Learned a lesson ....

[dwhatty]

This thread sort of makes me happy/grateful that all we normally have to do is pick up our mooring, with an occasional foray to a yacht club float or fuel float. On the other hand, think of all the boat/line handling practice we are missing out on. Hope that we never have to inhabit a marina.

 

[Besslb]

We always run midship springs forward and aft everywhere we go. Winds change, currents change, boat wakes arrive from different directions, and having springs running both ways is the only way to go in my book.

Us too, sort of. We have full length floating finger on one side. We're 35' long. I have a 50ft line that I use both directions. It's always tied bitter end to the end of the boat that is going into the slip first. I first use it to stop the forward movement and keep SD off the BIG steel piling at the far inside of our silp, down to the dock to a cleat (which is about midship) in a cleat hitch then back up to the other end of the boat. Sprung both directions when at dock. We also have a spring on a piling on the non-finger pier side to midship.

 

[Peter B]

And there it is! My spring line runs forward. Rigging an addition spring line running aft may be just the ticket. Thank youuuuu.

Coming in on this a bit late Darren, but I know where you are coming from. Our boat's virtually identical to yours. In the end we worked out a good system a bit like Marin outlined, but as well as having bow and stern spring lines, which are easier to get set initially as they are longer than ones stern and bow lines, we also have a midships short spring line, permanently fixed to the dock amidships, but with a longer leader tied to its loop, and we have that set up easy for me to reach out the pilot door and grab, because we have it raised a bit like Marin's idea. However, I found another way which is less visible, and maybe Mark might like to look into this? I used just an old car aerial, set into a cheap plastic VHF type aerial base, and that screwed to the edge of the dock. Then I placed one stretchy hook, upside down, epoxied over the tip of the aerial forming a hook which then holds the looped end of the leader line at easy hand's reach. The beauty of this is when not needed it can be telescoped down and unlocked and laid flat on the dock, taking up only about 1 foot of space, so who could object to that? You might be able to see it in this pic....

 

[FlyWright]

Holy Crosswinds, PG! My boat is a block from yours and we were watching a pair of beavers play in the dead calm fairway yesterday! You guys really gotta try us out for size. A guy just moved his ski boat temporarily into the slip next door, but I think it's still available for rent.

I've got two extra fenders you're welcome to borrow anytime. They are currently tied to the port and stbd sides of my slip, but they're up near the bow and provide no protection for me. They're extras. Take 'em anytime you want. They're just a short dingy ride away.

 

[Peter B]

Sorry, sort of left out the main point of my post above - that being that the midships spring, being short, but with a leader, if grabbed and rapidly pulled aboard, and the loop set over the cleat, the boat is then not going anywhere. It also makes the manoeuvre Marin outlined even easier, because as the line is attached to both boat and dock midships, a slow ahead in reverse pulls the stern in, (just in case the SO missed getting her spring on), and slow ahead pulls the bow in, so I can then pop her in neutral and secure the bow line. Also great for if coming in single-handing...

 

[Gulf Comanche]

psneeld:
I watched your video and wondered how those docks can stand up to that water flow. Do you have to lock your prop shaft in place so it doesn't spin continuously? My only experience with water flow of any magnitude was this:
Lake Peigneur: The Swirling Vortex of Doom • Damn Interesting
I was driving through the little town of Delcambre, LA, when the Texaco drilling rig punched a hole in the roof of the salt mine. Bayou Delcambre was running backwards when I crossed the bridge, no one knew what was going on until news reports of Texaco's fubar.
Mike
Baton Rouge

 

[markpierce]

Peter, that's a clever and somewhat stealthy device. With relatively low freeboard, the aerial wouldn't need to be longer than a couple of feet to be handy for the Coot.

 

[FlyWright]

psneeld:
I watched your video and wondered how those docks can stand up to that water flow. Do you have to lock your prop shaft in place so it doesn't spin continuously? My only experience with water flow of any magnitude was this:
Lake Peigneur: The Swirling Vortex of Doom • Damn Interesting
I was driving through the little town of Delcambre, LA, when the Texaco drilling rig punched a hole in the roof of the salt mine. Bayou Delcambre was running backwards when I crossed the bridge, no one knew what was going on until news reports of Texaco's fubar.
Mike
Baton Rouge

Fascinating! I never heard of this event before reading your post. Here's a video of the devastation.

