ve attached the American Modern policy for your review. Further to our conversation regarding American Modern’s policy, I’ve highlighted some areas where the attached policy is appearing to play circular logic with coverages:

• Page 2- Definitions, under “Accident”-
o This defines what an "accident" is, and specifically points out what is and is not covered. Accidents must be of an external cause of loss per this wording to have coverage.
o "a" specifically excludes damages that are the results of ordinary wind, weather, and wave actions. So, if your vessel is at home on the trailer and floods because of rain, or a tree falls on it due to winds, you have no coverage. Same if your vessel is dockside in a marina, and winds and waves cause damage due to rubbing on a dock or pier- no coverage.
• Page 3- Definition, under “Occurrence”
o This describes the definition of what an considered an occurrence under the insuring agreement, Page 6, Section III A, Hull and Equipment Coverage. Since the word "accident" is in bold, you must go to that definition to determine what is covered.
• Page 6- Section III, Hull and Aux equipment Coverage, subpara A:
o This is the hull insuring section. Any word in bold means it is specifically defined in the policy definition for this policy. Since the word "Occurrence" is in bold, you must go to the Definitions to see what is meant by "occurrence".

In any marine policy, the coverages are dictated by how the policy defines them. In this case, the specificity of what is defined as an accident makes the policy weigh heavily in favor of the insuring company, and not the policy holder. Further, (and this is the circular logic part) the policy reads backwards- you to page 6 (the hull insurance section) to see if you have coverage- you then have to go to the Definitions to find out what “occurrence” means- you then have to go to “accident” to see what that definition is.

 

[Tango46]

Thanks heaps Pete! We will definitely contact you for more/better options.

 

[Leatherneck]

Pete,
Thanks for all your help and expertise meeting our insurance needs.

 

[mhaugh1144]

I use Chubb on my 1984 38 twin lehman Present

 

[FatBear]

Insurance & training

I just got a quote from USAA's partner, Markel Specialty, on a 42' Kadey-Krogen: $1560.

I have extensive and lifelong experience in power, sail, and human-powered boats under 30' and crew/mechanical on tugs and schooners over 100 feet, but nothing in-between. So they are requiring me to get a training captain for 20 hours.

It's interesting reading that this is becoming the norm. I'd never heard of it. I also have a pilot's license and it is common practice to get an instructor to check you out in a new type of plane. So I had actually offered to do this with the boat - it just seems smart. I was expecting maybe 4 hours, so questioned them on 20 hours. They said it's a lot more than just docking and maneuvering. There are all the boat's systems to learn and so on. I used to be in engineering on tug boats and am competent not only to figure out the systems on a recreational trawler, but also to maintain and repair them. But that doesn't matter to a cubicle rat.

So I'm searching for a low priced captain to put in the 20 hours with. I'd rather pay a higher priced one for four hours, but it all looks the same to a paper-pusher, so there you have it.

 

[psneeld]

A lot of knowledge and skills transfer up and down in many sizes and uses of vessels, but not all.

In my experience, insurance companies seem to go with generalizations mostly and individual skills to a lesser degree.

 

[RonR]

I just got a quote from USAA's partner, Markel Specialty, on a 42' Kadey-Krogen: $1560.

I have extensive and lifelong experience in power, sail, and human-powered boats under 30' and crew/mechanical on tugs and schooners over 100 feet, but nothing in-between. So they are requiring me to get a training captain for 20 hours.

It's interesting reading that this is becoming the norm. I'd never heard of it. I also have a pilot's license and it is common practice to get an instructor to check you out in a new type of plane. So I had actually offered to do this with the boat - it just seems smart. I was expecting maybe 4 hours, so questioned them on 20 hours. They said it's a lot more than just docking and maneuvering. There are all the boat's systems to learn and so on. I used to be in engineering on tug boats and am competent not only to figure out the systems on a recreational trawler, but also to maintain and repair them. But that doesn't matter to a cubicle rat.

So I'm searching for a low priced captain to put in the 20 hours with. I'd rather pay a higher priced one for four hours, but it all looks the same to a paper-pusher, so there you have it.

I may be wrong, but I think that Markel is a non-admitted insurance company.

An admitted insurance company is backed by the state, which means:
• The insurance company must comply with the regulations set by your state's department of insurance.
• If the insurance company fails financially, the state will step in to make payments on claims as necessary.
A non-admitted insurance company isn't approved by the state, which means:
• The insurance company does not necessarily comply with state insurance regulations.
• If the insurance company becomes insolvent, there is no guarantee that claims will be paid, even if the case is active at the time of the bankruptcy or financial failure.
• If policyholders think their case was handled improperly, they can't appeal to the state insurance department.


