Is there a Universal Greeting ?

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Gouchergirl

Please explain, you don’t think a sailboater would deliberately turn in front of a powerboat?

I can tell you it has happened to me more than once, the skipper of the sailboat looked directly at my boat and turned so I had to slow way down and put the helm hard over to avoid hitting the sailboat.

Hi Bigfish,
Thank you for allowing me to explain. Sailors can't turn on a whim; they need to follow the winds and contours of the bay/lake/ body of water in which they are sailing.
If they run out of either depth or water surface, they need to turn quickly.
But "quickly' is a relative term. It has happened many times to us on Narragansett Bay when a power boat is driving due south and we are tacking east and west. The sailboat has the right of way because they just can't turn like a power boat. Kinda like a hot dogger rushing down the ski slope while the amateurs are snowplowing back and forth.

Maybe the skipper was glaring at you because he assumed mistakenly that you knew he needed to tack at that moment? Maybe he was silently chastising you for not knowing the rules of the road? (that sailboats always have the right of way when they are not under power)

Maneuverability or lack thereof is the key to why sailing is more frustrating to both parties! The sailor hope that the power boater will understand and move over!
Gouchergirl
 
Yes I am both sailor and power and was commercial and rescue.


Yes I think sailors are full of it when they say they are better boaters and closer to nature.


Yes IRV is right that some sailors tack in front of you out of arrogance or ignorance.



No, sailboats don't always have the right away (stand on vessel).


No, not all sailboats are less maneuverable than the powerboat they are interacting with. Some are REALLY maneuverable under sail...I even used to surf my Laser.



No I don't need info on Colregs as I taught them for many years.


No animosity, just plenty of on the water experience.
 
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Greetings,
Ms. G. "...that you knew he needed to tack at that moment?" Unless there is an obvious obstacle in the sailboats way (shoreline, another boat etc.) how on earth would I ever know they "needed" to tack at ANY moment?


Not trying to be argumentative here and yes I have been "cut off" by sailboats but as long are no collisions involved, I just shrug and carry on. I simply assume that they know less than I do about what they might be doing.
 
Tacking isn't an automatically approved maneuver by the rules when it forces a powerboat to take emergency action to avoid collision. Rule 18 discussed "pecking order" but it states that a power vessel shall stay out of the way of a sailing vessel. Powering clearly astern can certainly be classified as staying away from...but a maneuver where the sailboat changes course dramatically and across the bow....sorry but that becomes entirely debatable who is at fault in a collision.


So staying far away is always best...but not always likely so sailors do take on some responsibility.



Rule 2 discusses prudent seamanship and just because of bad planning on the sailboaters part, tacking across a powerboats bow when close aboard is NOT prudent seamanship....it is a badly passed on belief that sailors are often taught when they first begin their lessons from other uninformed sailors.


All you have to do is be crew in one serious sailboat race to understand the basics of the egos involved....hearing them scream starboard at each other would make me smile no end. :socool: :D
 
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I resent the term sailor being considered a term exclusively describing people who sail sailboats, because the time-honored term is applicable to all who sail, whether the craft is powered by engine or sails. In the department of the US Navy, there are two kinds of active duty people, Marines and Sailors, both, for official purposes, are capitalized, and we don't have any sails on our warships. I would rather be called a sailor than a boater.

You don't have to have been a lifetime sailboater to understand the thinking of a sailboat skipper. Many of us had the opportunity while growing up to learn to sail for relatively shorter periods than the carrers in sail some describe here, but it was enough time to understand sailboat-think. However, it is quite possible that many die-hard sailboaters have not had the opportunity to run a trawler and not just any old powerboat in order to see what is happening on the other side of the coin where trawler-think reigns.

Those who have sailed and crossed the divide to trawlers get it. Those with experience solely on one side of the divide may have a bit more trouble understanding the other guy.

And here's a question. Outside of folks who may own both sail and power vessels simultaneously, has anybody graduated to a trawler and then electd to go back to cruising sail?
 
This part about giving way etc ..... we know what the regs say but, time may not permit to adhere to the regs. We have these VHFs that allow for communication "Sir, what are your intentions?"
 