Lake Peigneur sinkhole disaster - YouTube

 

[Pineapple Girl]

Holy Crosswinds, PG! My boat is a block from yours and we were watching a pair of beavers play in the dead calm fairway yesterday! You guys really gotta try us out for size. A guy just moved his ski boat temporarily into the slip next door, but I think it's still available for rent.

I've got two extra fenders you're welcome to borrow anytime. They are currently tied to the port and stbd sides of my slip, but they're up near the bow and provide no protection for me. They're extras. Take 'em anytime you want. They're just a short dingy ride away.

We're thinking of toodling through your marina Saturday and eye balling the height. Or moving to the old side of where we are, if any of the slips are tall enough. We are at the very end of P dock so probably the only slip on that dock affected by not just the current of the river running through there but the wind as well (you could see the wind line just past our slip. Fab.). We'll see how it is at "slack" water. It HAS to be better. There is always SOME current in there from the river but it should be a lot less. We may take you up on the fender offer!

 

[psneeld]

psneeld:
I watched your video and wondered how those docks can stand up to that water flow. Do you have to lock your prop shaft in place so it doesn't spin continuously? My only experience with water flow of any magnitude was this:
Lake Peigneur: The Swirling Vortex of Doom • Damn Interesting
I was driving through the little town of Delcambre, LA, when the Texaco drilling rig punched a hole in the roof of the salt mine. Bayou Delcambre was running backwards when I crossed the bridge, no one knew what was going on until news reports of Texaco's fubar.
Mike
Baton Rouge

it's not strong enough to spin props usually...maybe once and awhile they may turn a bit...

the docks seem to handle the flow...they are built that way...just don't fall off them!

There have been a few jet skis and even a 13 boston whaler that have been rolled under them in the last few years.

 

[Per]

Try backing a single screw into your slip singlehanded with this current..

TiderippingII-1.mp4 video by psneeld - Photobucket

why would that guy park his powerboat stern up into that current?

curious to hear where this is recorded and how long does the current like this last? surely its not 24/7?

 

[psneeld]

why would that guy park his powerboat stern up into that current?

curious to hear where this is recorded and how long does the current like this last? surely its not 24/7?

because in a few hours the current reverses...so people dock which ever way is convenient to board their boat.

it's at Avalon Marine Center in Avalon, NJ. the current is like that 4 times a day for a couple hours for about 2 weeks a month...the other 2 weeks it's about half as strong.

it's where you learn to dock your boat or where you learn to crash your boat... sheep need not apply...

 

[BruceK]

Try backing a single screw into your slip singlehanded with this current..

TiderippingII-1.mp4 video by psneeld - Photobucket

No wonder the marina is mostly vacant! The bottom of the few boats brave enough to use it must stay nice and clean.BruceK

 

[psneeld]

No wonder the marina is mostly vacant! The bottom of the few boats brave enough to use it must stay nice and clean.BruceK

It's mostly vacant because we are very seasonal here...most boat just barely make it in by Memorial Day and are out a ccouple weeks past Labor Day....remenber what assume means....

We just have better boat drivers here...

 

[Egregious]

Maybe a new thread should be started, because I don't have too much problem getting into a slip. If the wind or current isn't too nasty I back in, and if it is nasty I go bow in. But how do you get off a face dock with a boat in front and behind you when the wind is blowing hard on your beam blowing you against the dock? I have tried springing a bow line aft, and moving forward on that to move the stern out, then releasing it and backing out, but this is easier said than done. Captain and Crew must be in synch.

I agree with Marin's approach to getting in. Midships is key. Marin, what you say about getting out when the current and wind are against you? In a slip it is normally not a problem, I'm talking about when you are a transient in a marina and they left you on the face between two 70 foot yachts with anchors more expensive than your vessel!

