KK Justification of High Price

[jimdavi]

Seems we are right back to the “trade-offs” discussion. Hard chine, soft chine, square, wine-glass transom etc.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Possibly overlooked in this discussion are two things. First the experience of the crew and second one's tolerance for snotty sea conditions. A trip to the marinas at Homer or Seward AK will find all manners of pleasure craft that have safely traversed the journey from the lower 48. With non KKs representing probably 95%+ of the recreational fleet.

Dirt Doc, maybe during a trip to sea on a KK you will find they rock and roll far more than you would have guessed but the crew is amiably chatting about football and interstellar travel. On our vessel we care less about sea conditions and more about visibility, rocks, debris and maintenance. I know of several KKs that did not fare well when they went aground. At the end of the day, crew decisions, not brand, tend to dominate IMHO.

I'm sure that Defever 48 is a sweetheart in the snot. I'm actually new to trawlers. I grew up on go fast fishing boats, mainly Skipjack. My cruising grounds for over 40 years have been the San Francisco Bay and Delta. My favorite sea condition was following seas. In a fast boat you just power up a little faster than the waves and enjoy the smooth ride. My first experience with following seas of over 5' in a trawler was about two months ago. I had to take everything out of my transom to wash off the salt water. At no time was I nervous but it got me to wondering what it would be like off the coast in 10' following seas. That was part of the motivation for this thread. It has been a major learning experience getting a trawler. I'm happy with my choice for now but when I get some more experience with the inside passage and cruising in general. I want to do some blue water cruising. I eventually want to end up in Palau. That was the other motivation for this thread. It's been a steep but fun learning curve. My next trawler and all of its systems has to be right. Because it will be my last one. lol

 

[healhustler]

The KK Manatee is surely the least capable of all the Krogen full-displacement hulls (there are several semi-displacement designs), but when it comes to a following sea, it is a thing of beauty. The photo is of my boat, pulled last week for an Insurance survey. The blue bottom paint is great for revealing the compound forms in her rising buttock. Pointing her derrière at big wakes and following seas, she just lifts and surfs. Mind you, I’ve not been in following seas above 8 ft..
We copied the shape, size, mounting angle and height of the KK 39 swim platform so as not to interfere with it’s designed operation. It should be noted that both aft quarters are actually out of the water with tanks full.

 

[twistedtree]

Handling in following seas is as much about the rudder size as the hull shape. Maybe more about the rudder size. Semi displacement boats will tend towards smaller rudders for better at-speed performance, but at the expense of following seas performance.

And the wine glass stern presents less for a following sea to grab hold of, but that same shape does a lot less to dampen pitch in head seas. Nearly all power boats now have squared off sterns because it’s pretty much the only thing you can do to reduce pitching. Couple that with an adequately sized rudder and good autopilot and you get the best of both worlds.

 

[healhustler]

Aft view.

 

[rslifkin]

And for those with small rudders, having big enough engines helps in a following sea. Throttle up and add more forward speed and water across the rudders and you gain more control.

 

[sunchaser]

DD
In your post 62 you mentioned you flooded the transom on your NP. I'm curious, what exactly transpired?

 

[ghost]

I have a traditional square stern, but round chines. She takes following seas with ease. Quite remarkably actually.

 

[jimdavi]

Ghost, what make/model of boat?

 

[fgarriso]

NP 49 in following seas video.

https://youtu.be/CBCeDi_selI

That is NOT following seas!

That is more like calm conditions in open water.

 

[ghost]

Ghost, what make/model of boat?

48 Tolly

 

[Gordon J]

No sure i agree

I think there is some confusion here. Dirtdoc is looking to put active stabilization in a semi-displacement hull. Your boat has a full displacement hull with an entirely different stern shape. Sunchaser was questioning if adding the active stabilization in the NP45 would make much difference in performance in a following sea.

My guess (and that is all it is) is that active stabilization on a semi-displacement hull form such as the NP45 would not make a big difference in the behavior that concerns Dirtdoc.

The behavior my OA 456 with stabilizers is considerably better than without stabs. I have not been in enormous following seas (with this boat) but think she will do fine. Even with my sailboat I could not blithely sail in any given direction at any speed. A down wind broach was possible if I got carried away.

Stabilizers allow me to sail in almost any direction with less roll. If I am rolling less i maintain both rudders in the water and generally have better directional stability. The other thing about stabs is that you can pay attention to other things when you Dont have to worry about furniture being flung about the salon.

Gordon

 

[dirtdoc1]

DD
In your post 62 you mentioned you flooded the transom on your NP. I'm curious, what exactly transpired?