Not so sure how much of a difference it makes.

 

[twistedtree]

I just got a quote from USAA's partner, Markel Specialty, on a 42' Kadey-Krogen: $1560.

I have extensive and lifelong experience in power, sail, and human-powered boats under 30' and crew/mechanical on tugs and schooners over 100 feet, but nothing in-between. So they are requiring me to get a training captain for 20 hours.

It's interesting reading that this is becoming the norm. I'd never heard of it. I also have a pilot's license and it is common practice to get an instructor to check you out in a new type of plane. So I had actually offered to do this with the boat - it just seems smart. I was expecting maybe 4 hours, so questioned them on 20 hours. They said it's a lot more than just docking and maneuvering. There are all the boat's systems to learn and so on. I used to be in engineering on tug boats and am competent not only to figure out the systems on a recreational trawler, but also to maintain and repair them. But that doesn't matter to a cubicle rat.

So I'm searching for a low priced captain to put in the 20 hours with. I'd rather pay a higher priced one for four hours, but it all looks the same to a paper-pusher, so there you have it.

You could ask what qualifications the hired captain needs to have. It's probably the ticket that you already have, or had.
Some time back when stepping up in boat size the insurance company asked that I hire a captain for a while. I asked what qualifications this captain should have and they said a USCG license. I showed them mine and said I was qualified to do the training. Never heard another word about it.

 

[FatBear]

I may be wrong, but I think that Markel is a non-admitted insurance company.
...
Not so sure how much of a difference it makes.

It could make a lot of difference. It says you are in Everett, WA. Would the state you are in make a difference? In other words, do I need to make sure they are "admitted" in California?

They are a "subcontractor" for USAA. I would think such a large and reputable company would make sure they had the best subcontractors, too. But I will definitely be checking on this before I sign up.

Thanks

 

[Portage_Bay]

You could ask what qualifications the hired captain needs to have. It's probably the ticket that you already have, or had.
Some time back when stepping up in boat size the insurance company asked that I hire a captain for a while. I asked what qualifications this captain should have and they said a USCG license. I showed them mine and said I was qualified to do the training. Never heard another word about it.

Like everything it depends. I've been a licensed professonal since the mid 70s. Some insurers take my credentials as qualifications. Some ask other questions. For my first personal boat purchase the insurer wanted to know if I'd had any loses. I hadn't because I'd not previously owned a boat. Coupled with the boat being an old woodie I was put in what they called an assigned risk pool. Very expensive coverage.

 

[Larry M]

You asked about experience, for what it’s worth, I’ve done several deliveries where the owners have submitted my resume (I don’t have a USCG license) to their insurance companies and they have been approved, in writing, each time.

 

[pkirkll]

I have a 1943 80 foot converted seiner that is my first real boat-- So no experience--

I have only dock insurance for hull value of 150000.

I could only find one company who would give a quote on this boat due to being a wooden boat and being wooden--- i think those 2 things were trumping my lack of experience.

I have more than that in it of course and she appraises for 200k--

but I cant understand all the gobblygook in the policy--

One thing got my attention and that was they would pay on the depreciated value......????

So im not sure if i should even keep the 600/month insurance or not.

I cant figure out what my net would be if she sunk at the dock

She sure is a nice one!!!

 

[68camaro]

Since we are looking for first boat, if insurance requires we take captain training does that mean we have no coverage while boat is in slip before completing training, or is boat insured but not when driven by us?

Thanks,

 

[catalinajack]

Since we are looking for first boat, if insurance requires we take captain training does that mean we have no coverage while boat is in slip before completing training, or is boat insured but not when driven by us?

Thanks,

When we purchased our boat in 2014, our underwriter required training. In the meantime, the boat was insured while berthed or anytime the training captain was on board.

 

[catalinajack]

I have a 1943 80 foot converted seiner that is my first real boat-- So no experience--

I have only dock insurance for hull value of 150000.

I could only find one company who would give a quote on this boat due to being a wooden boat and being wooden--- i think those 2 things were trumping my lack of experience.

I have more than that in it of course and she appraises for 200k--

but I cant understand all the gobblygook in the policy--

One thing got my attention and that was they would pay on the depreciated value......????

So im not sure if i should even keep the 600/month insurance or not.

I cant figure out what my net would be if she sunk at the dock

She sure is a nice one!!!

Consider an "agreed value" policy. If the boat becomes a total loss, the insurer will pay the agreed value amount. Usually, the agreed value will be the appraised value.

