Life Rafts, necessary for cruising?

[Hippocampus]

Have done multiple salty dawgs rallies. They divide the group into fast, not so fast and slow boats. Occasionally you are in VHF range. You are in Satphone or SSB as there’s a twice daily net to be Chris Parker weather and that channel is monitored. He can relay if necessary. We have the phone numbers of the nearest CG/SAR pre programmed into the Satphone. But given it’s a 1500-2000nm transit for most of it you’re outside helicopter range. Have also done multiple Bermuda races. That usually ~700nm of travel. You leave in inverse order of expected speed. In spite of that it’s common to do the whole transit and see no one. So if you didn’t bring it with you you ain’t got it applies.
However buddy boating between the islands once in the Caribbean you always have your buddy in sight. Have had occasion when that was very helpful to my buddy as he had mechanical issues. Commonly like to buddy boat with one other boat crewed by friends. On a few occasions have done it 2-3 boats together. If only to know someone’s dinghy engine will work or have a spare you need or can give to them. Disagree think buddy boating is fun and adds safety. Especially when coastal/inter island.
Offshore you’re most likely to be rescued by your own boat. But if the boat goes down if your in a fleet someone close will turn and get you out of your raft. So in both situations thing it adds safety.
Also for areas where there’s pirates think it’s a good idea. For instance the trip from Grenada to Trinidad or if going to the ABCs.

 

[Nordlys]

Secondary use for a life raft

We cruise coastally in the PNW and next year to the Central Coast and beyond. In our GB 42 MY we carried a bunch of extra safety equipment because there usually was just my wife and myself on board and in transitioning from bridge to cabin and back we would be out of sight (hopefully not out of mind:lol). This include an Australian offshore rescue sling designed for hoisting a person aboard on a high freeboard sail boat. (SOS Marine recovery Ladder). Our stern grid is not accessible easily due to carrying a large dinghy on Davits. This worked as a ladder if one was conscious and if not, the unconscious person could be hoisted by one person. Which posed the quandary—how does “one person “ manage boat and get to water level to put the unconscious person into the sling?”. For this we carried an Aviation (float plane) life raft in a valise. As well as the built in rope we extended it with a throw bag rope. In the case of MOB—the onboard person would stop the boat—attach the valise rope and throw it overboard giving a large water level platform on about a 100 ft of rope—the captain could then tow it with the boat and make a life sling looping maneuver (think: picking up a downed skier with the tow line to restart skiing). Quick and gives the conscious MOB a chance to climb out of our cold waters while the captain maneuvers closer. If MOB is unconscious then the Captain can get close and then get down on the raft and hopefully drag the person onto the raft for further rescue.

Last item we had for rough waters were inflatable life jackets with PLB’s in the collar linked to our onboard nav system. If the PLB got more than 100 feet from the boat (think: fell over in the blind spot while transiting decks) then an alarm would go off through the VHF notifying the captain and marking the location as well as any other boat in VHF range.

We now have a GB 46 Europa with much better access to sea level on the rear grid. Still have the Life raft and the PLB’s. And less exposure to falling off the boat when transiting decks.

A bit long winded but here is one more rationale for carrying a valise life raft. Of course if we are sinking then all the points everyone else brought up deserve consideration.

 

[CarlF]

I carry an inexpensive coastal life raft and Gumby suits. If I could only have one, I’d choose the Gumby suits. There are too many stories of life rafts blowing away, inflating upside down, or people not making it from boat to raft.

Boarding a life raft from the deck is usually impossible. You have to jump in the water first. and then board. Something that older people often have trouble doing.

Except in the coldest waters a Gumby suit will keep you alive and safe for the 4 hours it usually takes to get a chopper overhead. If beyond chopper range, the CG sends a jet to locate you and redirects a ship. So maybe 12 hours. The days of sitting in your raft fishing with a string (or even needing drinking water) are long gone.

Also carry an InReach or other device that provides two way communication. Over 90% of EPIRB activations are false alarms. The CG will spend up to 2 hours trying to confirm it’s real before launching a rescue. With an InReach they can confirm by texting you for more details. Rescue starts faster.

