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socalrider said:
Ouch! There goes that dream! So maybe 30gph at 8kt cruise?

Repower? Probably not the most efficient hull shape….
Click to expand...

Counting some noodling around on side trips it’s about 1000nm from Port Townsend to Glacier Bay, 2000nm round trip. And then there’s the house loads, there’s no real house batttery bank on her, so a DD 2-71 running most hours of the day too.

Lessee…Ballard Oil in Seattle is quoting $3.89 a gallon today according to the Internet.

Emoticons fail me.
 
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Alaskaflyer said:
Maybe they’re selling because they’re almost out of fuel.
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This powerplant was sized to tug and push larger vessels and barges so I wonder
if there were any changes to the reduction gear or prop pitch while refitting.
I'd guess not so the engine will always be underpropped and very lightly loaded.
 
I guess I can't complain about my fuel burn at slow cruise with my gassers anymore.
 
Alaskaflyer said:
Counting some noodling around on side trips it’s about 1000nm from Port Townsend to Glacier Bay, 2000nm round trip. And then there’s the house loads, there’s no real house batttery bank on her, so a DD 2-71 running most hours of the day too.

Lessee…Ballard Oil in Seattle is quoting $3.89 a gallon today according to the Internet.

Emoticons fail me.
Click to expand...

Hang on a minute...
Regarding fuel cost in this cool old tug:
Over the last few days there has been a love fest going on over on another thread over a Fleming or something like it.

So a used Fleming in this length lists for $3,750,000 In Stuart Florida today and it sells with 820 horsepower aboard.
This boat sells for 250K with 675 horsepower aboard it.
Why are we panicking??
If you put down 500K for this old tug, you would have the boat (250K)and all the fuel(250K buys 60,000 gallons) it could use for the next ten years, so cruising fuel would be free from the day of purchase. That is ten fills and would cover around 50,000 nautical miles which almost no one on this forum will cover in the next ten years in any vessel.
Perspective people!:rofl: This is good cheap fun right here.
 
Beautiful tug conversion. Assuming it displaces about 150 tons, it will burn about 10 gph at 8 knots. Roughly.

I’d say replace the main engine with a medium speed of about 200 hp, so you’re cruising at 80% power. That would drop your fuel burn to below 8 gph.

1 nmpg is civilized.

But why would it have 150,000 btu of heating?
 
I wondered that too. Surely one-third of that would be enough unless in Arctic service. The ex-Fleet tender Fintry - 79 feet in steel - serv(ed) as a live-aboard in Boston harbor with a 50K boiler.
 
klee wyck said:
Hang on a minute...
Regarding fuel cost in this cool old tug:
Over the last few days there has been a love fest going on over on another thread over a Fleming or something like it.

So a used Fleming in this length lists for $3,750,000 In Stuart Florida today and it sells with 820 horsepower aboard.
This boat sells for 250K with 675 horsepower aboard it.
Why are we panicking??
If you put down 500K for this old tug, you would have the boat (250K)and all the fuel(250K buys 60,000 gallons) it could use for the next ten years, so cruising fuel would be free from the day of purchase. That is ten fills and would cover around 50,000 nautical miles which almost no one on this forum will cover in the next ten years in any vessel.
Perspective people!:rofl: This is good cheap fun right here.
Click to expand...

Not so fast Bill,

Drawing 6.5' and cruising with a bone in its teeth, it might be more like 3,000 miles per tank

No listing of displacement weight. $10+K haulout?

Insurance? $10k to $20K? if you can buy it?

We haven't even started on annual maintenance if you actually cruise it.

I don't think your spare $250K would last 3 years in annual expenses.

Ted
 
O C Diver said:
Not so fast Bill,

Drawing 6.5' and cruising with a bone in its teeth, it might be more like 3,000 miles per tank

No listing of displacement weight. $10+K haulout?

Insurance? $10k to $20K? if you can buy it?

We haven't even started on annual maintenance if you actually cruise it.

I don't think your spare $250K would last 3 years in annual expenses.

Ted
Click to expand...

I think y'all are right...but just for fun, let's go through your comments. above.
Libra draws 6' and weighs 135K, runs with a bone in her teeth at anything 8+ knots. I burn 5-6 gph and I am giving this tug 10 gph. I doubt she weighs double Libra. She is only 65 feet and Libra is around 55 feet.
Even if 3000 miles per fill, the next 30,000 miles!!! are covered. I will likely not cover that distance in my lifetime. That is Seattle to La Paz 15 times and Gulf of Alaska to Sea of Cortez 10 times?