Greetings,
Mr. OD. IF they have their radios on and are monitoring them. I'm tempted to re-install my loud hailer.
 
For some crazy reason, cruising sailboats tend to have the VHF down below and the "nav" station unhearabe, if on, up in the wind and weax where the actual nav is going on in ICW and other confined waters.

When I had a loud hailer in San Diego Bay on a crowded Saturday, I'd stick the mike up to a sound synthesizer which could make machine gun sounds and "strafe" wayward sailboats wandering across my bow.:thumb::lol:
 
This part about giving way etc ..... we know what the regs say but, time may not permit to adhere to the regs. We have these VHFs that allow for communication "Sir, what are your intentions?"


Actually many don't know what the regs say and if they do, they misinterpret or selectively interpret them.


So no a radio doesn't help much but start a pissing contest over who is right and by that time....both better be maneuvering.


Had a sailboat overtake me upwind of me and about 2 knots relative overtaking speed in the wide open Chesapeake. All he had to do was luff up for a moment to slow, then fall off behind me as he was about 10 degrees off my course but not pinching enough to not hit me if he did nothing.



I feared imminent collision and fell off 20 degrees...then without warning ...he could have softly spoken to me as he was only a boatlength away but never made contact....he gets all upset and turns 90 degrees into me an just barely missed my stern...literally no more than a yard.


A totally unseamanlike encounter. I saw him behind early and figured he would just angle a few degrees and pass behind me...he didn't and it wasn't till I saw him close aboard that I realized he was adamant about holding course till it was too late.
 
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Yup, a little road rage, at sea.
 
After all the crazy stuff I have encountered.... this was up there.... but I am pretty numb to it.


Between that and the lack of slips, GA and FL anchoring debacles, insane NDZ rulings, and the cost of everything marine with me losing steam to at least save labor....... getting hard to stay positive about living aboard and actively cruising.



If it would make it there without me having a heart attack...I would take the boat to Alaska. :)
 
How close is Too Close?

PSN says "I feared imminent collision and fell off 20 degrees...then without warning ...he could have softly spoken to me as he was only a boatlength away but never made contact....he gets all upset and turns 90 degrees into me an just barely missed my stern...literally no more than a yard."

Yet the sailboater clearly knew his boat well enough to miss. Apparently without a word. In the sailing group (I currently race on Lasers and Lightnings) when on Port tack, meeting a boat on Starboard tack and not being able to get past their bow, the usual manouvre is exactly what PSN observed, duck under the stern. More room than enough to avoid contact is wasted forward movement.

PSN: If I have misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
 
How close is Too Close?

PSN says "I feared imminent collision and fell off 20 degrees...then without warning ...he could have softly spoken to me as he was only a boatlength away but never made contact....he gets all upset and turns 90 degrees into me an just barely missed my stern...literally no more than a yard."

Yet the sailboater clearly knew his boat well enough to miss. Apparently without a word. In the sailing group (I currently race on Lasers and Lightnings) when on Port tack, meeting a boat on Starboard tack and not being able to get past their bow, the usual manouvre is exactly what PSN observed, duck under the stern. More room than enough to avoid contact is wasted forward movement.

PSN: If I have misinterpreted your post, I apologize.


After a lifetime of near misses with helicopters and boats....this was WAY closer than that guy had a clue of. ....luck was on his side, not talent. No decent boater in a well over 10 mile wide, deep bay comes that close anyhow. I am VERY good at distances and closure rates and I didn't think he would miss....I actually think he grazed my dingy on a davit.


Knew his boat?...maybe he did...but I would bet my life on luck being his guardian angel.


Would you really try to fall off behind someone when you had 2 knots greater boat speed than the other boat, was directly abeam less than 50 feet away in a 40 something sailboat after observing the other guy altering course in the direction you are turning and not sure if he might chop the throttle?


I hope not..... no other boater power or sail I have told the story to would. :eek:
 
Yup, near misses..... watch the Americas Cup race.... 'close' is when you miss. 'Too close' is when you don't miss.

