KK Justification of High Price

[dirtdoc1]

I own a 83 KK 42 presently for sale. Our reasons for spending the long dollar on it was because we transit the east coast from Maine and we wanted a boat to carry us safely in uncomfortable seas. Many a time we were crossing Gulf of Maine, Block Island Sound and the New Jersey coast in 4'+ seas with not another boat in sight and never felt in danger or for that matter uncomfortable. We have stabilizers and they work very well with only a couple of occasions where the contents of the salon slid across the compartment but never has it slid back. The second reason that we bought a KK is that unlike Marine Traders and Grand Banks, etc. when the time comes to sell the boat is not lost in the multitude of those boats for sale ads as it is a "cult" boat with only 200 built. The third reason which relates to reason 1 is the separate pilot house. We like the separate space for alone time but more importantly for overnight passages. Meal prep and other activities can take place and the pilot house can be kept dark and with no distractions. Oh and did I mention that my wife gets seasick easily( can't ride in the back seat of a car) but with her electronic wrist band she is fine even in big seas. We are really torn by the decision to sell but in order to be able to move onto full retirement it is a reality. On the other hand we have been enjoying semi retirement for more than 20 years and will move onto a smaller boat for the balance of our time above the sod. So in conclusion in strictly monetary terms it was a stretch for us but one we gladly made and would do again. Did I mention people scramble for their phones to take a picture when we go by. Life is to short to own an ugly boat.
Bob

Don't sell it!

 

[dirtdoc1]

I have had 7 boats over 30 years. The last 2 have been Kadey Krogen’s (a 48 and currently a 55). I live aboard and travel approximately 3,500 miles a year. There is no question, our boat is far more seaworthy than we are!!
There are only 2 full displacement boats manufacturers to chose from, Nordhaven and Kadey Krogen. Either will easily cross an ocean. Similar pricing, but KKs hold there value much better. If you choose a Nordhaven do not even think about those with a bulbous hull!! Impossible too steer.
BTW: All Kadey Krogen’s are full displacement hulls. There is another boat called Krogen Express that is a semi- displacement hull. However this is a different company.

Do you not consider a Selene worthy of adding to that very short list?

 

[DLaNeve]

I almost bought a Selene 52. But I ultimately decided a full displacement hull was a requirement. That leaves only 2 choices, Nordhaven and KK.

 

[dirtdoc1]

I haven't posted on TF for awhile but I had to weigh in on this topic... We just bought our "new to us" Selene 43 after having looked at Krogen North Sea's, Krogen Express, Krogen 42's, GB, DeFever's and even the GH47. I remember telling my husband after looking at the Krogen's that they seemed very overpriced. I was speaking from the lady's perspective, but that has to be taken into consideration too when evaluating the cost vs. function of your trawler. We found that the Selene combined the build quality with the fit and finish of a Krogen or a GB but at a much better price point. Not sure why. We would have had to buy a KK that was 10 years older in order to keep the price competitive with the Selene. I do agree with some of the posts that resale value is very important and the KK's seem to hold their value over and above the others again... not sure why. The "cult" boat phenomenon does explain some of it.

Agree!

 

[dirtdoc1]

I almost bought a Selene 52. But I ultimately decided a full displacement hull was a requirement. That leaves only 2 choices, Nordhaven and KK.

Selene's are full displacement. What gave you the idea that Selene was not full displacement?

 

[Voyager3]

I have a Manatee also. It does like following seas. She runs true. As far as 8 knots well let’s just say it’s all about the journey!! I have seen 9.5 with a fast current.. Have fun

 

[sunchaser]

Or just buy an FPB and be done with it. Speed, efficiency, outstanding sea keeping and quality. Of course a bit of money helps too.

BTW, many more FD boats made other than Ns and KKs. In reality though, SD boats in the 30 to 70' size rule by sheer volume, gotta get there fast and have room for multitudes.

 

[BandB]

In reality though, SD boats in the 30 to 70' size rule by sheer volume, gotta get there fast and have room for multitudes.

The one resource just as short for many people as money is time. Working young couples, working parents, even working grandparents are limited as are their children and grandchildren. That leads to semi-displacement and planing boats.

 

[sunchaser]

The one resource just as short for many people as money is time. Working young couples, working parents, even working grandparents are limited as are their children and grandchildren. That leads to semi-displacement and planing boats.

Yup, there are many Pacific Mariners out there that accomplish speed and people carrying quite nicely. A 10 year old PM 65 is quite a bargain in comparison to a Fleming.