The only thing that I can think of is it either 1) the waves were big enough to come over the transom in to the cockpit or 2) water was coming in the drainage holes in the cockpit, sloshing around and getting in to the lazarette or 3) there is a leak in the lazarette somewhere that is allowing water in. I have never had salt water in my lazarette before.

We were at Sucia Island and woke up to a storm. We headed across the Georgia Straight to Blaine. My boat was getting pushed around pretty severely. Not so bad that I was concerned but I was surprised at how poorly it handled a following sea. Especially since it handles everything else so easily. I had the auto pilot on until it seemed to exacerbate the situation. I steered for a while then put it back in auto. The auto pilot does a better job except that it occasionally makes the wrong move and makes things worse.

 

[dirtdoc1]

That is NOT following seas!

That is more like calm conditions in open water.

If Trevor Brice says he's in following seas I think you can count on it. He's been trawlering since he was a kid. He is also the founder and owner of North Pacific Yachts.

I agree that it doesn't look like following seas but video of waves is not very useful.

 

[jimdavi]

It’s very hard to see wave height on video inside of pilot house. Agree with trevor’s Integrity...still awaiting Seakeeper’s responce to my online inquiry. I’m estimating ~$45K for Seakeeper, are fins the same cost?

 

[dirtdoc1]

It’s very hard to see wave height on video inside of pilot house. Agree with trevor’s Integrity...still awaiting Seakeeper’s responce to my online inquiry. I’m estimating ~$45K for Seakeeper, are fins the same cost?

Jim,

Fins are almost half the price and the Seakeeper will take up most of your lazarette.

 

[jimdavi]

Ok, just heard from Seakeeper, the sharper the roll, the quicker the unit reacts. So, in a following sea, transom induced roll motion will be tempered by the unit. Very long slow rolls, it does not react to as well.

 

[Simi 60]

That is NOT following seas!

That is more like calm conditions in open water.

Looked rougher in the sink tonight when I did the dishes.

 

[Searunner37]

I own a 83 KK 42 presently for sale. Our reasons for spending the long dollar on it was because we transit the east coast from Maine and we wanted a boat to carry us safely in uncomfortable seas. Many a time we were crossing Gulf of Maine, Block Island Sound and the New Jersey coast in 4'+ seas with not another boat in sight and never felt in danger or for that matter uncomfortable. We have stabilizers and they work very well with only a couple of occasions where the contents of the salon slid across the compartment but never has it slid back. The second reason that we bought a KK is that unlike Marine Traders and Grand Banks, etc. when the time comes to sell the boat is not lost in the multitude of those boats for sale ads as it is a "cult" boat with only 200 built. The third reason which relates to reason 1 is the separate pilot house. We like the separate space for alone time but more importantly for overnight passages. Meal prep and other activities can take place and the pilot house can be kept dark and with no distractions. Oh and did I mention that my wife gets seasick easily( can't ride in the back seat of a car) but with her electronic wrist band she is fine even in big seas. We are really torn by the decision to sell but in order to be able to move onto full retirement it is a reality. On the other hand we have been enjoying semi retirement for more than 20 years and will move onto a smaller boat for the balance of our time above the sod. So in conclusion in strictly monetary terms it was a stretch for us but one we gladly made and would do again. Did I mention people scramble for their phones to take a picture when we go by. Life is to short to own an ugly boat.
Bob

That's the kind of info that I'm looking for. Expensive - yes but overpriced? Maybe not. If the additional money that you have to pay to get a KK is put in to the build and top of the line systems then that is fine by me.

If a KK owner tells me that the boat is over priced then I'll pay attention.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Rebel112r]

Dirt Dave.. Here is a link to older post on this site, some good info.http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/surfing-following-sea-auto-pilot-21341.html

Heading Sucia to Blaine is nearly the same as Sucia to Birch Bay, and this can be a nasty stretch. I have done it in the hundreds of times, and have a good deal of respect for it. Up to a couple of knot of current against the wind, and seas can be very short and steep. We returned from Alaska trip in 2016 and folks asked, what was the worst weather you saw, answer that year, was crossing the Strait from Sucia to home. It seems to always be on the stern or bow quarter or abeam. On the stern quarter, you may very well get a fair amount of water thru the scubbers, and even though the lazz hatch has a couple of drains, the hatch is not water tight.