I sometime think sail boats believe "I have the right of way.", just a little too far.
 
Scott. We have all had close calls, the sailboater was lucky it was you and not one of friends that would put a 12 gauge slug through the idiots hull. Good luck trying Alaska, take a defibrillator. :)
 
Scott. We have all had close calls, the sailboater was lucky it was you and not one of friends that would put a 12 gauge slug through the idiots hull. Good luck trying Alaska, take a defibrillator. :)

I have one onboard. As it was pointed out to me, if I am single handing and passed out on the floor, who's going to put the pads on me and punch the 'Restart' button.
 
No ..... it wasn't OK because he missed. Too close was the problem. As a towboat operator not only am I used to maneuvering close, but slamming into things to get positive connection with was common and I am used to close quarters.


Based on the average boater's abilities...no I am NOT going to assume he knows what he is doing and that he will miss.



If he was that good, he would have to assume that I am that good not to do something stupid and most likely I would assume he was the average boater and might hit me so I could have taken a bad corrective action in an extremis situation.


Nope...no matter how you look at it... it can't be justified unless he and the crew were passed out. I think long and hard about possibilities and give boaters the benefit of doubt because of inexperience. This guy was beyond 2 standard deviations out of normal boat handling.


And please stop comparing this to 2 sailboats in a race.... been there done that....still was too close unless you really want to gamble with your boat.


Lets get back to the thread topic....close calls and collisions still shouldn't affect a greeting to a fellow boater.... either sail or power.
 
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Hi Bigfish,
Thank you for allowing me to explain. Sailors can't turn on a whim; they need to follow the winds and contours of the bay/lake/ body of water in which they are sailing.
If they run out of either depth or water surface, they need to turn quickly.
But "quickly' is a relative term. It has happened many times to us on Narragansett Bay when a power boat is driving due south and we are tacking east and west. The sailboat has the right of way because they just can't turn like a power boat. Kinda like a hot dogger rushing down the ski slope while the amateurs are snowplowing back and forth.

Maybe the skipper was glaring at you because he assumed mistakenly that you knew he needed to tack at that moment? Maybe he was silently chastising you for not knowing the rules of the road? (that sailboats always have the right of way when they are not under power)

Maneuverability or lack thereof is the key to why sailing is more frustrating to both parties! The sailor hope that the power boater will understand and move over!
Gouchergirl
Your sadly mistaken if you think sailboats always have the right of way because they are not under power...... Colregs
 
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I also love how hardly any use a steaming cone so what are powerboaters to assume?.... Are they sailing all the time (sorry almost choked laughing so hard :rofl:)? or are they all motorsailing all the time?


Hard to tell, especially in many parts of the ICW ....so as far as following the Colregs...It's a free for all when you mix in the paddleboarders, kayakers, jet skiers....etc... :facepalm:
 
Ah Jack (Steve), not true if your a blowboater. They always have the right of way even if overtaking the stinkboater. :)
 
Yes, lots of powerboaters are a holes and sailboaters too, but only in the sailboater community is it the social norm to be taught outright to be aggressively anti social to all powerboaters all the time. Why continue to play games and snicker as if it’s not an obvious problem? The whole playing stupid thing when called on it, I don’t get. Do they really think they are fooling anyone?
 
I have a dear friend who is a sailboat racer and belongs to a YC that only has sailboat members. I invited him out for a day on Magic. As we cruised out to the Long Island Sound we passed his YC, I could not believe my eyes as he rushed below and hid as we passed so as not to be seen on a powerboat. You can't make this stuff up.
 
I have a dear friend who is a sailboat racer and belongs to a YC that only has sailboat members. I invited him out for a day on Magic. As we cruised out to the Long Island Sound we passed his YC, I could not believe my eyes as he rushed below and hid as we passed so as not to be seen on a powerboat. You can't make this stuff up.

Wifey B: Like the high school student not wanting to be caught in the family's station wagon in olden days. :D
 
Wifey B: Like the high school student not wanting to be caught in the family's station wagon in olden days. :D

The station wagon does have some good points. The seats do fold down, he says innocently.
 
