Interior fitout - do I need stainless screws?

[lghawk]

Hey Everyone,

Hoping you can help.

I am in the process of stripping the interior of the wheel house and cabin. I am going to rebuild most of the joinery and bed frame etc and wanted to know - do I need to use stainless steel srews? It isnt exposed to the weather, nor is it getting wet.

I am going to use structural pine for most of the frame work - just working out the best option for the fixings.

Any advice?

Cheers!

Lyndon.

 

[Comodave]

I would use S/S screws. When regular steel screws rust, and they will, it will be a lot of work to replace them all. Good luck with the work, how about some photos?

 

[lghawk]

Thanks a million Comodave! I tend to agree with you... best to be safe!

I will absolutely keep you updated with photos on the progress. Just starting the strip-out now

 

[Comodave]

Have fun with it. Keep us up to date.

 

[Bacchus]

I agree with Dave. There is a wide variety of SS screws available these days and worth the premium to never have a problem.
I would recommend the square drive (forget the name?) vs Phillips. SS is soft and Phillips have a tendency to slip in some cases, especially if you ever need to remove any.

 

[FF]

SS is soft so if the pine is old growth you may need to pilot drill , but having 2 drills is no big deal .

.The square drives are great , but the T25 heads have even more drive area and will work great if the wood is soft enough not to fail the SS.

 

[mvweebles]

If you were in the US, I'd recommend setting up an account at Fastenal, a distributor of SS fasteners. Perhaps OZ has a similar specialty purveyor.

Pictures of progress please.

Peter

 

[DavidM]

I agree with using SS fasteners. In fact for routine home projects I have switched to SS. The price difference is insignificant and unless you need strength in which case I would use Grade rated bolts, SS has steel beat.

David

 

[Newtrawlerowner]

Hey Everyone,

Hoping you can help.

I am in the process of stripping the interior of the wheel house and cabin. I am going to rebuild most of the joinery and bed frame etc and wanted to know - do I need to use stainless steel srews? It isnt exposed to the weather, nor is it getting wet.

I am going to use structural pine for most of the frame work - just working out the best option for the fixings.

Any advice?

Cheers!

Lyndon.

I agree that SS is the better choice. I am refinishing some woodwork that the builder installed using steel nails. The nail heads got rusty and stained the wood. SS finishing nails or nail gun nails will be what I use to reinstall.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
ROBERTSON screws. Fastenal is a great idea. I have probably replaced hundreds of the nasty Philips screws with "Robbies".


Interesting but Robertson screws are relatively unknown by their proper name in the US. Square drive seems to be the most common description. No-one I know calls Philips, star drives.


Saloon.

 

[koliver]

I agree with Dave. There is a wide variety of SS screws available these days and worth the premium to never have a problem.
I would recommend the square drive (forget the name?) vs Phillips. SS is soft and Phillips have a tendency to slip in some cases, especially if you ever need to remove any.

In the US, they call the square drive screws "Square Drive". In Canada, they are called "Robertson" but they are even better, as they don't have parallel sides, but the sides are slightly sloped.

On my boat, Taiwan built, for the US market, a lot of slot screws and a lot of Philips screws were used. After 27 years of ownership, I have managed to remove many of those original screws. I like the satisfying splash when I hear the slot and Philips screws landing in the water, to be replaced with Robertsons.

 

[koliver]

Greetings,
ROBERTSON screws. Fastenal is a great idea. I have probably replaced hundreds of the nasty Philips screws with "Robbies".


Interesting but Robertson screws are relatively unknown by their proper name in the US. Square drive seems to be the most common description. No-one I know calls Philips, star drives.


Saloon.

RTF
I didn't see your post before stepping on your comments, sorry.
There is some sort of patent protection for Robertson, so the Squares are a little different.
You are correct of course, but now there are "Torx" heads that qualify for the "Star" description.

and of course, Saloon.

I can change, if I have to, maybe.

 

[Seevee]

lghawk,


Yes, SS are perhaps the best, but would argue to get a "trim head" square drive screw or torx. Skinnier than the typical SS screw of the same length, and you'll probably want some 1.5" and 2.25"... depending on the thickness of your wood.



You could use the trim head, square drive screw (Home Depot), which is a black galvanized screw and very popular for cabinet work. Easy to counter sink a bit and cover with a dab of wood colored wood filler. I've used them for years in cabinet assembly and never had a rust problem, but not on a boat. (but neither should get wet).



Now, for a head, my first choice is Torx (star). I've given up on the square heads, as they fail as much as a Phillips does.