Why the high haul out cost? Port Townsend and Seaview can haul her in her current neighborhood, and she has 10 more feet of length and three more feet of beam than Libra. So... Libra plus 1000$? I just hauled Domino in Mexico at same length and 5' more beam than this tug for $1000. Lift could handle 300 ton. This tug is not a big boat. Tanglewood is larger.

Why would insurance be high other than her age? h
Her hull value is less than half the value of my other vessels. Would it cost more to insure this tug than the Fleming? Agree, age may be a problem but that is coming for alot of our boats, boats that will not get this level of skepticism. And, I have already made the decision to drop hull insurance on my other vessels and go with liability only. Insurance has gotten senseless under certain circumstances these days.

Maintenance could certainly be an issue, but she appears to be well loved. I would be prepared to drive her into the ground and collect half of the purchase price in parting and salvage 10 years from now.

250 k spare lasting three years...ok, I still have 3.2 million before I get to what I sunk in the Fleming.
And... the really cool news is that if somehow, I happen to collide with that Fleming in the middle of the night in Johnstone Strait, I am not sure I even notice, and she goes to the bottom!!!

Just kidding.
 
Looking at those fuel burn curves I don’t see 10gph without a repower. I stick with 30gph.
 
socalrider said:
Looking at those fuel burn curves I don’t see 10gph without a repower. I stick with 30gph.
Click to expand...

Here is a fuel curve for a 6-71. Looks like 5 gph at low load 1400 rpm and I think we would all find that reasonable and would not be skeptical of a boat that had a pair of 6-71.
At the same low load this 12-149 looks to be around 10gph from the fuel curve around 10-1200 rpm.
I think it is reasonable to have doubt that this Jimmy would be happy at that low load for long periods. I share that skepticism. It might be fun to push that throttle forward for a few minutes every couple of hours though!!

I am in over my head here.....
 

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klee wyck said:
Hang on a minute...
Regarding fuel cost in this cool old tug:
Over the last few days there has been a love fest going on over on another thread over a Fleming or something like it.

So a used Fleming in this length lists for $3,750,000 In Stuart Florida today and it sells with 820 horsepower aboard.
This boat sells for 250K with 675 horsepower aboard it.
Why are we panicking??
If you put down 500K for this old tug, you would have the boat (250K)and all the fuel(250K buys 60,000 gallons) it could use for the next ten years, so cruising fuel would be free from the day of purchase. That is ten fills and would cover around 50,000 nautical miles which almost no one on this forum will cover in the next ten years in any vessel.
Perspective people!:rofl: This is good cheap fun right here.
Click to expand...

Only if you love green carpet! Speaking of tug porn....

 
klee wyck said:
I think y'all are right...but just for fun, let's go through your comments. above.
Libra draws 6' and weighs 135K, runs with a bone in her teeth at anything 8+ knots. I burn 5-6 gph and I am giving this tug 10 gph. I doubt she weighs double Libra. She is only 65 feet and Libra is around 55 feet.
Even if 3000 miles per fill, the next 30,000 miles!!! are covered. I will likely not cover that distance in my lifetime. That is Seattle to La Paz 15 times and Gulf of Alaska to Sea of Cortez 10 times?

Why the high haul out cost? Port Townsend and Seaview can haul her in her current neighborhood, and she has 10 more feet of length and three more feet of beam than Libra. So... Libra plus 1000$? I just hauled Domino in Mexico at same length and 5' more beam than this tug for $1000. Lift could handle 300 ton. This tug is not a big boat. Tanglewood is larger.

Why would insurance be high other than her age? h
Her hull value is less than half the value of my other vessels. Would it cost more to insure this tug than the Fleming? Agree, age may be a problem but that is coming for alot of our boats, boats that will not get this level of skepticism. And, I have already made the decision to drop hull insurance on my other vessels and go with liability only. Insurance has gotten senseless under certain circumstances these days.

Maintenance could certainly be an issue, but she appears to be well loved. I would be prepared to drive her into the ground and collect half of the purchase price in parting and salvage 10 years from now.

250 k spare lasting three years...ok, I still have 3.2 million before I get to what I sunk in the Fleming.
And... the really cool news is that if somehow, I happen to collide with that Fleming in the middle of the night in Johnstone Strait, I am not sure I even notice, and she goes to the bottom!!!

Just kidding.
Click to expand...

Ok, I made a mistake earlier, she draws 7.4'. I would really like to know what she displaces. With 10' more length, 3' more beam, 1.5' more draft, and shaped like a watermelon, I'll bet the displacement is well over double. Libra probably has a much more hydro dynamic hull shape. Then there is the efficiency of a tug boat with a 2 stroke motor well out of its optimal power curve.