I guess we're kind of bi or tranny down here on the Gulf Coast as far as boats - this is my first powerboat (other than small outboards) after decades of sailboating. Owned three blowboats ranging from 27-43', plus a few board boats.

An unscientific mental polling of the sailors I know has plenty of ex-sailboaters who moved to power, sailboaters who own power boats as well and vice-versa, commercial fishermen who own sailboats, and (the horror) plenty of all stripes that have a PWC or two.

I just don't see the rabid attitudes of sail v power that many above have referred to.

The near universal opinion of the more or less serious sailors that I know (power and sail) is that you better have your head on a swivel and assume nothing regarding other boaters competence or willingness to play by the rules. Drive defensively.

And, back to the OP, "Hi" and "How are ya?" seem to work pretty well.
 
I've seen a lot of bully boaters and bone head operators. It's not limited to sailboaters. Altho, sailboaters seem to drag anchor more and get caught in other boats ground tackle.
 
When I had a loud hailer in San Diego Bay on a crowded Saturday, I'd stick the mike up to a sound synthesizer which could make machine gun sounds and "strafe" wayward sailboats wandering across my bow.:thumb::lol:
Where would one find a similar synthesizer With the appropriate machine gun sound track?:angel::blush:
 
I guess we're kind of bi or tranny down here on the Gulf Coast as far as boats - this is my first powerboat (other than small outboards) after decades of sailboating. Owned three blowboats ranging from 27-43', plus a few board boats.

An unscientific mental polling of the sailors I know has plenty of ex-sailboaters who moved to power, sailboaters who own power boats as well and vice-versa, commercial fishermen who own sailboats, and (the horror) plenty of all stripes that have a PWC or two.

I just don't see the rabid attitudes of sail v power that many above have referred to.

The near universal opinion of the more or less serious sailors that I know (power and sail) is that you better have your head on a swivel and assume nothing regarding other boaters competence or willingness to play by the rules. Drive defensively.

And, back to the OP, "Hi" and "How are ya?" seem to work pretty well.
Agree. Sometimes I think it is psychological projection.
 
I still sail a lot both racing and cruising. Most boaters I know (or at least choose to associate with) enjoy spending time on the water regardless of how they get out there and hold no animosity against other boaters. I teach sailing at a well known school in Annapolis both in cruising and racing settings and we try to ensure that new sailors don't fall into the stereotypical "us vs them" debate. We are partnered with a yearly membership club that includes both sailing and power options.


There is a very significant differences between what is a reasonable amount of sea room between boats that are racing and boats that are not racing. Any racer who fails to recognize this is ignorant and impolite. Not only are racers active participants that choose to put their boats in close proximity to others but the Racing Rules of Sailing which is what governs 98% of domestic racing is not completely in line with the COLREGS. This goes for sailboats that aren't racing as well as sail and power boat interactions. Many cruising sailors have no interest in racing and have no interest in getting close to another sailboat. That said there are times in distance racing where a fully crewed sailboat may pass close by a moored vessel or fixed object, if you are out fishing and see a sailboat with people hiking out on the rail and sails are trimmed perfectly, they aren't going to hit you. If I'm racing approaching a moored vessel and the owner is aboard and looking sour, I'll go out of my way to tack around him on the other hand, on a Wednesday night in Annapolis harbor, the races end downtown and everyone should expect the fleet to come barreling (5 mph) through in a pack and taking the fastest possible course.

We emphasize the very significant difference between the myth of "right of way" and being a stand on vessel. Tacking in front of another vessel is not maintaining your course. There is tremendous value in having experience on both power boats and sailboats which improves your interactions on the water. For examples: sailors often assume that power boats are more maneuverable than they are and power boaters tend to assume that sail boats are virtually stationary. In my experience given the choice of passing in front or behind a sailboat when on 90 degree intersecting courses, the inexperienced power boat invariably will pass in front of the sailboat rather than passing behind the sailboat which would benefit both boats for two reasons: Because the sailboat is moving forward, the required course change for the power boat would be less rather than heading for the same direction the sailboat is going and the sailboat benefits from a wake to push them rather than a wake to the bow that can bring them to a halt is low winds. Another area where power boaters who have never sailed is anticipating when a sailboat will need to change the point of sail. A power boat may not realize that sailing dead down wind is usually miserable and that a sailboat will be heading up to avoid this or gybing and heading up on the other tack, running on a parallel course just to "windward" of a cruising sailboat is making their life less pleasant. Most trawlers are only going 1-2 knots faster than the sailboat and overtaking them may take a few minutes.It's typically better to pass on the same side as the sailboat's boom, this way if the wind shifts they can head up to avoid a gybe without getting closer to you.