The better coastal rafts are quite good these days. Dual tubes, insulated floor. Cheap enough (under $2000) that I just buy a new one every 5 years. Fine even offshore if you aren’t nutty enough to sail high latitudes. I agree with the valise. Keep it out of the sun and dry. Boats rarely sink in less than 30 minutes-plenty of time to get it on deck.

Finally an 8 man raft is dangerously large for a couple. If too lightly loaded, they flip.

 

[MOJO]

We carried a liferaft for 7 years on our 42' ketch in the Caribbean and thankfully never needed it. We did not carry one on MOJO for 20 years and thankfully never needed it! So, it's a personal choice based partly on where you cruise. One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is maintenance/inspections. Inspection stations in the Caribbean are few and far apart so we ended up doing our own annual inspections. While at a marina, we'd take the raft ashore and inflate it using a vacuum cleaner in "blow" mode. Make careful note, including pictures, of how it is folded so you can bet it back in the cannister (or valise). Once inflated, we'd let it sit overnight to make sure there weren't any leaks. We'd also weigh the air tank to make sure it hadn't leaked, check for corrosion of the valve and tank neck and replace the meds, flashlight batteries and whatever else was expired. Since we couldn't get water packets, we didn't replace those. Once we were satisfied that everything was in good shape we'd deflate the raft and repack and update the inspection certification tag. The first time, we also added add'l stuff we thought we'd might need like extra flashlight batteries, fishing line/hooks/lures, filet knife, sunglasses, sunscreen, hats, long sleeve shirts and long pants, ginger mints for motion sickness, etc. As long as it will fit (and is packed so as not to abrade a hole in the raft), you can't have too much of anything! The inspection isn't hard to do and doesn't really require any special skill other than being observant and knowing what to inspect and how. If unsure, pay to have it done once and watch how it's done.

 

[rpackard]

A good question to ask is: Of all the thousands of people on this list, how many have ever had to abandon ship and require a life raft?

I suspect that the danger of driving to the marina may be greater than the danger from having to abandon ship. Falling off the upper deck and breaking your neck may also be a greater risk. Or having a stroke on board. Or having your spouse shoot you for giving unpleasant "commands".

Spend your money and focus on having the boat outfitted so that you will never have a big problem. IMHO your greatest danger is a propane or electrical fire. Spend money to make sure these cannot occur. Buy an emergency Honda gasoline pump to dewater your boat if you get a big leak. Don't rely on battery powered pumps. They won't work once the water covers the batteries.

For the warm waters you intend to explore the value of a life raft would be peace of mind for the admiral and yourself. It is extremely unlikely to ever be needed, and even then, it is unlikely that you can board it if you are past 65.

I have always been in decent physical shape. But past 60, I discovered I could not get myself into our gumby suits even inside our living room. I could not imagine doing that from a moving deck. I gave away our two suits to a younger person.

Gaining knowledge about your vessel, and gaining navigation and seamanship skills are your greatest safety insurance. Unfortuanlty you cannot write a check for these things.

Richard

 

[psneeld]

Not necessarily true about electric bilge pumps not working after the batteries are submerged.

I have salvaged many a boat that has been submerged for hours in salt water, even overnight and the boat came to the surface with the bilge pump still working.

I am not suggesting it's still a great idea to rely on it ir ever let the water get that deep in the boat, I am just clarifying that batteries may or may not help in some emergencies. Don't count them out till they say so.

I also have to say boarding liferafts and donning gumby suits is better a routinely practiced drill and is about physical ability and not an arbitrary age. Tips for doing both while under instruction of a safety at sea trainer can be valuable.

Certainly experience and knowledge are always extraordinarily important in crisis....good equipment can help...just match what you need and can handle.

 

[Hippocampus]

+1 on Safety at Sea. Very much worth doin the SAS course even if not needed for a sailboat race.