 

[djones44]

Don't know if you have this already or can rig one on your dock, but we learned a long time ago to rig a permanent midships spring line on our dock for when we come in and the wind wants to push us to the other side of the slip (which is most of the time with our slip orientation).

A pleasure to be learning from you again, Marin. More seaplane operations .

 

[Marin]

But how do you get off a face dock with a boat in front and behind you when the wind is blowing hard on your beam blowing you against the dock?

Here's whart we do and it works every time. After removing the fore and aft springs, we unfasten the bow line and take it around a cleat or the bullrail next to the bow. One of us, usually my wife, stands on the foredeck at the rail and takes the bitter end of the bow line and holds us in place. The other person removes the stern line and gets aboard. The engines are already running, everything's ready to go.

My wife is also holding one of our really big fenders that we carry for just this maneuver so it is in place where she thinks the bow might contact the dock. She's holding it rather than tying it off so she can move it quickly if necessary

I put the wheel hard over toward the dock, the dockside transmission in reverse and the ourboard transmission in forward. The combination of the combined propwalk of both props and the thrust of the outboard prop against the hard-over rudder behind it moves the stern out quite smartly. But the bow can't go anywhere, forward or backwards, because of the bow line my wife is holding. There is little fore or aft force anyway becasue the two props are cancelling each other out in terms of moving forward or backwards. So it's not like she has to hold onto the bowline with all her strength to keep the boat from moving forward or backwards.

Meanwhile with her other hand she positions the fat fender betrwen the bow and the dock since the bow will be pivoting in as the stern pivots out. So the end result is the bow stays put while the stern swings out like a gate on a hinge.

I always swing the stern out more than it looks like I need because as soon as you start backing out the wind is going to push that bow in toward the dock and I don't want it to swing down and hit the boat behind us as we back clear. So I estimate I swing the stern out about 60 or 70 degrees before tellng my wife to "cast off" and backing away.

The windier it is the more power we'll use.

Once the stern has swung out as far as I want it I put both transmissions in reverse, center the rudder and back out, quickly if necessary. My wife slacks off on the bow line, picks up the line where it exits the hawse, lets the bitter end go and pulls the whole line in around the cleat or bullrail and back on board.

And that's it. We're well clear of the dock and we've used no more space than the length of our boat to do it.

We use this method to get off a dock every time unless we're at the end of the dock and can back or go forward straight off the end. We don't need anyone to push us off, which in any kind of wind never works anyway. We do it all ourselves under our own control. And since we have the two props opposing each other's thrust, I don't believe the side of our bow has ever actually come in and pushed the fender up against the dock.

We've done this in zero wind and in a 15 knot crosswind. We've used the technique when there was two feet between our pulpit and the boat in front of us and four feet between the boat behind us and our swim-step mounted dinghy.

This maneuver works equally well with a single engine boat. The only difference will be that without the two props counteracting each other's thrust all the force against the bow line will be forward. So the person holding it will probably have to hold it more tightly. And the bow probably will come in and contact the dock so that fat fender will be important. Otherwise the maneuver is identical to what we do.

 

[markpierce]

Try backing a single screw into your slip singlehanded with this current..

TiderippingII-1.mp4 video by psneeld - Photobucket

That's a poor excuse for a marina. I'll make a secondary nomination for the Petaluma, CA marina. One needs to give a four-hour notice to the lift bridge to enter/exit the marina during working hours between Monday and Thursday. And a much earlier notice during other times. And then there is the shoaling in many San Francisco Bay Area marinas. Still, I'm sure you can come up with worse scenarios.

 

[djones44]

That's a poor excuse for a marina. I'll make a secondary nomination for the Petaluma, CA marina. One needs to give a four-hour notice to the lift bridge to enter/exit the marina during working hours between Monday and Thursday. And a much earlier notice during other times. And then there is the shoaling in many San Francisco Bay Area marinas. Still, I'm sure you can come up with worse scenarios.

The Fraser River in Vancouver comes to mind. Crabbing down between two floats, with a spring freshet across your beam - never again with a single screw on a little spade rudder. And logs that go bump under your hull at random times - hard to enjoy that after a while.