One student I enjoyed teaching the most was a guy I knew of through my life in the charter fishing business. The animosity between fishermen and sailors is real but the company that was his day job was having a team building day at our school and he spend the day learning on a sporty and maneuverable sailboat. He really enjoyed the experience and it helped him understand and predict what a sailboat is going to do out on the water. In a similar fashion, I explain to new sailing students that don't fish, the methods the fishing boats employ and where to expect their lines to be when trolling or chumming jigging. Pass the fishing boat up-current to avoid snagging their lines or pass 100 yards behind a trolling boat, not because of right of way but to be a decent human being.

Sailors often fail to realize that trawlers are not as well mannered in heavy conditions as one might think. The take for granted how much a sail and keel steady the movement of the boat and a sailboat's rudder is proportionally much larger which gives better control going with the waves. If you have experience on small, planning power boats, they generally are more seaworth with increased size so it is pretty reasonable to expect a 40' semi displacement trawler to handle 4' seas just as well as a runabout in a light chop. This misconception doesn't often impact how the sail around trawlers but it may.


In my cruising classes, I have found some of the most studious sailors are the worst at maneuvering in traffic. They get hung up on stand on versus burdened vessel and forget common sense that if you just slow down a bit or alter course by 5 degrees early on, you will avoid another boat by several boat lengths versus holding your precise course and waiting to see if the other boat is going to alter course. Motoring around in a busy harbor or waiting for a drawbridge are among the most challenging situations for new boaters but a little practice, common sense and courtesy go along way.
 
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Yes, lots of powerboaters are a holes and sailboaters too, but only in the sailboater community is it the social norm to be taught outright to be aggressively anti social to all powerboaters all the time. Why continue to play games and snicker as if it’s not an obvious problem? The whole playing stupid thing when called on it, I don’t get. Do they really think they are fooling anyone?


I learned to sail when I was 5 years old in Puget Sound. I was raised by, and grew up around sailors. It was three years ago that I moved from sail to power. So in over 50 years of being around the sailing community, I never once saw anyone advocating the aggressive anti social behavior you claim as being a social norm.


Sure sailors screw up at times. I've done it plenty in 50+ years of sailing. I've failed to look behind me before a tack, I've inadvertently sailed into a traffic separation area, I've failed to give way to a stand on vessel, all while sailing. Other than maybe PSN, how many can claim that in a half century of boating they have never made errors?


Over that time I've also had a lot of unpleasant encounters with powerboats of all kinds. Most of the time, I attribute it to ignorance rather than malice. The worst was when I was caught in some heavy wind while running downwind on a broad reach through the Narrows with a spinnaker up. The boat was over powered, and I was short handed. I was going about 8-9 knots and a cruiser was overtaking me on my windward side. He was too close and was passing rather slowly. I couldn't jibe, I couldn't even reduce sail. I was trying hard not to broach. What I needed to do was come up into the wind so I could reduce sail and gain control. The presence of the cruiser prevented me from doing so. Even though I had a remote mic there in the cockpit, it took two hands on the wheel to control the boat. The boater gave me a friendly wave as he passed by.


He wasn't trying to make it difficult for me let alone put me at risk. He was passing too close to me (it would be too close to a power boat as well) but many power boaters do that when passing. (the Narrows over a mile wide so it really isn't narrow and is plenty deep). The guy just didn't know any better and likely thought it gave his crew a great view of a 40' sailboat flying downwind. I certainly would ascribe any anti-social intent to the guy.
 

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