So to the OP Dirtdoc, unless you're going to cross oceans there are many vessels out there that offer a much better price point than a KK. And able to do the same things, except sadly you're not invited to a KK rendevouz.

 

[BandB]

So to the OP Dirtdoc, unless you're going to cross oceans there are many vessels out there that offer a much better price point than a KK. And able to do the same things, except sadly you're not invited to a KK rendevouz.

No, the difference isn't the rendezvous. I'ts the "Going to cross oceans" which can be long or short crossings but does distinguish them from many other brands. Your "Unless" is the key.

 

[aevdg]

"Unless" is the Key - give me my "cult" boat.

Years ago I read a book addressed to women on how to buy a car. It was not written to "put down" women, but for women who might not have a lot of experience in how to evaluate what kind of car was appropriate, it was a GREAT book. Same applies to boats. You select a boat for what you are planning to do with it. If you are planning to stay in Puget Sound (one of my favorite places) and never venture out, or stay in the Sacramento delta or San Diego Bay or San Francisco Bay, your boat needs are different than if you are planning to cross an ocean or two. Or three. Your price point may be very different as well, but don't judge the KK to be over priced. I would agree, you might not need to spend the same amount of money if you never venture out of San Francisco Bay and don't even get close to the Golden Gate (nothing wrong with that) - but as someone who HAS gone out the Gate multiple times and done the Bash up the coast of the Californias in the tail of a hurricane - the KK is not overpriced. It all depends on what you want the boat to do - and when my KK42 is rolling gunwhale to gunwhale - it's nice to know that she is going to come back up.

 

[ddw36]

I almost bought a Selene 52. But I ultimately decided a full displacement hull was a requirement. That leaves only 2 choices, Nordhaven and KK.

What about the Diesel Ducks? They're Buehler designed from keel up to cross oceans.

 

[BandB]

What about the Diesel Ducks? They're Buehler designed from keel up to cross oceans.

As Diesel Ducks have been built by many different people, the quality and the seaworthiness varies greatly. I've known owners who would swear by their ducks and those who would swear at them. I wouldn't consider the smaller ones, regardless of Buehler intent. Some of the larger ones I might depending on how well built. Frankly, a bit of a crap shoot and I don't want that for a boat I'm intending to cross oceans in.

 

[JDCAVE]

We looked for and at boats for 2 years before finally pulling the trigger. We started at looking at CHB 34’s various tri cabins and Europa style vessels before finally deciding we really wanted a Pilothouse. It turns out that the KK42 has the largest pilothouse of any vessel of its length as well as the largest overall living space. Are there issues with the build quality of the KK42? Yes, there are, but at the time, whilst looking at NPT 42’s and 43’s, and Nordhavn 40’s which cost $100,000 more, we decided this was the right vessel for us. And we still do. Yes, I curse some of it’s issues, but by and large she is exactly the vessel we want.

Jim

 

[Simi 60]

There are plenty of full displacement ocean crossing passagmakers, non Nordhavn nor KK if you look.

 

[dirtdoc1]

I've decided to go with Key Power stabilizers. Has anyone used Key Power stabilizers? I think they are all pretty good. That should get me up and down the coast in relative comfort. Eventually I'm going to get a full displacement trawler and head toward Hawaii, Guam and Palau. I fell in love with Palau on a two week business trip there in the early 2000s. I hope it hasn't changed too much. But first I want to head to the Broughton's next season then take the boat home to Redwood City. Once there I want to cruise the Delta for a season or two. Run up the Napa River, Petaluma River and the Sacramento River. I've been up all but the Napa and never spent more than a week doing it because of work which, I don't have to worry about anymore. I'd like to run down to Ensenada spending some time in Santa Cruz, Monterey, Santa Barbara and San Diego on the way. By then I should have a pretty good idea of whether I want to spend time crossing oceans or not. Coastal cruising other than the PNW is new to me. Almost all of my cruising experience is in protected waters. I don't know if San Francisco Bay fits in that category. The bay gets pretty brutal in the afternoon when the tide is going out and the wind is blowing in. You get standing waves (chop) 5-8' spaced very close and it is brutal. In my last two seasons I've cruised 1600nm in the protected waterways of the inside passage of the PNW and have only a couple of times experienced conditions as bad as the SF Bay. But most of my time spent on the bay was in a 25' Skipjack fishing boat. I'm very interested to see what it's like in my NP45. I'm sure the following seas are going to be horrible in my trawler, when they were so comfortable in the Skipjack.

