Lets Narrow down a number for Upkeep

[jleonard]

Heck, I don't even know my boat's value.

 

[sunchaser]

My wife knows the answer for all in costs. She frequently reminds me that the bottom line is what counts, not this fantasy of "maintenance" only.

Now, do I really need the Suburban if the boat were gone and those associated costs? Or the costs to buy air fare for family members to join us on boating vacations to far away places. It is called living 101 evaluation for us. Gotta spend it somewhere. Sure beats leaving it to a SIL who would run out and buy a Grady White.

 

[cafesport]

I think the 10% rule comes from long term averages across the whole spectrum of a boat's life from purchase to sale. Maintenance alone might account for 2 to 5 percent of the original purchaser's price. The killer is the market's depreciation. If you keep your boat ten years, the "invisible hand" will no doubt get you and then to add insult to the injury there might even be brokerage fees. Enjoy the 2 percent years while you have them, we're all dead in the long term.

 

[Gordon J]

Bacchus,

I am making no distinction for anticipated versus unanticipated. I only used the example of the paint job, because I bought the boat after thorough inspection and surveys. I knew approximately what the boat would be worth if in pristine condition and backed out of that, what it would cost me to get the boat to that condition. I consider the paint job part of the acquisition cost.

When people ask a general question about maintenance costs, they can easily get a quote for dockage and insurance. Those are knowable in advance. I can anticipate at 1000 hours I will have to have the valves adjusted. Valve adjustment is an anticipated expense, but still maintenance. I know how much fuel costs, and so can derive fuel expense from figuring out how I plan to use the boat. But I don't think fuel is maintenance. But I consider fuel additive to be maintenance. Even depreciation is knowable, although market conditions figure heavily. And of course, if one poorly maintains the boat, the depreciation will be greater.

I would not be surprised if the cafesport's observation is correct, that the 10% number comes from the total cost of ownership...but, that 10% number is often quoted for maintenance/upkeep.

 

[JLD]

As a newbie, I can appreciate what Gordon is trying to do. Trying to estimate maintenance cost is part of deciding how much money I can put into a boat. Do I buy a less expensive boat for cash, or can I buy a more expensive boat with a combination of cash/boat loan. Bottom line is that, after purchase, I would have a monthly budget for the boat that would need to include any loan amount as well as the storage and upkeep of the boat (fuel would be funded elsewhere).

Purchase price,and state taxes are known; moorage, insurance, haul out/bottom paint, and property tax (if applicable) can also be reasonably estimated. The maintenance costs (planned and unplanned) is more of a wild card. What complicates this further is that when looking at used boats (15-year old, in my case), is seems that some owners who are selling their boats have keep up with upkeep and updating of their vessels, while other owners seem to have done minimal upkeep (maybe very little aside from engine maintenance) on their boats.

So, I find myself struggling in part in trying to estimate these costs:
- what are the normal maintenance cost for a 315 hp or 370 hp Yanmar? What if I do the oil and impeller changes myself?
- what would it cost to have a mechanic make a yearly check of the boat
- what is the life expectancy of a generator? how much for a rebuild? how much to replace?
- what is the life expectancy of an AC unit? How much to repair/replace?
- when would you reasonable expect to have to replace an autopilot? how much to do so?
- would I expect to replace an old fridge or stove?

Thus, rather than trying to calculate a % of the sales price of the boat, I'm trying to calculate the cost of repairing/replacing stuff and estimating when this might have to be done.

This of course, doesn't even include those big ticket items that we hope never occurs - need to rebuild/replace the engine or having to replace a leaking fuel tank!

Jim

 

[Tom.B]

Heck, I don't even know my boat's value.

PRICELESS!

 

[Gordon J]

you have a partial answer

[QUOTE Percentage of boat cost/value is meaningless!![/QUOTE]

So, you know the actual expenses and can back out the fixed costs, i.e. taxes. insurance, dockage, etc. Divided that by your boat's value and you probably arrive at a 1% - 2% figure (if I am estimating correctly the value of your boat). I don't argue that using boat value is meaningless, but yet that is what prospective buyers are often told.

Many unexperienced folks don't know about things like toilet repairs, or zinc costs or even how much it will cost to bottom paint a boat. I think all numbers that prospective owners are given are just ways to help them understand the future financial commitment. Or at least the potential. We on this forum have actual histories not guesses about some unknowable future.