And you'll want to glue and clamp the pieces and then put the screws in.



And, yes, pre-drill if necessary, but probably won't need it in pine.


Now, are you going to stain the wood or paint? If staining, you'll want to be gingerly with the amount of glue put on and certainly sand down any seepage, so the stain doesn't show it.

 

[GoneDiving]

Some observations from demo-ing the entire interior of my trawler, ready for a refit:

Philips heads truly suck. Unfortunately, Australia doesn't have many options. Go with screws with the largest slots for the guage size to ensure a good driver bite. Small slots look nice but strip very easily.

Get the correct size driver and some spares. They do wear out.

Steel screws strip far less than SS and are much stronger.

I didn't find a single rusted screw in 20+ yo cabinets. Certainly no unsightly staining.

Most importantly, what are you screwing? Screws are only there to hold the timber until the glue sets. ?. Glues now are much stronger than nails and screws. The wood or ply will break before the adhesive gives way. Bonded panels were certainly much harder to demo than screwed.

 

[GoneDiving]

Thanks a million Comodave! I tend to agree with you... best to be safe!

I will absolutely keep you updated with photos on the progress. Just starting the strip-out now

I should have asked: are the screws that you are pulling out rusted or damaged? That will tell you the level of protection that you need.

Trust me, after you have finished with your demo you will know what fixture methods worked best.

Good luck!! ?

 

[HopCar]

The US came close to being a Robertson screw country.
Henry Ford wanted to use them on his cars. He liked to control the production on everything that went into his cars. He approached Robertson about getting a license to produce the screws but Robertson wouldn’t sell the rights. Ford went with second best, Phillips, and that’s how we got stuck with Phillips drive screws.

 

[janice142]

I agree with Dave. There is a wide variety of SS screws available these days and worth the premium to never have a problem.
I would recommend the square drive (forget the name?) vs Phillips. SS is soft and Phillips have a tendency to slip in some cases, especially if you ever need to remove any.

There is a solution to the dilemma of Phillips head screws. Seek out JIS impact screwdrivers. Japanese Industrial Standard, at least the ones I have that are impact versions, have "teeth" in the pointy end. It really makes a huge difference.

Aboard Seaweed I had a cabinet pull that was gauled out. I tried Everything except drilling the dang thing out to get that miserable screw out. After nearly 40 years it wanted to stay put. Well, one tap with the (manual) impact JIS driver and voila: Freed screw.

Check 'em out. Plan on spending $20-$30 dollars, each.
You can buy a set (two useful, the other two are too small) for about $15 on eBay. The smallest is perfect for my eyeglasses though... oh, and the non-impact versions I bought do not have the "teeth"

I'd definitely recommend JIS though. I love mine.

 

[lghawk]

Thanks a million for the advice guys!

For the framing I went with 65mm stainless bugles - super strong and worth the money. No issues with rusting here!

To answer GoneDiving - All the existing screws on the trawler are stainless. Good thing the old owner didn't skimp! So I will keep the trend going

 

[diver dave]

...

.The square drives are great , but the T25 heads have even more drive area and will work great if the wood is soft enough not to fail the SS.

second the T series. They drive wonderfully, compared to Phillips.
I redid my dock last year, used a zillion square head SS screws thru PCV cellular decking into PT pine. I did strip out the heads on several. Philiips would have been a disaster.

FWIW; i find the SS phillips also tends to leave sharp burs on the head if being worked hard, another disadvantage.

 

[wkearney99]

SS is soft so if the pine is old growth you may need to pilot drill , but having 2 drills is no big deal.

THIS. I learned this years ago. Keep two cordless drills handy when dealing with a lot of screws. One with a pilot/countersink bit, the other with your drive bit. That and get a longer version of the bit than the typical inch-long variety, a full-length bit, not one of those crappy magnetic extension jobs.

If you're REALLY picky, use a stainless bit, so as to not impart any ferrous metals into the screwhead when you're driving it.

This is a set of stainless bits from Wera tha I keep onboard: https://products.wera.de/en/kraftform_kompakt_kraftform_kompakt_60_62_kk_60_stainless_imperial.html

Just note that stainless tends to be softer so don't expect them to be as strong as non-stainless, so don't go chucking them up into a cordless impact driver and expect them to last forever.

 

[Seevee]

As for Philips, one can use toothpaste to get a stubborn screw out.


As for Fastenal... they are really proud of their crap, brutally expensive. There's many better vendors.