If the KK is as good in following seas as many owners claim I think that will be the boat that I'll use to cross oceans. I appreciate all of the feedback. It turned out to be a pretty fun thread!

Cheers!

 

[BandB]

I've decided to go with Key Power stabilizers. Has anyone used Key Power stabilizers? I think they are all pretty good. !

Why Key Power? Interesting reading but I'd never heard of them before your post. Are they zero speed stabilizers or just speed? I see how using some kind of gyro control they could be zero speed if you were running the generator with the PTO to the hydraulics for them.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Why Key Power? Interesting reading but I'd never heard of them before your post. Are they zero speed stabilizers or just speed? I see how using some kind of gyro control they could be zero speed if you were running the generator with the PTO to the hydraulics for them.

They run off of the engine so they are only speed control. Which, is fine by me since the boat is so well behaved at anchor.

 

[ddw36]

As Diesel Ducks have been built by many different people, the quality and the seaworthiness varies greatly. I've known owners who would swear by their ducks and those who would swear at them. I wouldn't consider the smaller ones, regardless of Buehler intent. Some of the larger ones I might depending on how well built. Frankly, a bit of a crap shoot and I don't want that for a boat I'm intending to cross oceans in.

Your point is well taken, as George Buehler only sold plans of his designs to be built by whomever, even backyard builders who George encouraged. I still think the DD is a fine design. I had Seahorse Marine in mind, that still produces DDs. There is also a fine yard in Turkey that has produced some. Yes, a buyer needs due diligence here, a good point.

 

[twistedtree]

I have just never found following seas to be an issue in any boat that I've had, so maybe I've just gotten lucky?


So maybe the real question here is why the vessel in questions (an NP 45?) is poor in following seas, no what's special about a KK. In my experience the KK is just one of many (most) boats that are fine in following seas, and that the rudder size is far more important than the hull shape.

 

[sunchaser]

So maybe the real question here is why the vessel in questions (an NP 45?) is poor in following seas, no what's special about a KK.

+1

 

[dirtdoc1]

We looked for and at boats for 2 years before finally pulling the trigger. We started at looking at CHB 34’s various tri cabins and Europa style vessels before finally deciding we really wanted a Pilothouse. It turns out that the KK42 has the largest pilothouse of any vessel of its length as well as the largest overall living space. Are there issues with the build quality of the KK42? Yes, there are, but at the time, whilst looking at NPT 42’s and 43’s, and Nordhavn 40’s which cost $100,000 more, we decided this was the right vessel for us. And we still do. Yes, I curse some of it’s issues, but by and large she is exactly the vessel we want.

Jim

What type of build quality issues does she have?

 

[Donsan]

What type of build quality issues does she have?

If you want to know more about the build quality of early KK 42's, read the blog of one of our posters, Sealife.

https://caribbeansealife.com/about-our-boat/refit/

 

[healhustler]

What type of build quality issues does she have?

Most of what I can add to this is subjective. I’ve torn apart my KK Manatee 36 right down to the bones. I can’t say I’ve found actual signs of compromises in quality, but I sure have found myself scratching my head about some of the decisions or practices involved with the crews during construction.

Example 1. The 30 year old Saloon windows were leaking, leading to water damage of cabinetry below. When I rebuilt the cabinetry, I saw that the hidden sub-framing was solid teak, but in some areas where a custom fit might have been needed, the trimming on the starboard side was done with a knife or machete. Port side was machine cut. Someone was in a hurry.

Example 2. In the pilothouse roof rebuild project, I ground out 110 lb’s of stone-hard black glue that was slapped in there to adhere inner & outer panels together for a nice rigid structure, but less than 30% of the glue was touching both panels. The consequence after a couple of decades was a overweight roof with a negative crown, promoting even heavier water collection. This could be a real surprise when in northern climates, you step out of your pilothouse during a 10 degree roll and get dowsed by the cascade of melted ice water.

Example 3: The fiberglass at the built-in seat at the front of the pilothouse is too thin. When standing on it to clean the windshield, it creeks and cracks. The edges are full of hairline cracks. The glass is too thin and it was surely that way to begin with. Easy enough fix, yes, but still.

Example 4: Generator location design terrible! The genset kits were originally placed in a machinery space below the galley. That location made maintenance on most everything else in that space a miserable experience. We moved our genset to a new hatch cut in the veranda. That one change was like moving every maintenance item on the boat. One can stand and work on both sides of the generator and everything that was once blocked by the original configuration below the galley is now easily reached, even for a stiff old guy like me. The almost unnoticeable waterline squat was easily offset by moving batteries. KK could probably have done the same change in-house for another $200.