Are you back in Blaine, thought I saw 3 NPs on the visitor dock last week? Dan

 

[SeaMaster101]

I can talk from about 10000 NM of experience that I put on with my 1972 47’ Cheoy Lee SeaMaster crossing the pacific from Mexico to New Zealand last year and many more miles before that...
If you plan to do it better have boat built for that purpose, and then you prepare it even further.
But use it first for costal cruising to get to know your boat.
You should look for a vessel with ocean crossing feature and the Hull shape is one of the most important for that purpose.

 

[Bill & Stella]

Here is my opinion. Like Belly Buttons - everyone has one. LOL !

There are a few other Ocean Crossing boat designs out there (Nordhavn, Diesel Duck, Selene, Kadey Krogen, etc., amongst others), that are Full Displacement Ballasted Ocean Crossing Designs -- And they all command a premium price over a typical semi-displacement or plaining hull boat like that nice & good looking North Pacific 45 you have.

I can tell you from personal experience of over 50 years of Open Ocean boating & being a Coast Guard licensed 100 ton captain for 30 years, that it is worth every penny when you life is on the line.

I was in the Farallon Patrol out of Brisbane Marina near you for a long time & we took people out to the Farallon islands & back & also transported supplies out there in all kinds of snotty weather, when no one else would go, - went out under the golden gate right into the teeth of the north Pacific right there in your back yard & I can tell you boat design make a big difference.

When the weather turns to **** & your a thousand miles to the nearest land, nothing better than a boat designed to take it.

IMHO - There is absolutely No substitute for the right design & build quality. I'll take a strong more conservative build every time over a flashy go fast design.

However, It is expensive to do that & to be honest, most people don't need that, as they are weekend boaters & go out only in relatively good weather like making runs to Catalina.

Sitting at your desk on your computer as we both are now &/or discussing it with friends over a beer in your living room there in Palo Alto, or even being out on San Francisco bay is a whole different thing than actually being out in it with your family (wife & kids, etc.) & friends along with you & them looking up to you & them trusting you & they are depending on YOUR judgement in choice of boat design to get them home safe.

Truth is, 95% of power boats are NOT designed to cross oceans & they are cheaper to build & sell for less as a result of the less rigorous conditions they are built to endure.

It is not hype that ocean crossing boats like the Kadey Krogen or Nordhavn designs are more expensive. They have to be or you don't make it !
There is no substitute for quality & the fancy stuff does not keep you alive.

We have a KK 42 & we love it. It does what we want & also does well in following seas as a result of it's stern wine glass design, huge rudder & over-sized fast acting Auto Pilot Pump & overall hull design. - but it is an 8 knot boat, & that is not what everyone wants.

We have had over a dozen different boats of all types over the last 50 years & I am sold on the ballasted full displacement hull design for my usage. But most people only do weekend trips and a Full Displacement ocean crossing boat is over kill for that usage. Plus most people want to go faster & never go out in bad weather.

Yes we cruise at 8 knots or so. But we always arrive safe & sound.
We sailed her to Hawaii & back & had no trouble getting insurance for the trip. Others here on TF also in a KK 42 have sailed them to the Marquesas, sort of in the same directions as going to Palau that you mentioned.
Ask to take your current beautiful 45 foot boat to Hawaii or the Marquesas on her own bottom & your insurance company will drop you like a hot rock. -- Their is a reason for that. They know the odds !

So that is my opinion. --

BTW - here is another opinion, My good friend, Richard Boast, who most know here on TF & his boat "Dauntless" took his Kadey-Krogen 42 (just like mine) across the Atlantic Ocean twice - once each way - also toured Scandinavia & British Isles, North Sea, France, Spain & Morocco, Canary Islands, Caribbean Sea, Panama Canal & then did the bash up the Pacific Ocean West Coast all the way to Alaska, as a testament to his Kadey Krogen Ballasted Full Displacement hull design, sea keeping & ocean crossing abilities. I can tell you he would NOT have anything else than a ballasted full displacement hull design under him for those type of trips.

There are a lot of compromises when you design a boat & something like getting better following sea handling means you have a tapered stern & smaller transom & that means less interior room in the boat for same over all length.
another thing is Better speed is often more important to most buyers as well as the lower price tag that comes with a semi-displacement design.

So you pay your money & make your choice. All boats are a compromise.

So, Good luck in your search for the perfect boat at the perfect price for you.

Thanks.

Alfa Mike

If TF had a "TOP POST OF THE MONTH" contest this would be a winner!

 

[Simi 60]

That's the kind of info that I'm looking for. Expensive - yes but overpriced? Maybe not. If the additional money that you have to pay to get a KK is put in to the build and top of the line systems then that is fine by me.

If a KK owner tells me that the boat is over priced then I'll pay attention.

Thanks for the info!