 

[psneeld]

That's a poor excuse for a marina. I'll make a secondary nomination for the Petaluma, CA marina. One needs to give a four-hour notice to the lift bridge to enter/exit the marina during working hours between Monday and Thursday. And a much earlier notice during other times. And then there is the shoaling in many San Francisco Bay Area marinas. Still, I'm sure you can come up with worse scenarios.

Like there's marina's wherever a person would like??? Things like population, bridges, wetlands, etc...etc all affect where they can be or be built...

Plus along the Atlantic seaboard, you get just in from an inlet and your gonna have some current.

Marinas that build current breaks fill in too quick to keep up with the dredging.

Plus what's the big deal with the current???? Makes going to other marinas a snap!

 

[Peter B]

This maneuver works equally well with a single engine boat. The only difference will be that without the two props counteracting each other's thrust all the force against the bow line will be forward. So the person holding it will probably have to hold it more tightly. And the bow probably will come in and contact the dock so that fat fender will be important. Otherwise the maneuver is identical to what we do.

Roger that, it works well, I can vouch for it, and ours is a single. We often have to do this to get off our fuel wharf which is always a blow-on situation. However, that point about the boat wanting to move forward more if a single seems not to be the case, for reasons I have not actually fully worked out. As I usually do the whole thing on the forward line and do the driving myself, ducking in and out the pilot door, I have often found even tho the fender is in place, the bow does not even kiss the dock when the stern is swinging out, yet hardly moved forward along the dock at all, and there appears to be remarkably little tension on the for'd line as well. I have even considered trying it without bothering with the for'd line at all. One fender is always in that position when we dock, so no problem there, either.
I'm not suggesting you don't use the forward line, but in our case I suspect prop-wash from the hard-over rudder is being pushed in under the dock, hitting mother earth at the back, as it is not a free-floating dock, and then enough bouncing back to gently also push the bow any from the edge of the dock. Anyone else got a better theory..?

 

[psneeld]

Maybe a new thread should be started, because I don't have too much problem getting into a slip. If the wind or current isn't too nasty I back in, and if it is nasty I go bow in. But how do you get off a face dock with a boat in front and behind you when the wind is blowing hard on your beam blowing you against the dock? I have tried springing a bow line aft, and moving forward on that to move the stern out, then releasing it and backing out, but this is easier said than done. Captain and Crew must be in synch.

I agree with Marin's approach to getting in. Midships is key. Marin, what you say about getting out when the current and wind are against you? In a slip it is normally not a problem, I'm talking about when you are a transient in a marina and they left you on the face between two 70 foot yachts with anchors more expensive than your vessel!

Yes the crew or single hander must be in synch and be quick. The common method is to loop the line around a cleat like Marin discussed.

You can also use the same method going astern if your swim platform isn't too squared off or long or flimsy. Your quarter stays closer to the dock and you can more easily get to you line if it snags.

The worst conditions I've sprung off in is about 40 steady gusting 60 in a 26 foot single screw lobster type boat (singlehanded)...pretty exciting...but it can be done...

 

[psneeld]

Roger that, it works well, I can vouch for it, and ours is a single. We often have to do this to get off our fuel wharf which is always a blow-on situation. However, that point about the boat wanting to move forward more if a single seems not to be the case, for reasons I have not actually fully worked out. As I usually do the whole thing on the forward line and do the driving myself, ducking in and out the pilot door, I have often found even tho the fender is in place, the bow does not even kiss the dock when the stern is swinging out, yet hardly moved forward along the dock at all, and there appears to be remarkably little tension on the for'd line as well. I have even considered trying it without bothering with the for'd line at all. One fender is always in that position when we dock, so no problem there, either.

you must have different wind down there...can we have some of it please!

more than 10 knots up here and that spring gets pretty tight on every boat I have ever done it with...yes it can be a little hazardous for the line handler.

 

[Marin]

I should have included in my previous explanation of pivoting the boat backwards off a dock that most of the time we do this at idle. The two props generate enough propwalk that when combined with the thrust of the prop in forward against the rudder idle power is all that's needed to move the stern out pretty quickly even against a lightish breeze. Only when the wind is stronger does it take more power to pivot the boat.

