Isolation Transformer - specific recommendation?

[twistedtree]

I must say, this topic is confusing. I can see why some members are not trying to be rude but trying as I am to understand the ABYC standards.

I maybe off base. but if something was UL approved or labeled UL. You know that they had it in there hands and tested by them.

I am sure TT is right, I am not in his league. But some testing must be done, how can a compony say its product is meets ABYC standards on its own?

There are a wide range of “compliance” methods across different standards, and different industries. In a few cases, the agency does the testing, or an approved lab does the testing. In other cases manufacturer’s self certify, often filing the results with the agency. In other cases, companies self certify completely. Look at the ISO 802 standards that define all the forms of Ethernet, both wired and wireless, and all of the IETF standard that define the IP protocols that run all the computers in the world. Those are all 100% self tested, self certified, and all you have is the vendors word for it.

The counter is that if a manufacturer lies, they will suffer in the market, and be liable for products that don’t perform as advertised. A few might try to get away with it, but any reputable company will not jeopardize their reputation.

This somewhat mish-mash approach works just fine 95% of the time, but there will always be a few who will try to cheat the system. That’s an unfortunate part of human nature.

I think the Newmar wording is vague, and marketing people get payed to not make false statements, but to encourage you to believe the best and the most about their products. An example is to say that product X meets ABYC standards. You would likely conclude that it meets all applicable standards, but that’s not what it says. That statement would still be true if the product met the wire selection standard, but not the GI standard.

This seems to have become pervasive in web sites now. There is little to no concrete product info, and only implied or vague traits. Pretty much all I can infer is the the product will make me happier, younger, and more attractive. Who wouldn’t want that?

 

[Iggy]

There are a wide range of “compliance” methods across different standards, and different industries. In a few cases, the agency does the testing, or an approved lab does the testing. In other cases manufacturer’s self certify, often filing the results with the agency. In other cases, companies self certify completely. Look at the ISO 802 standards that define all the forms of Ethernet, both wired and wireless, and all of the IETF standard that define the IP protocols that run all the computers in the world. Those are all 100% self tested, self certified, and all you have is the vendors word for it.

The counter is that if a manufacturer lies, they will suffer in the market, and be liable for products that don’t perform as advertised. A few might try to get away with it, but any reputable company will not jeopardize their reputation.

This somewhat mish-mash approach works just fine 95% of the time, but there will always be a few who will try to cheat the system. That’s an unfortunate part of human nature.

I think the Newmar wording is vague, and marketing people get payed to not make false statements, but to encourage you to believe the best and the most about their products. An example is to say that product X meets ABYC standards. You would likely conclude that it meets all applicable standards, but that’s not what it says. That statement would still be true if the product met the wire selection standard, but not the GI standard.

This seems to have become pervasive in web sites now. There is little to no concrete product info, and only implied or vague traits. Pretty much all I can infer is the the product will make me happier, younger, and more attractive. Who wouldn’t want that?

Thank you! I now have a better understanding. I think, some of it as a play on words.

 

[LenBuchanan]

Back in 2017 I bought from Defender and installed two Charles Iso-G2 3.6kv Isolation Transformers on the Port side shore power inlet. I tie up Port side at my dock. Installation was very straightforward. They did require a 2 pole breaker inline before the transformer. I'm not sure Charles are being made any longer. They have worked wonderfully.
When cruising, even if we tie up on Starboard side, I run the shore power cords to the Port side to ensure I am always using them.

A couple of years ago, our marina was hit by a lightning strike. The 45 Beneteau next to me had a lot of damage to electronics on board as well as other boats. As my dock mate and I were talking to a marine electrician about the issues, I mentioned that I had the Iso Transformers. He indicated that was the reason I had no damage on my boat. I wouldn't be without them as you can never be sure about the shore power at any marina you may tie up at.

 

[mvweebles]

Galvanic Isolator -

Closing loop on Newmar Galvanic Isolator, and my learnings/research:

1. Galvanic Isolator - you want one that will "Fail Safe." Meaning that in the event it fails, it does so in a safe mode. You would think this would be a good idea and thus designed into the device as a matter of habit, not just because it's specified by the ABYC codes (specifically, A-28). HERE is a good article from Steve d'Antonio with all the details you would ever want to know.

2. The Newmar GI30 and GI50 series are NOT compliant. Despite vague (and likely intentionally ambiguous) language that references compliance with ABYC wiring specifications, they are not NOT fail-safe and do NOT meet ABYC A-28. I have confirmed this with Newmar Tech Support (verbiage below signature block). It will still help save your zincs but in the event of failure, there is risk of electrocution to a nearby swimmer.

3. The "Dairlyland Galvanic Isolator is ABYC A-28 compliant. HERE - it is independentally tested to be "Fail Safe."

4. The Promariner "ProSafe" series ARE compliant (HERE) They are UL tested for compliance to Fail Safe requirements of ABYC A-28.

Many thanks to the technical contributors along the way, especially CharlieJ, Twisted Tree, and Steve d'Antonio.

Peter

EDIT - Response from Newmar/Xantrex:

Both the GI-30 and 50 do not comply with the current ABYC fail safe standard.

They complied with the standard that was written when they were released (manual is dated 2006).

An updated version that complies with the current standard is in development. ​

 

[DDW]

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought and why I questioned it. I went through this a year or so ago. I bought the Promariner.

The risk after failure potentially goes well beyond a nearby swimmer. A failure is most likely caused by a hard short from the line to safety ground, opening the diodes. Now every appliance in your boat has 110V on the case, and no breaker will know it.