 

[rslifkin]

As far as the bilge pumps vs batteries problem, in my mind, you should have enough pump capacity that short of a major hull puncture, you can buy yourself some amount of time to slow the ingress before the water gets high enough to take out the electrical system.

 

[mvweebles]

A good question to ask is: Of all the thousands of people on this list, how many have ever had to abandon ship and require a life raft?

I suspect that the danger of driving to the marina may be greater than the danger from having to abandon ship. Falling off the upper deck and breaking your neck may also be a greater risk. Or having a stroke on board. Or having your spouse shoot you for giving unpleasant "commands".

Spend your money and focus on having the boat outfitted so that you will never have a big problem. IMHO your greatest danger is a propane or electrical fire. Spend money to make sure these cannot occur. Buy an emergency Honda gasoline pump to dewater your boat if you get a big leak. Don't rely on battery powered pumps. They won't work once the water covers the batteries.

For the warm waters you intend to explore the value of a life raft would be peace of mind for the admiral and yourself. It is extremely unlikely to ever be needed, and even then, it is unlikely that you can board it if you are past 65.

I have always been in decent physical shape. But past 60, I discovered I could not get myself into our gumby suits even inside our living room. I could not imagine doing that from a moving deck. I gave away our two suits to a younger person.

Gaining knowledge about your vessel, and gaining navigation and seamanship skills are your greatest safety insurance. Unfortuanlty you cannot write a check for these things.

Richard

Good post. Let's not forget the OPs use-case was Chesapeake, AICW, Bahamas. The reasons for abaondoning ship are collision (holing), fire, or extreme weather. Extreme weather is effectively off-the-table for the OPs use-case. Minimizing risk of electrical fire and increasing pumping for collision are a better use of effort, though if peace of mind means doing both, that's great too. Life-raft is meteorite insurance.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Not all safety at sea has to have anything to do with sailboats/sailboat racing.

Sinking can be from other factors than holing from collision.

Again...assess risks, mitigate risks as best possible or to the degree you are satisfied.

 

[rslifkin]

Not all safety at sea has to have anything to do with sailboats/sailboat racing.

Sinking can be from other factors than holing from collision.

Again...assess risks, mitigate risks as best possible or to the degree you are satisfied.

Outside of situations caused by extremely rough weather, I think most other causes of sinking are easier to mitigate. Mostly because the rate of water ingress you may be dealing with can be estimated and planned for ahead of time for various worst case failures. Collision damage is far less predictable.

 

[Hippocampus]

PS just referring to the need to show you have done the SAS course within the last 24 months in order to be a participant in several of the sailboat races. It’s a common reason for people to do the course.

 

[mvweebles]

Not all safety at sea has to have anything to do with sailboats/sailboat racing.

Sinking can be from other factors than holing from collision.

Again...assess risks, mitigate risks as best possible or to the degree you are satisfied.

In your career as a Sea Tow operator, how many life-raft deployments did you see first-hand (or credible second-hand)? Sounds like you worked in or near the waters to the OPs intended passage.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

In your career as a Sea Tow operator, how many life-raft deployments did you see first-hand (or credible second-hand)? Sounds like you worked in or near the waters to the OPs intended passage.

Peter

Probably none as a Sea Tow guy because if a boat deployed a life raft, usually other vessels or the USCG got there long before me and the raft would have been deflated and brought in so it didn't attract attention. So I may have seen none even though they were deployed.

As a USCG helo pilot, I didn't see near as many liferafts as I should have. For all the people I plucked from the water, few, maybe none came out of a liferaft. Most of the vessel's had or should have had them aboard, so it goes to show you that in many emergency situations, not all gear winds up at your disposal.

In my 4 military survival schools and the dozens of safety at sea lectures I participated in....the one common theme taught was never expect any survival gear you don't have on your person to be available in many emergencies.

 

[AlanT]

In my 4 military survival schools and the dozens of safety at sea lectures I participated in....the one common theme taught was never expect any survival gear you don't have on your person to be available in many emergencies.

Good advice, worth cogitating on that.....