As far as insurance, you answered your own question when running into the Flemming. The tug is a true bull in a china shop. Depending on what country you operate it in, I'm guessing the wreck removal cost and environmental liability of 6,000 gallons of fuel would be a significant factor to an insurance company. Then there's the experiences requirement to satisfy the insurance company. Lastly, there's the age issue of a vessel approaching 70 years old. Just out of curiosity, what do you think an out of water hull survey to satisfy the insurance company is going to cost?

While you can choose to abandon the cosmetics, 65 year old anythings are maintenance intensive if you expect them to run (cruise). I'm sure pulling a 4" shaft to replace a cutlass bearing would be cheap.

When it comes to measuring costs in boat units ($1,000 increments), I think you'll need to add another zero for this money pit.

Ted
 
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As usual we see where one guy worries about one variable, another guy over others.Many seem to think that their major are of concern is the same others have. But we keep seeing that is just not true. One guy rejects a boat because of its fuel burn, the other guy says he's not concerned, Unless a purly technical question, most issues are just personal prefetences.
 
That is an interesting video, I like the scrolling feature. My wife would like the bathtub!
 
JWellington said:
As usual we see where one guy worries about one variable, another guy over others.Many seem to think that their major are of concern is the same others have. But we keep seeing that is just not true. One guy rejects a boat because of its fuel burn, the other guy says he's not concerned, Unless a purly technical question, most issues are just personal prefetences.
Click to expand...

And then there are those who buy a boat at what seems a great price, only to find out they can't afford the operating costs, maintenance costs, or insurance for it. Marinas and boatyards are littered with the dreams of those who didn't adequately comprehend the financial reality of boat ownership.

Ted
 
Comparing that tug against the design of a similarly-sized trawler, it would displace about 100 metric tons. However, tugs generally are heavier, so as a guide I'd say in the 100-125 mt range.

O C Diver said:
And then there are those who buy a boat at what seems a great price, only to find out they can't afford the operating costs, maintenance costs, or insurance for it.
Click to expand...

So as an exercise, to make owning this boat achievable you need to control the biggest expenses (marina, insurance, maintenance, fuel consumption). I'd offer the following parameters:
  • Liability only insurance
  • Permanently floated to a mooring or anchored, never to touch a dock except to take on fuel
  • Take accurate fuel burn measurements before making any changes
  • Yank out that giant, old GM and replace with a much smaller, more modern mechanical engine, M1-rated, sized to operate at 80% at a 8.0 knot cruise speed
  • Can expect somewhere between 0.8 and 1.0 nmpg at the Vcr
  • Maintenance? From the beginning it will depend on its present condition, especially the steelwork, in all those impossible to reach locations. After launching with fresh bottom paint you'll likely go 3-5 years before needing to be hauled again especially if being actively cruised, floated out in the open, and gently scrubbed by its loving liveaboard owner.
 
Mako said:
Comparing that tug against the design of a similarly-sized trawler, it would displace about 100 metric tons. However, tugs generally are heavier, so as a guide I'd say in the 100-125 mt range.



So as an exercise, to make owning this boat achievable you need to control the biggest expenses (marina, insurance, maintenance, fuel consumption). I'd offer the following parameters:
  • Liability only insurance
  • Permanently floated to a mooring or anchored, never to touch a dock except to take on fuel
  • Take accurate fuel burn measurements before making any changes
  • Yank out that giant, old GM and replace with a much smaller, more modern mechanical engine, M1-rated, sized to operate at 80% at a 8.0 knot cruise speed
  • Can expect somewhere between 0.8 and 1.0 nmpg at the Vcr
  • Maintenance? From the beginning it will depend on its present condition, especially the steelwork, in all those impossible to reach locations. After launching with fresh bottom paint you'll likely go 3-5 years before needing to be hauled again especially if being actively cruised, floated out in the open, and gently scrubbed by its loving liveaboard owner.
Click to expand...

Liability insurance is the expensive part. The boat is only worth $250K. The Liability of hitting other things, wreck removal, and a 6,000 gallon fuel spill, clean up, and environmental fines is the expensive part.

So your planning to run a generator 24/7 instead of shore power, or is a $10K to $20K solar, battery and inverter makeover planned?

So how much is the engine, transmission, drive shaft, propeller and installation swap, $100K to $200K? How exactly did you plan to extract the 9,000 pound engine from the boat without major surgery and reconstruction? Far cheaper to throw $20K or $30K in the fuel tank each year.

Ted
 
"...$10K to $20K solar, battery and inverter makeover planned?..."
Is it so expensive in US ?
 

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I have no direct experience with the 12v149 engine but I think it could be made happy
with a prop re-pitch or change. Not a cheap solution but cheaper than repowering.
JMHO. ;)
 
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