 

[Bmarler]

I read a lot of information about galvanic isolators and isolation transformers when I was refitting my last boat. I came to the conclusion that an isolation transformer was worth the extra cost and effort. When I purchased my latest boat, and needed to rewire the ac system, I installed isolation transformers again. Too many benefits to ignore.

 

[mvweebles]

Weebles now has enough solar to be net-zero; and enough LiFePO4 battery capacity to endure several days of low sun conditions. Except for heating or cooling when at dock, there is no reason to plug in at all and plenty of reason not too. The expense and size of an isolation transformer was quickly dismissed, though with a conventional electrical system, I may have considered more closely.

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

Weebles now has enough solar to be net-zero; and enough LiFePO4 battery capacity to endure several days of low sun conditions. Except for heating or cooling when at dock, there is no reason to plug in at all and plenty of reason not too. The expense and size of an isolation transformer was quickly dismissed, though with a conventional electrical system, I may have considered more closely.

Peter

How much solar did you install? I have two new 385 watt panels to put on the pilothouse roof this spring. I’ve got about 1100 ah of batteries, so in summer I shouldn’t really need to plug in either. (I hope)

 

[mvweebles]

How much solar did you install? I have two new 385 watt panels to put on the pilothouse roof this spring. I’ve got about 1100 ah of batteries, so in summer I shouldn’t really need to plug in either. (I hope)

I have 800w solar and 700ah (12v) LiFePO4. The solar should generate at least 200ah/day during the winter in Ensenada and further south. When docked, my only energy draw of any significance is a fridge and freezer, both are built-in and heavily insulated. They might consume 100ah/day in the cool winter months.

The beauty of solar is it modulates output - as summer approaches or I head further south, thr more energy I'll need. Fortunately, solar system should simultaneously produce more energy.

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

I have 800w solar and 700ah (12v) LiFePO4. The solar should generate at least 200ah/day during the winter in Ensenada and further south. When docked, my only energy draw of any significance is a fridge and freezer, both are built-in and heavily insulated. They might consume 100ah/day in the cool winter months.

The beauty of solar is it modulates output - as summer approaches or I head further south, thr more energy I'll need. Fortunately, solar system should simultaneously produce more energy.

Peter

What do you do about hot water? Are you thinking the inverter will make that as needed? I didn’t make a provision for doing that, but might do so if my solar puts out enough.

 

[mvweebles]

What do you do about hot water? Are you thinking the inverter will make that as needed? I didn’t make a provision for doing that, but might do so if my solar puts out enough.

Hot water is a wild card for me. I see you're up in the PNW so more of an issue - Ensenada is a cold as I'll be (today is cool-ish with a high of 62F and partly cloudy). The Water Heater I installed is a 5.3-gal Isotemp with 120V/750w heating element (a 1200w element is available). My hope is a couple hours of solar in the afternoon will provide showers and hot water for clean-up, but I'm not sure how well that will work out. I do have engine-heat to the water heater too.

I have as much solar as I can comfortably install without hinging-out panels off railings and such. My goal is to adapt energy usage to what I can support, though I also tend to move around a lot so will have engine/alternator too (I have about 200A @ 12V from a pair of Balmars). Hopefully, that keeps things comfortable.

The challenge of cruising on a small boat (Weebles is a Willard 36 with 450 gals of diesel taking up a LOT of space) is organzing infrastructure, spares, and stores. Many compromises.

Peter

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Closing loop on Newmar Galvanic Isolator, and my learnings/research:

1. Galvanic Isolator - you want one that will "Fail Safe." Meaning that in the event it fails, it does so in a safe mode. You would think this would be a good idea and thus designed into the device as a matter of habit, not just because it's specified by the ABYC codes (specifically, A-28). HERE is a good article from Steve d'Antonio with all the details you would ever want to know.

2. The Newmar GI30 and GI50 series are NOT compliant. Despite vague (and likely intentionally ambiguous) language that references compliance with ABYC wiring specifications, they are not NOT fail-safe and do NOT meet ABYC A-28. I have confirmed this with Newmar Tech Support (verbiage below signature block). It will still help save your zincs but in the event of failure, there is risk of electrocution to a nearby swimmer.

3. The "Dairlyland Galvanic Isolator is ABYC A-28 compliant. HERE - it is independentally tested to be "Fail Safe."

4. The Promariner "ProSafe" series ARE compliant (HERE) They are UL tested for compliance to Fail Safe requirements of ABYC A-28.

Many thanks to the technical contributors along the way, especially CharlieJ, Twisted Tree, and Steve d'Antonio.

Peter

EDIT - Response from Newmar/Xantrex:

Both the GI-30 and 50 do not comply with the current ABYC fail safe standard.

They complied with the standard that was written when they were released (manual is dated 2006).

An updated version that complies with the current standard is in development. ​

Very interesting and thanks for sharing the details. As I noted earlier, if the units were "fail safe" they'd almost certainly say, "fail safe". They haven't updated the manual since the ABYC Standard was changed in 2008?!

Re. the resources listed in my article, both the standards and product specs can and do change, so I'm afraid the answer is yes, the buyer must be ware and look for the appropriate language from manufacturers when describing products. Interestingly, UL and ABYC compliance are not the same, in this case the latter is mandatory as it includes a requirement for a capacitor.

Somewhat related, I recently encountered a GI on a late model 55 foot vessel, on which is said "50 Hz". The unit is made in Australia. I reached out to the manufacturer twice for clarification, asking if it was safe to use in 60Hz environments, and to ensure the unit was compliant with the latest A-28 Standard (it looked as if it did not include a capacitor, being too small) with no response, which prompted me to tell the owner to replace it with a DEI. The unit and its online literature made no mention of it being fail safe.