We currently are cruising in protected waters (Puget Sound) but with cold water temperatures, currently 54 Degrees F. I thought long and hard before buying a raft. I have a large, sea capable 14' RIB with VHF and MMSI. However I need batteries to be operational to launch it and it is a complicated process. My Life raft is in a valise. I can heft it out of the deck box. I feel this is what I will turn to in the event of a fire or water ingress. I hope I never see it outside of the valise. But every crew knows what it is, where it is, and what to do if I call for it to be deployed.
~A

 

[greatpapabear]

As has already been said, the only time any life saving equipment is necessary is when you need it.

Many maritime reports indicate that when 'muck' happens, it happens quickly. So knowing where equipment is located, how to access it, and how to use it, is vital.

 

[DNT99611]

I have a number of gumby suits. My personal one has open sleeves and gloves. This lets you have your hands free and makes all tasks much easier. With the gloves on your hands will get wet but the wrist cuffs keep water out of the suit. While wearing the suit I can board a raft as long as the suit is dry. If it fills with water forget about it unless you have strong help and that still might not be enough.

 

[Kiwi.]

Admiral wants to scale down to a 4 person raft ....

Admiral is right. My wife and I have the smallest valise liferaft we could buy. Liferafts depend on people weight to work properly. An eight person liferaft will flip over in high winds with two people on board. Why a valise? We have the same plan as many others to take to the tender (if it's calm enough) and we will want to take the liferaft with us.
No, I haven't had to take to a raft yet, but my wife spent 6 years in the navy spending days in raft training and I've had lots of training including boarding liferafts in heavy seas. Your raft needs to be sized to the number of people and definitely need a very good ladder.

 

[O C Diver]

In my 4 military survival schools and the dozens of safety at sea lectures I participated in....the one common theme taught was never expect any survival gear you don't have on your person to be available in many emergencies.

This is part of the reason my life raft and one of my EPIRBs are mounted on the boat deck with hydrostatic releases. While not a guarantee they will self deploy, statistically there is a greater likelihood of success. If there is enough time, they can also be manually released.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

Coastal rafts do flip pretty easy and really aren't designed for storms. Offshore rafts usually have ballast bags and are designed not to flip even when empty, so I am not sure that body count in a raft no matter the size matters that much for flipping. I have never seen or heard that in print or from others in the field.

No matter what gear you select, how you use it, how available it is, how long it takes to get it or into it... emergencies seem to always find the weakness in your plan. All you can do is try to make sure is that circumstances never add layers of problems on top of an already bad situation. Things like darkness, storms, low visibility, cold, heat, lack of rescue facilities, etc, etc all can complicate going from normal operations to critical emergencies. The more layers of complications, the less chance thing will go as planned.

There is no absolutely safe way to go to sea....history has proven that....all you can do is prepare well past the norms and accept that each and every time on the water something bad can happen, and you can't stop it, or even survive it. Fear is the greatest threat....get over it before you leave the dock.

 

[Hippocampus]

Much wisdom here. We carried a 4 man Winslow when doing blue water. That boat was designed to have a valise stored under the helm seat. There was even a eye ring to tie the inflation release cord to. Even my 100lb wife could deploy it in seconds.
With every new crew and periodically we run
Mob
Life raft
Fire
Med emergency
Drills

Also had laminated sheets posted in plain vision of where each extinguisher was, fire blanket and med store. Also where each thru hull was and all water ingress control equipment.
After embarking day 2 and 5 would individually ask crew after they came off watch questions to make sure they retained drills.

As mom and pop doing coastal we still drill but much less formally. some people don’t realize safety equipment needs servicing if you expect it to work. Even pfds should be inflated by mouth and left for at least 18h to see if they retain their inflation. Found good repacking in St Lucia, Granada and the virgins. In the northeast use LRSE. Always watch them inflate and then climb in. Amazing how little space there is. Even though we are a mom and pop felt the smallest 4 man was necessary. It’s a Crewsaver and light enough for a child to carry and deploy. Still have a stocked ditch bag as well.
Am a member of ocean cruising club. At least in that crowd everyone carries a raft and some are alive as a result. Have always thought coastal is more dangerous than ocean in many respects. In event of collision or fire will deploy the raft. See things differently than PS. Neither of us is right or wrong.