The question is, how do we quantify those potentials so that new owners have some idea. This whole idea started after seeing the 10% figure and thinking that had to be wrong.

 

[BandB]

The question is, how do we quantify those potentials so that new owners have some idea. This whole idea started after seeing the 10% figure and thinking that had to be wrong.

Not with simple formulas just tossed out, that is for sure. They have to actually do some homework, look at the individual elements of costs, talk to some people in detail. If they want quick and easy answers just pulled out of the air, then that's what they'll get.

The 10% number, as stated often before, was a number tossed out representing all annual costs of operating a new boat and as used primarily for larger boats or charters, it included cost of crew as well for those.

 

[sunchaser]

As a newbie, I can appreciate what Gordon is trying to do. Trying to estimate maintenance cost is part of deciding how much money I can put into a boat. Do I buy a less expensive boat for cash, or can I buy a more expensive boat with a combination of cash/boat loan. Bottom line is that, after purchase, I would have a monthly budget for the boat that would need to include any loan amount as well as the storage and upkeep of the boat (fuel would be funded elsewhere).

Purchase price,and state taxes are known; moorage, insurance, haul out/bottom paint, and property tax (if applicable) can also be reasonably estimated. The maintenance costs (planned and unplanned) is more of a wild card. What complicates this further is that when looking at used boats (15-year old, in my case), is seems that some owners who are selling their boats have keep up with upkeep and updating of their vessels, while other owners seem to have done minimal upkeep (maybe very little aside from engine maintenance) on their boats.

So, I find myself struggling in part in trying to estimate these costs:
- what are the normal maintenance cost for a 315 hp or 370 hp Yanmar? What if I do the oil and impeller changes myself?
- what would it cost to have a mechanic make a yearly check of the boat
- what is the life expectancy of a generator? how much for a rebuild? how much to replace?
- what is the life expectancy of an AC unit? How much to repair/replace?
- when would you reasonable expect to have to replace an autopilot? how much to do so?
- would I expect to replace an old fridge or stove?

Thus, rather than trying to calculate a % of the sales price of the boat, I'm trying to calculate the cost of repairing/replacing stuff and estimating when this might have to be done.

This of course, doesn't even include those big ticket items that we hope never occurs - need to rebuild/replace the engine or having to replace a leaking fuel tank!

Jim

It depends a lot on prior owner care, engines, peripheral equipment and how much DIY you can do correctly. Knowing the tasks in front of you is a far bigger part of the cost than it would seem. In other words, marine related education or lack thereof is a cost factor.

 

[sbu22]

No way to answer meaningfully. I have an old boat with (I think) about all the depreciation wrung out of her. I do a lot of work myself - that's worth a nickel an hour plus parts. I went 5 years with no significant expense beyond slip fees, fuel, and PM parts & fluids. The new add-ons don't count. On a percentage basis, pretty insignificant.

Then the fuel tanks leaked last year. As FF observed above, that was a pretty big and unanticipated hit that wreaked havoc on the "averages."

How about an engine and/or a tranny?

From my flying days, I learned about maintenance reserve. With planes, there is a documented and required "time between overhaul" that must be observed. So you pretty much know what each run hour (at least for engines and props) subtracts from equipment life. Overhaul cost/TBO gives you a cost per hour of operation or what you need to set aside for when the time comes.

Not having anything like that to go on, I have arbtrarily set $40/run hour as a maintenance reserve for my boat. Treat it just like an HSA. Rather painless after you get in the groove. Takes some of the sting out of the "aw, crap!" moments.

But, I have no idea what a good average might be. Based on the experience of the sportfisher down the pier who blew a head on a 1200 horse Mann, my maintenance reserve wouldn't pay the sales tax on that repair.

 

[Woodland Hills]

For $400k I can buy a 70' cockpit Hatteras, a 67' Burger or a 42' Hatteras LRC. Will they have the same maintenance requirements for the same value?

 

[BandB]

For $400k I can buy a 70' cockpit Hatteras, a 67' Burger or a 42' Hatteras LRC. Will they have the same maintenance requirements for the same value?

No. Either one could be the most or least, all depending on age and condition.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Welcome aboard.

 

[Woodland Hills]

No. Either one could be the most or least, all depending on age and condition.

So estimating maintenance expenses based upon a percent of value is not very useful for planning purposes? I'm trying to get a handle on what my yearly spending would be......