The iPhone of boats perhaps?
Plenty do same or similar job for a lot less coin but the phanboys refuse to believe.

 

[Julsburd]

I haven't posted on TF for awhile but I had to weigh in on this topic... We just bought our "new to us" Selene 43 after having looked at Krogen North Sea's, Krogen Express, Krogen 42's, GB, DeFever's and even the GH47. I remember telling my husband after looking at the Krogen's that they seemed very overpriced. I was speaking from the lady's perspective, but that has to be taken into consideration too when evaluating the cost vs. function of your trawler. We found that the Selene combined the build quality with the fit and finish of a Krogen or a GB but at a much better price point. Not sure why. We would have had to buy a KK that was 10 years older in order to keep the price competitive with the Selene. I do agree with some of the posts that resale value is very important and the KK's seem to hold their value over and above the others again... not sure why. The "cult" boat phenomenon does explain some of it.

 

[SailorGreg]

Why a Krogen

There are about 600 Krogens out there for a reason. Calling us cultists because you are unable to appreciate the merits of the boat may not be the best way to explain the phenomenon.
Boats sell for what they are worth in the market. If, after selling 600+ boats, the KK badge merits a premium price, then it is likely because of the underlying quality of the boat, and not marketing hype. I dont know of any boat builder in the trawler business that can afford to price in a "cultist premium" and still stay in business. If you can't see the value difference in build quality, systems integration and equipment between a Krogen a Selene or a Defever, then buy a Selene or a Defever and I am sure you will be happy with your choice.
Ocean going boats cost more to build than coastal boats. And lots of people buy ocean-capable boats that do not intend to cross oceans. But an ocean capable boat may be just what you want if caught in the Gulf Stream on a bad day. I, for one, do not want to be riding significant waves on the quarter in a Selene, or even some Nordhavns, for that matter. All three boats are perfectly capable but I will be the most comfortable. Look at the stern quarter hull shape of the modern Selene and you will understand why. Yes, a Selene can push a somewhat full displacement hull a little faster without squatting, but at what price?
And when it gets really rough my stabilizers will keep me level and my autopilot will steer me straight; because the hull and rudders are designed for these conditions.
But all this talk of crossing oceans is really not the point. Few of us want to, and fewer still, will. So why pay the premium for a boat with capabilities we don't need? While most Krogen owners will not cross oceans, many of us still spend lots of time in the ocean, making multi-day trips up and down the coast. And the capabilities of a Krogen give us a margin of safety and comfort not available from lesser capable boats.
Some Krogen owners never leave protected waters. So why do they spend the premium? A couple of reasons. First, many Krogen owners live aboard either part time, or full time, and Krogens are comfortable homes on the water. Others own them because they just appreciate the quality and the excellent service from the builder. And still others appreciate that Krogens just look good.
Finally, the Krogen Cruisers association is an active club with hundreds of members that get together for both formal and informal events. See us in Solomons 9-12 October when 50 or so Krogens will take over Calvert Marina for a week of presentations, classes and socializing.
And if that makes us a cult, so be it.

 

[Mikala]

There are about 600 Krogens out there for a reason. Calling us cultists because you are unable to appreciate the merits of the boat may not be the best way to explain the phenomenon.

Boats sell for what they are worth in the market. If, after selling 600+ boats, the KK badge merits a premium price, then it is likely because of the underlying quality of the boat, and not marketing hype. I dont know of any boat builder in the trawler business that can afford to price in a "cultist premium" and still stay in business. If you can't see the value difference in build quality, systems integration and equipment between a Krogen a Selene or a Defever, then buy a Selene or a Defever and I am sure you will be happy with your choice.

Ocean going boats cost more to build than coastal boats. And lots of people buy ocean-capable boats that do not intend to cross oceans. But an ocean capable boat may be just what you want if caught in the Gulf Stream on a bad day. I, for one, do not want to be riding significant waves on the quarter in a Selene, or even some Nordhavns, for that matter. All three boats are perfectly capable but I will be the most comfortable. Look at the stern quarter hull shape of the modern Selene and you will understand why. Yes, a Selene can push a somewhat full displacement hull a little faster without squatting, but at what price?

And when it gets really rough my stabilizers will keep me level and my autopilot will steer me straight; because the hull and rudders are designed for these conditions.

But all this talk of crossing oceans is really not the point. Few of us want to, and fewer still, will. So why pay the premium for a boat with capabilities we don't need? While most Krogen owners will not cross oceans, many of us still spend lots of time in the ocean, making multi-day trips up and down the coast. And the capabilities of a Krogen give us a margin of safety and comfort not available from lesser capable boats.