 

[Circumnavigator]

Spend money to make sure these cannot occur. Buy an emergency Honda gasoline pump to dewater your boat if you get a big leak. Don't rely on battery powered pumps. They won't work once the water covers the batteries.
Richard

I am the Leak Trainer for the CCA's Safety at Sea Hands On Training courses -- we will have taught about 500 students this year.


I heartily endorse the thought of having a really big pump, but even the biggest of pumps won't handle a four inch hole. The real key is to find the hole and stop it -- it's 2 P.S.I. at the most. See https://sas.cruisingclub.org/sites/default/files/handouts/ Leak Training PP.pdf



The comment that water over the batteries will stop an electrical pump is incorrect. Seawater is not a great conductor and it will be hours before the batteries run down.


Jim

 

[kthoennes]

The marina launched our boat last week so we spent a chunk of yesterday bringing it back to life. That included inflating and setting up the dinghy. Pretty simple -- 11 foot inflatable. And an inflatable floor. With three separate tube/chambers. And a 4 hp outboard. And two oars. And two seats. And the inflatable keel. And two mooring lines to the stern cleats on the big boat. And had to set up the little compressor. And the air line and inflation fitting and the low pressure gauge to do it properly. And the little gas can. Took an hour by the time we were done. I remember when we first bought the boat we went to Defender for a somewhat smaller inflatable and left it rolled up like a burrito on the bow, thinking if something bad happened we'd roll it open, blow it up and jump in as the boat sank out from under us. Of course now I know that was a ridiculous idea. I'd just echo the posts above that whatever the equipment, it has to be ready to go really fast or you might as well not have it. Now we tow the dinghy for short runs and store it on the bow (inflated, lashed upside down so we can quickly flip it over the bow rail) for long runs, but this season we'll be adding dinghy davits. Has to be fast.

 

[psneeld]

Batteries underwater are intetesting, while they dont go dead right away, or even in a few hours depending on load, etc....

Many are found eith one of the leads completely turned to swiss cheese or gone completely and no longer providing energy. to the boat. Not sure what the reaction is that causrs this but daw it often enough.

Even "serviced" survival gear doesnt guarantee working order in an emergency.

The USCG found out it had a disturbingly high rate of failure despite meticulous preventative maintenance on survival gear back in the late 80's early 90's. Maybe the old " if it aint broke dont fix it" curse. Also make sure your gear is the least complex, most corrosion resistant/protected you can use for the application.

 

[KnotYet]

The higher of your battery bank voltage the faster it will succumb to electrolysis if
U/W. I have worked in and around underwater lighting powered by 120VDC. Literally
standard light bulbs in standard Edison bases immersed in pool water on 120VDC.
It was safe from an electrocution standpoint but eroded the bases in a few hours.

 

[Hippocampus]

So 30 to 40 years ago stuff didn’t work. Think there may have been some advances made in that period of time? Still in actual use you hear 40-50% of pfds don’t inflate and 30-50% of rafts don’t either in actual use when sampled from yachts. How they get these numbers is beyond me. ?recovered bodies? Well the ones who are rescued by the mother boat you wouldn’t get statistics on so sample error. Same with rafts of any type. Less likely to hear about success. Lastly the cruising crowd tends to be a fairly self sufficient bunch and very few sailors or trawler folk actually go offshore or see severe weather. Any statistic. Particularly a linear regression is meaningless unless you have no type one or two error and no biases in collection of datapoints. “uSCG found…..” on what?their vessels? Navy vessels? Commercial vessels? Recreational vessels? What does that statement mean? What type of vessels? Coastal?offshore? What type of “survival gear”?

So the statistics I and ps quoted are very weak. What brand failed the most?how were the failures stored? How old were they? When were they serviced last and by who?