 

[JanisK]

He also taught us a never-fail, works the first time method of picking up a mooring buoy that we have used ever since, but that's another subject.

Marin if you could elaborate on this it would be great. I've never been able to pick up a mooring buoy easily. I over run them. miss them, cant quite reach them etc etc.

 

[Marin]

It's success is dependent on the freeboard of your boat. It works great on our GB. On a boat with a higher freeboard aft it may be difficult or impossible.

Around here the mooring buoys are round with a big ring on the end of a chain that goes down through the buoy. So the ring is on top and usually standing up straight. However this method works if the ring is flopped over on its side, too. We use a mooring line with a stainless thimble spliced into one end and a great big karabiner hooked into the thimble.

When we're ready to pick up a buoy one of us lays out the line along the side deck and goes back with the karabiner end and opens the boarding gate in the rail on the starboard side of the boat and kneels down on the deck. Whoever's driving aligns the boat with the buoy heading upwind or upcurrent, whichever is the strongest.

As the boat idles toward the buoy the helmsperson shifts to neutral as the boat approaches the buoy. We take the buoy down the starboard side of the hull. Most of the buoys here are such that they won't scratch the boat if they touch the hull although usually we can take the buoy down the hull with a foot or so between them.

As the buoy approaches the person kneeling on the deck next to the boarding gate they simply reach out and whack the gate on the karabiner against the ring on the buoy. The karabiner gate springs open and clips the carabiner to the ring. The person at the helm steps out the door, picks up the bitter end of the mooring line, walks forward and pulls the end of the line in through the starboard bow hawse. By this time the boat has stopped moving and may even start to drift back in the wind or current, so it's an easy matter to pull the line in through the hawse and pull the boat back until the buoy is where you want it in relation to the bow and cleat off the line.

And that's it.

Once we're on the buoy we make some changes to the lines later when I take the dog ashore in the dinghy but that's how we snag the buoy to start with. I've seen people do the same thing off the end of their swimstep if their boat's aft freeboard is too high to simply reach over the side.

The advantage is it's fast, it's easy, and you don't have to try to thread the line through the ring and you're not struggling on the bow with a boathook to snag the ring and haul it up so you can put a line through it. Just whack the karabiner gate on the ring and that's it. The only judgment required is judging the speed of the boat so it's moving slowly when the buoy gets back to the boarding gate. If the buoy looks like it's going to be too far out for my rather short wife to reach I just put the port engine in reverse for a moment and that swings the stern back toward the buoy.

 

[JanisK]

Marin
Thanks it certainly sounds straight forward and I'll give it a go.

 

[Marin]

It's a lot easier to do than it is to describe it.

And be mindful of the mooring buoy's chain or line going down to its anchor or block. You don't want to get it in your prop. The only time we've found that to be a risk is at low tide with a wide tide range so the buoy can move around its anchor a lot and angle its rode out. I try to never put the starboard tranmission in gear when the back of the boat is near the buoy and I try to line things up on the approach so I don't have to use the port prop either. It's mainly a matter of common sense.

And if the person on deck should miss the buoy or the boat drifts off a bit on the approach and the buoy is definitely out of reach we don't try to save it but let the boat drift clear of the buoy, put it in gear and go around and try again.

 

[JanisK]

Sounds like a plan. Thanks again.

 

[CamanoFolks]

Just a couple of comments.
A boat instructor once & only once suggested we use a long bow line lead way aft to get to the dock when the wind was blowing us off. Beware, because with a boat like a Krogen, high bow, lots of flare, that damn line will hold the bow close to the dock, stern out and no amount of power and hard over rudder will move the stern in. But Marin is right in that the midships stern line works like a charm. We use a long line, step off the boat when close to the dock, take a turn around an aft dock cleat and let the line run until the boat is where you want it to be. Works so well that we generally just have guests watch rather than participate.

Another approach is used by the commercial guys and that is to put the bow of the boat against the dock, hard over on the rudder, idle forward and the boat will stay pinned to the dock all day. Casually step off and tie up boat after discussing fuel and fish prices w/ dock mates.