Some Krogen owners never leave protected waters. So why do they spend the premium? A couple of reasons. First, many Krogen owners live aboard either part time, or full time, and Krogens are comfortable homes on the water. Others own them because they just appreciate the quality and the excellent service from the builder. And still others appreciate that Krogens just look good.

Finally, the Krogen Cruisers association is an active club with hundreds of members that get together for both formal and informal events. See us in Solomons 9-12 October when 50 or so Krogens will take over Calvert Marina for a week of presentations, classes and socializing.

And if that makes us a cult, so be it.

This is funny.

 

[Searunner37]

There are about 600 Krogens out there for a reason. Calling us cultists because you are unable to appreciate the merits of the boat may not be the best way to explain the phenomenon.



My use of cult may have been a poor choice of words. Devotee might have been a better choice.
Bob

 

[sunchaser]

A very small percentage of blue water rated vessels actually cross oceans. So why pay extra for that capability? Because one can. I've spent considerable time on several KKs and like any seasoned boater can pick at things I don't like on any of the models. In fact I've seen several sloppy engineering things on KKs.

But price is not an arguable issue. The market place rules. As does image for those never intending a long ocean passage. Kinda like having a Mercedes G wagon that never goes off road. Nice vehicle though.

Flemings are pricey in comparison to other vessels, why is that? Scarcity maybe? All this said, the new design KK 50 certainly has a nice ER in comparison to the 42, 44, 48 and old 54. Even rivaling DeFevers!

 

[BandB]

The value of semi-displacement or planing in one simple example.

Left Fort Lauderdale at 7:00 AM Thursday morning. Arrived Bermuda at 10:00 AM today. Most of trip was 3' with long periods, a little 4' with 8 and 9 second periods. All swells, very little wind waves. Even the last couple of hours we hit 5' but it was at 17 seconds so still nothing big.

Tomorrow, 8' at 17 seconds. Monday 10' at 15 seconds. Tomorrow the wind waves are 6' at 8 seconds and swell is 6' at 17 seconds. Monday, wind is 7' at 7 seconds and swell is 6' at 15 seconds. Wednesday conditions were still rough so the window for ideal cruising was Thursday to Saturday.

We see a lot of windows like this just going to the Bahamas. Easy to Bimini at fast boats make it in 2-3 hours and slow in less than a day. However, to Nassau or the Exumas or Eleuthera or Abacos, at speed, it's one day of daylight. At speeds below displacement, it's at day, all night, and another few hours. If only two making the trip, then it's a challenge sleep wise. If single handing, it's 30 hours without sleep and ill advised.

Now most boaters are perfectly happy never going to Bermuda and many are happy without the Bahamas. I'm not ready to say the Elling is sea worthy as I don't know, but if it is, then some benefit. However, the next challenge is range at it's semi-displacement speed. With most semi-displacement, the range drops so that they can't make 1000 mile trips at speed. Our first action upon arriving today was fueling as we used about 2/3 of our fuel so couldn't make it here and back at speed. Which brings us to another point in favor of displacement. Most who can make it at higher speed, don't do so due to fuel. At 11 knots, we would have used 31% as much fuel and at 9 knots, would have used 21% as much. So any advantage is semi-displacement or planing also comes at a cost.

We will see about the Elling but very unproven at this point. Long range semi-displacement is primarily larger boats, above 70'. Fleming offers semi-displacement speeds. They are probably the best example under 70'. Grand Banks did so for years. Now the Grand Banks 60 is a planing boat. I haven't seen it proven in rough water so would have some reservations. However, it's range is stated to be 2500 nm at 10 knots and at 20 knots, 950 nm. Cruising speed of 27 knots and WOT is 36 knots. I don't know it's ocean crossing ability but until proven I'd stick to KK and others for that. I've not yet talked to any owner of the Grand Banks 60. It still looks to fit their heritage of great coastal boats.

 

[DLaNeve]

I have had 7 boats over 30 years. The last 2 have been Kadey Krogen’s (a 48 and currently a 55). I live aboard and travel approximately 3,500 miles a year. There is no question, our boat is far more seaworthy than we are!!
There are only 2 full displacement boats manufacturers to chose from, Nordhaven and Kadey Krogen. Either will easily cross an ocean. Similar pricing, but KKs hold there value much better. If you choose a Nordhaven do not even think about those with a bulbous hull!! Impossible too steer.
BTW: All Kadey Krogen’s are full displacement hulls. There is another boat called Krogen Express that is a semi- displacement hull. However this is a different company.