 

[pkirkll]

How come i cant edit my post--- i got up this morning and was reading an answer to my post and spotted an obvious mistake---

 

[Pau Hana]

I just got a quote from USAA's partner, Markel Specialty, on a 42' Kadey-Krogen: $1560.

I have extensive and lifelong experience in power, sail, and human-powered boats under 30' and crew/mechanical on tugs and schooners over 100 feet, but nothing in-between. So they are requiring me to get a training captain for 20 hours.

It's interesting reading that this is becoming the norm. I'd never heard of it. I also have a pilot's license and it is common practice to get an instructor to check you out in a new type of plane. So I had actually offered to do this with the boat - it just seems smart. I was expecting maybe 4 hours, so questioned them on 20 hours. They said it's a lot more than just docking and maneuvering. There are all the boat's systems to learn and so on. I used to be in engineering on tug boats and am competent not only to figure out the systems on a recreational trawler, but also to maintain and repair them. But that doesn't matter to a cubicle rat.

So I'm searching for a low priced captain to put in the 20 hours with. I'd rather pay a higher priced one for four hours, but it all looks the same to a paper-pusher, so there you have it.

As there has been a huge uptick in boat sales (55%) over the past year, and a huge jump (300+%) in claims, it's clear that the number of new boat owners with limited ownership experience is having an impact in underwriting decisions. The ideal jump in vessel ownership size is 10-12' - the trend has skewed wildly towards first time owners starting in the 40' + range. Hence, the training requirement- rather than say no, Markel is looking for an unaffiliated 3rd party (like a surveyor) to confirm basic competency in the operation of the vessel. As you have some experience, Markel is requiring a limited number of hours- if you were to go in without experience, I would expect Markel to require a named skipper for the first year in conjunction with 50- 100 hours of training.

I may be wrong, but I think that Markel is a non-admitted insurance company.

An admitted insurance company is backed by the state, which means:
• The insurance company must comply with the regulations set by your state's department of insurance.
• If the insurance company fails financially, the state will step in to make payments on claims as necessary.
A non-admitted insurance company isn't approved by the state, which means:
• The insurance company does not necessarily comply with state insurance regulations.
• If the insurance company becomes insolvent, there is no guarantee that claims will be paid, even if the case is active at the time of the bankruptcy or financial failure.
• If policyholders think their case was handled improperly, they can't appeal to the state insurance department.


Not so sure how much of a difference it makes.

Markel is a well known domestic company, admitted in all 50 states.

Since we are looking for first boat, if insurance requires we take captain training does that mean we have no coverage while boat is in slip before completing training, or is boat insured but not when driven by us?

Thanks,

Your coverage will be in force with a Named skipper endorsement- that is, the vessel may move only under the command of the named skipper until training is complete.

 

[Bmarler]

just wanted to give a shout out to Peter. he was really great to deal with getting coverage on my boat. watching the steady decline in quality of my previous carrier i was looking to make a switch and i'm glad i did.
he's a great resource in the forum, and a quality insurance agent. he can talk classic cars too. thanks again Peter,
bmarler

 

[BamaRican]

Hello to everyone! I’m new to the discussion. I’m the proud new owner of a 1973 Cargile Cutter. I’ve always insured my previous boats through Geico. However, they say that because the boat is over 40 years old they won’t insure it. I could use someone to point me in the right direction. Thanks for any help.

 

[DNT99611]

So I have a pair of old Rawson 32 foot gillnet boats. I am thinking of making one into a pleasure boat. One is mid 60's and the other is a 1982 model. Would the newer one be able to be insured? When looking at them both there is no difference other than the ages.

 

[bowball]

I’m in the process of buying an older trawler. 60’. Low hour twin diesel and bow thruster. I am new to larger boats.

Insurance was an issue I went through as well. I think Peter has been helpful to me and could find me insurance but ultimately he recommended I go with my long standing insurance carrier AIG (to his credit as he doesn’t offer them). They extended a quote at 0.06% of agreed on hull value with a 2% deductible. They would not have done so without the pre existing long term relationship I already had with them. This policy is for the West coast so no hurricane issues.

As for being new, it is expected around 50 to 100 hours of training with a single approved captain, some power squad type courses, and of course the captain’s sign off. I don’t mind this as I enjoy learning and there is much to learn to be safe and competent.

 

[Comodave]

So I have a pair of old Rawson 32 foot gillnet boats. I am thinking of making one into a pleasure boat. One is mid 60's and the other is a 1982 model. Would the newer one be able to be insured? When looking at them both there is no difference other than the ages.

Certainly have a better chance at getting insurance on the newer one. Maybe PM Pau Hana for help.