I am thinking that a formula based on displacement, number of cylinders and age might be better.

 

[CPseudonym]

For purposes of a ballpark estimate how about 15% of purchased price for the first two years? That should cover your buns for any differed maintenance and inevitable upgrades and changes you do the first two years.

You'll have the best looking boat at the marina at worst case. Lotsa unused maintenance money to carry over to another line item of the budget best case.

 

[markpierce]

Support your local boatyard and its employees!

 

[AusCan]

My costs worked out to just over 10% during almost 5 years, although that included re-powering, replacing rigging, replacing windlass, replacing fuel tanks, replacing batteries, a big rewiring job, plus the normal standard servicing.

Its tough to put an exact number on it, as any big repair often included in some form of improvement at the same time. It would have been much higher if I hadn't done almost all of the work myself.

Overall, the maintenance costs have been about what I expected over the first 5 years. I expect the costs to reduce to about 5% of purchase price over the next few years as most of the big ticket items have been taken care of.

 

[klee wyck]

How about some algebra that includes the age of the boat and the fact that complexity and cost of maintaining the systems generally increases with increases in length?

Maintenance cost= ($150xLOA )[1+0.05(YR-6)]
where LOA is overall length and YR is age in years

i.e, take overall length times $150 for the base 6 yr old boat and you have the base case. If the boat is younger than 6 years it is less than this and if it is older than this it is more. A 26 year old boat may be twice the maintenance cost of a six year old boat and a brand new boat would be 30% less than a 6 year old boat. (you still need zincs , bottom work, normal service interval maintenance etc).

Example 26 year old 40 foot boat is (150x40)[1+(.05x20)]=
$6000x2=$12000

This for maintenance, repair, rebuild, replace and not for upgrade, moorage, fuel, insurance etc.

 

[Britannia]

How about some algebra that includes the age of the boat and the fact that complexity and cost of maintaining the systems generally increases with increases in length?

Maintenance cost= ($150xLOA )[1+0.05(YR-6)]
where LOA is overall length and YR is age in years

i.e, take overall length times $150 for the base 6 yr old boat and you have the base case. If the boat is younger than 6 years it is less than this and if it is older than this it is more. A 26 year old boat may be twice the maintenance cost of a six year old boat and a brand new boat would be 30% less than a 6 year old boat. (you still need zincs , bottom work, normal service interval maintenance etc).

Example 26 year old 40 foot boat is (150x40)[1+(.05x20)]=
$6000x2=$12000

This for maintenance, repair, rebuild, replace and not for upgrade, moorage, fuel, insurance etc.

I like it - mostly because it equates roughly to what I am allocating. For my boat (54' and 29 years old) your formula comes to $19,845 per year. I am saving $1,500 a month for maintenance and repairs, which is $18,000 per year. After 2 years I have built up a kitty of $22,000 which is starting to provide a cushion for anything bigger that will inevitably come up.

Richard

 

[BruceK]

There is an expenditure column in my accounting records headed "Boat" but I never enter any expenditures, I just don`t want to know.

 

[Wxx3]

In 4 years, 4500 engine hours and 20k+ nm, I have spent about $6,000, so that's less than 1% per year.
Most of that 6k was $3.5k for the fuel tank repair and new holding tank. The rest is mostly oil.
I've had precious little actually break. My hose this past trip was one of the few things like that.

 

[Wxx3]

P.S.
I think using the boat often and a lot helps keep that number down, as every mechanical part stays lubricated.
Also the boat was extremely well maintained by the two previous owners. So every though she is 29 years old, all the hoses and belts had been replaced before I bought her.
I did replace all the heat exchangers, but did not count that ($750), as the old ones were good and are now spares.

The holding tank and fuel tank are the two big replacements.

However I will replace all the hydraulic hoses at this point.

 

[FF]

The biggest question is how was the purchase used?

Just back from a Carrib cruse? You will have a list of gear that can only be repaired / replaced at a reasonable cost in the USA.

Thats the easy one , a traveling , cruising boat.

The big fear is the dock queen , set up like a house that gets 30 hours unplugged a year , if that.

Bring your wallet as lots will be scrap if your choice is cruising.

If a home cottage afloat is the goal, the dock queen could be a delight.

Parts are fairly cheap, labor is expensive, dumb labor is the most costly..