In the absence of hard data you have an opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own.

Took out my coastal raft and looked her and associated literature over. It’s clearly not for heavy weather. But neither is my current boat. Having swamped innumerable dinghies over the years neither are they. Have even flipped one or two just messing around.

Seems we’re comparing apples and oranges. My offshore kit was entirely different. Raft had two tubes two separate inflation mechanisms, double floor, ballast bags, different boarding kit, signaling, water still, med kit etc etc. all beyond the ditch bag.
After watching a cabin cruiser go up in flames under the Jamestown bridge being engulfed in maybe 3-4 minutes I’ll carry a raft. Those folks jumped in the water asap. Water was cold, some were little children. From what I heard some souls were looted. Now this is in a very busy boating area. Other than us maybe 20-25 boats in sight. sARS guys are great suspect in over half of incidents issue is solved or tragedy occurred before SARS shows up. I’ve been in 3 rescues. SARS never showed up for any of them. Last time was >20years ago. Maybe things are different now. I don’t know. On further thought last was 6 years ago in north sound. Got waked and flipped a dinghy. Was in the water around half an hour. Another cruiser spotted me and rescued me. Was crossing the sound to do laundry. “If you didn’t bring it with you you ain’t got it.

 

[psneeld]

The safety gear I was referring to was USCG survival gear in emergencies experienced by USCG flight crews.

Sure, gear has gotten better for the most part, but in all fairness...how much of the stuff we buy these days for any use still has a pretty high failure rate from out of the box to just a few years old?

As far as the USCG not being on scene for many rescues....you bet. When I was operations officer in Cape May NJ for 3 yrs in the mid 90s, we logged nearly 10,000 SAR cases....I would be surprised if the USCG had assets on scene for more than 1/2 and often only as or after others had primarily resolved the emergency.

 

[Hippocampus]

Do know fabric, fiber and adhesive made huge advances as have metallurgy and valving tech. See it in sail and rope quality as well as the fabrics and adhesives in life rafts. No rubberized cotton or silk be sailing, mountaineering or other outdoors clothes either. I wear Filson waxed cotton but that’s a throwback. Have bought 5 life rafts over35 years. Each better than the last.
My point is don’t depend upon SARS or even others. Do what’s reasonable for the situations you’re likely to find yourself in. You can’t buy safety but you can mitigate your risk.

 

[Dougcole]

As to the Bahamas, I often hear people describe a trip "there" as a single open water crossing and then short easy hops in sheltered water between islands. This may be true if you are going to Grand Bahama or Bimini and then turning around and coming home, but if you are going to more than one chain you are going to be facing multiple open water passages.


The Abacos are the easiest since once you get to West End you don't have another deep water passage, but from there it's 50 to 100 more miles across the banks, depending on where you are headed. The more remote areas of the banks, between West End and about Carters Bank can, and often do, get very rough. We crossed from Stuart to Grand a few years back with an unusual west wind and hit the banks on an outgoing tide. The first 25 miles of the banks were quite a bit rougher than the stream. I've seen the banks go from slick calm to really nasty in summer squalls within about 10 minutes.



A trip to the Exumas is 50 miles across the stream to Bimini, then 50ish across the banks to the Berrys (likely directly into the chop), then 40 miles across the tongue of the ocean (deep, open water) to Nassau, then 35 miles across the banks to the northern Exumas.


If you want to work further south it is the same sort of thing.


We have been spending a month or more in the Bahamas for the last 16 years. It's wonderful, but don't underestimate it. There are plenty of places you can get in real trouble.

 

[psneeld]

Boaters, including pros die every year on the AICW. Doug is correct that even local waters can be fatal like most car accidents occur close to home. Familiarity is great, but complacency is just as deadly as anything.

Gear and boats are way better through the years....but my point was that PM while important isn't necessarily as important as relying on the right gear.

Yes I have been out of the loop awhile, and can't recommend what is good or bad, but some axioms will die hard...like some gear by design will be more reliable in an emergency than others.