Krogen’s were semi-custom boats, all of which probably have as many individual issues as they do individual customizations.

 

[dirtdoc1]

Most of what I can add to this is subjective. I’ve torn apart my KK Manatee 36 right down to the bones. I can’t say I’ve found actual signs of compromises in quality, but I sure have found myself scratching my head about some of the decisions or practices involved with the crews during construction.

Example 1. The 30 year old Saloon windows were leaking, leading to water damage of cabinetry below. When I rebuilt the cabinetry, I saw that the hidden sub-framing was solid teak, but in some areas where a custom fit might have been needed, the trimming on the starboard side was done with a knife or machete. Port side was machine cut. Someone was in a hurry.

Example 2. In the pilothouse roof rebuild project, I ground out 110 lb’s of stone-hard black glue that was slapped in there to adhere inner & outer panels together for a nice rigid structure, but less than 30% of the glue was touching both panels. The consequence after a couple of decades was a overweight roof with a negative crown, promoting even heavier water collection. This could be a real surprise when in northern climates, you step out of your pilothouse during a 10 degree roll and get dowsed by the cascade of melted ice water.

Example 3: The fiberglass at the built-in seat at the front of the pilothouse is too thin. When standing on it to clean the windshield, it creeks and cracks. The edges are full of hairline cracks. The glass is too thin and it was surely that way to begin with. Easy enough fix, yes, but still.

Example 4: Generator location design terrible! The genset kits were originally placed in a machinery space below the galley. That location made maintenance on most everything else in that space a miserable experience. We moved our genset to a new hatch cut in the veranda. That one change was like moving every maintenance item on the boat. One can stand and work on both sides of the generator and everything that was once blocked by the original configuration below the galley is now easily reached, even for a stiff old guy like me. The almost unnoticeable waterline squat was easily offset by moving batteries. KK could probably have done the same change in-house for another $200.

Krogen’s were semi-custom boats, all of which probably have as many individual issues as they do individual customizations.

I've noticed that under the covers, the Chinese factories don't bother to do very clean work. There are a few things that I've scratched my head about with my NP45 too. Mostly with woodworking. Things that could have been done better with very little effort. The inside of closets, weird cuts, sloppy fit. On the outside the woodwork is beautiful but look behind or inside some cabinets and it's as if someone was in a hurry to get home.

 

[Julsburd]

Having just gone through the trawler search it becomes a matter of compromise. What is important to you and what are you willing to pay for. We liked Krogens but found that we would have had to get one 10-15 years older to stay in our budget and we just couldn’t justify that. Now that we’ve secured insurance and financing on our Selene I am thankful we didn’t have to go through that on a boat that was 10 years older. Lots of complications. We have a boat that’s probably more than we will need cruising wise but we love the layout and attention to detail that was put into our Selene.

 

[lipets]

There are about 600 Krogens out there .

FYI their site says they build 10-12 a year since 1991


that math is about 300 not 600

 

[healhustler]

FYI their site says they build 10-12 a year since 1991


that math is about 300 not 600

Nevertheless, hull number 600 was built, and each one is accounted for.

 

[lipets]

So their China website is wrong I suppose


How would you know what's accounted for by the way?

 

[sunchaser]

Back to post #1. A few years ago we were seriously considering a new build Nordhavn 52. We speced the boat, got the prices and schedule. We talked to KK about a new build 52 and received a number that was 20% higher than the N52. Yes, apples to oranges in many respects but that was an interesting experience.

We seriously considered other blue water new builds as well but our window for long offshore passages was slowly closing so we decided our DeFever would work fine for our future cruising plans.

So for you Dirt Doc, be 100% sure you are up to the time commitment and rigors that serious blue water cruising involves. More than traversing the Pacific Coast which hundreds of TF boats can and do quite nicely. Given your concerns about your current boat's potential shortcomings in your hands you may want to engage a truly qualified yacht delivery captain to assess your vessel's real world behavior and compare it to the myriad of other vessels in similar conditions.

The question may well not be "are KKs over priced (they are not)" but rather are you up to the task? Many in fact most boaters are not. With the end result being lots of very nice blue water built boats cruising locales well beneath their capability. In reality the blue water builders are selling the dream, which I personally think is great if you've got the excess cash.