And, true, the steel screws are stronger, so if that's an issue, use them, cover them so they won't rust... but using the black narrow ones for cabinetry, rarely rust...


And, yes, the glue hold it together... the screw is to hold the pieces to the glue.

 

[Simi 60]

S/S decking screws have square head's and are also self drilling
Available in 1000 screw lots on eBay or big hardware stores cheap..
We have hundreds , if not thousands of them in ours.

 

[Lou_tribal]

If I am right you are talking about cabinetry and the bed bunk. Why ss screw would be needed for such an usage? If you get your bed or cabinet wet you have more issues than the screw you are using.
You may also avoid screw by using joinery. A mortise and tenon join does not require any screw.
About glue, a reminder that (except for epoxy) long grain gluing is strong but end grain gluing is not, if you properly do your joinery you should not need any screw to old material to the glue.

L

 

[janice142]

As for Philips, one can use toothpaste to get a stubborn screw out.

I'm not familiar with how toothpaste is used. What's your secret??? Thanks.

 

[Seevee]

I'm not familiar with how toothpaste is used. What's your secret??? Thanks.

Janice,


Put a dab of toothpaste on the tip of your screwdriver and the grit in it keeps the bit from slipping. So, you can apply more pressure.


There's commercial products that do the same, but toothpaste is a lot cheaper and often handy.

 

[Bacchus]

It is helpful to learn how to maintain a sharp driver blade for straight and Phillips drivers. A small fine file works well.

 

[Simi 60]

If I am right you are talking about cabinetry and the bed bunk. Why ss screw would be needed for such an usage? If you get your bed or cabinet wet you have more issues than the screw you are using.
You may also avoid screw by using joinery. A mortise and tenon join does not require any screw.
About glue, a reminder that (except for epoxy) long grain gluing is strong but end grain gluing is not, if you properly do your joinery you should not need any screw to old material to the glue.

L

Add several more months and $100k for that sort of joinery skills

Same end result with less time on water and poorer for it.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. S. You may be forgetting very high the level of Mr. L_t's "wood butchering" skills. He has posted pictures of several of his projects in the past and IMO, the quality of the work equals that of the finest cabinetry aboard.


I expect the wood will be quite expensive due to recent astronomical price increases but the labour $$ will be low (free).


I can't speak for Mr. L_t but we have voluntarily simplified our boating season plans due to the continuing pandemic situation. Our one month cruise is down to 2 weeks with an accompanying change of locations.


The season has already started late and I don't expect that in spite of "global warming" many will be cruising this coming December. Labour Day is the usual, unofficial end to our season in this part of the country (Mr. L_t's as well) although REALLY nice cruising can be had well into Oct.


Probably the BEST year to do any major work too. How fortunate can you be to be able to have your boat right outside your front door, with your tools and workshop close at hand and no need to rush to the office every morning.


Edit: I forgot to add that his neighbours will probably get used to it...

 

[lghawk]

Thanks again for all of the comments guys.

As per my previous post - I have run with mainly 65mm stainless bugels for the framework and stainless 50mm decking screws for the plywood.

For the joinery, I will opt for as many stainless screws as I can find. Most of the joinery will have melamine internal carcasses with a v-board plywood face - all painted in white.

Ill keep you updated with photos!

 

[Lou_tribal]

Greetings,
Mr. S. You may be forgetting very high the level of Mr. L_t's "wood butchering" skills. He has posted pictures of several of his projects in the past and IMO, the quality of the work equals that of the finest cabinetry aboard.


I expect the wood will be quite expensive due to recent astronomical price increases but the labour $$ will be low (free).


I can't speak for Mr. L_t but we have voluntarily simplified our boating season plans due to the continuing pandemic situation. Our one month cruise is down to 2 weeks with an accompanying change of locations.


The season has already started late and I don't expect that in spite of "global warming" many will be cruising this coming December. Labour Day is the usual, unofficial end to our season in this part of the country (Mr. L_t's as well) although REALLY nice cruising can be had well into Oct.


Probably the BEST year to do any major work too. How fortunate can you be to be able to have your boat right outside your front door, with your tools and workshop close at hand and no need to rush to the office every morning.


Edit: I forgot to add that his neighbours will probably get used to it...

High level of wood butchering skills, you are too good my dear Mr RTF [emoji3]
Indeed it is great to have the boat just outside, I keep an eye on it while being in meetings remotely from my backyard deck.
Looks like the neighbours went over the initial shock as I did not hear from them since then lol Anyway who could complain to be able to see a trawler through the window? No possible complaint, no, not one.


L