LiFePO4 Batteries Could Invalidate Your Insurance
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There is speculation that the batteries in the VW electric powered cars on the burning RO RO transport ship in the Atlantic are feeding the fire. Which lithium technology would they be? If the "good" type batteries we're discussing were aboard a burning boat in a marina would they present a unique firefighting issue?
The Lithium batteries used in cars are very difficult to extinguish when they catch fire. Some fire departments European countries have large dumpster that they fill with water, and then somehow, pick up and submerge the burning vehicle.
The LiFePo batteries that SHOULD be used in boats are not supposed to be flammable. There is at least one video of LiFePo batteries being shot and put into a burning fire without the device catching fire. LiFePo batteries are a very safe chemistry.
Later,
Dan
Energy density.
Electric cars need to pack in the most energy possbile to maximize the miles they can drive, and the battery chemistries that provide that density, can catch fire.
Later,
Dan
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Dan, Is that within the same physical size the lifePO has less lasting energy?
twistedtree
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In my original question above, I was thinking in terms of an external fire getting to the LiFePo battery pack. I found the following quote in a Google search. If I understand it correctly, if a LiFePo bank got hot enough due to an external fire, it could (would?) turn into a self-sustaining blow torch. What then for a local fire department in a marina environment. Do the installation requirements and regulations account for this?
"We wanted to open a thread about general installation safety for LIFEPO4 battery banks.
To open this we would say that fireproof floors, walls and ceilings for a distance of 3ft would be the best precautions
Lifepo4 cells do not spontaneously combust but if they are cooked by a surrounding fire they will express flammable gas, this will make a hiss sound and then when the flames catch the gas it will create a heat cycle (heat makes cells make gas, gas burns and makes heat, and heat... "" "" )
"We wanted to open a thread about general installation safety for LIFEPO4 battery banks.
To open this we would say that fireproof floors, walls and ceilings for a distance of 3ft would be the best precautions
Lifepo4 cells do not spontaneously combust but if they are cooked by a surrounding fire they will express flammable gas, this will make a hiss sound and then when the flames catch the gas it will create a heat cycle (heat makes cells make gas, gas burns and makes heat, and heat... "" "" )
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For the sake of discussion, lets say this is true.
If there was a fire hot enough to cause LiFePo batteries to catch fire, me thinks the least of the problems is going to be that the LiFePo batteries caught fire.
Given most of the boats on this website are made of plastic the boat fire is going to be already out of control and the boat a total loss. At some point, the part of the boat with the LiFePo batteries is going to be flooded and they will extinguish. 
I would not expect a metal boat to survive a fire that was hot enough to cause LiFePo batteries to burn but there is a wee chance for survival I suppose simply because the structure of the boat is not going to burn. But the chance of a boat surviving that kind of fire does not seem good. I have read of a steel boat that had a galley fire and the crew was able to minimize air flow to below deck and smoother the fire while they made it back to a dock where fire crews were able to make sure the fire was out. The steel structure bought them time that I don't think a plastic boat would have had.
To be honest, I would be more worried about problems with lead acid batteries than LiFePo, but I sure would not loose sleep over lead acid batteries either. The risks are just too low to worry about.
By the way, there is at least one video on YouTube showing LiFePo batteries being tossed into a fire with no issues. There are plenty of videos of boats on fire and it is a horrible and scary thing to see. Once the structure of a plastic boat starts to burn it is all over.
Later,
Dan
Clearly the LiFePo equipped vessel would be a total loss. I was actually thinking about boats around it. A virtual blow torch that can't be extinguished could do some serious large scale destruction in a marina environment. Several boats so equipped could be a major calamity (for the sake of discussion).
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That already happens when a fiberglass boat burns. If there are neighboring boats without a good bit of separation, they're almost guaranteed to have fire damage and depending on how fast the fire department is on scene, it can very easily escalate into multiple boats on fire.
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I've sold several banks of Victron LiFePo batteries to boaters who upped their agreed value to cover the investment without any issues from the insurance company. One carrier asked for spec sheets and approved after a week. Another sent out a Surveyor, who was completely clueless about LPO, who OKed the install after a quick glance.
I do recommend installing the batteries in a location that has 6 to 12 inches of clearance from combustibles like clothing, plastic, paper etc..
But I recommend that practice for any high powered electrical devices like inverters, isolation transformers and chargers that have vent openings and louvers.
Saved Sandpiper from catching fire when the Magnum 2800 Inverter/Charger decided to self destruct in the middle of the night. It shot sparks and flames out of the vent opening and scorched the plywood wall next to it. Had there been combustibles stored in the same compartment, bye bye Sandpiper.
I do recommend installing the batteries in a location that has 6 to 12 inches of clearance from combustibles like clothing, plastic, paper etc..
But I recommend that practice for any high powered electrical devices like inverters, isolation transformers and chargers that have vent openings and louvers.
Saved Sandpiper from catching fire when the Magnum 2800 Inverter/Charger decided to self destruct in the middle of the night. It shot sparks and flames out of the vent opening and scorched the plywood wall next to it. Had there been combustibles stored in the same compartment, bye bye Sandpiper.
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report here #18 bullet
Flammability Characterization of Lithium-ion Batteries in Bulk Storage Research Technical Report
Flammability Characterization of Lithium-ion Batteries in Bulk Storage Research Technical Report
Yep.
The marina we are using actually has a fire boat occupying a slip. The fire station is a few hundred yards from the marina and the fireboat.
I suspect that a fire in a boat will result in the total loss of that boat before the fire department can respond even though they are 5-10 minutes away. The fire department can must likely stop the fire from spreading to take out the marina but, again, I suspect boats next to the boat on fire will be damaged, if not a total loss.
The battery chemistry is completely irrelevant with a plastic boat. Once the structure of a plastic boat is on fire, the odds are that it is game over for that boat. A metal boat might have slightly better odds since the boat structure will to fuel the fire but I would not bet on it.
Later,
Dan
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Extreme example, especially if waiting on a new Porsche:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02...struggle-to-douse-felicity-ace-fire/100848822
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-02...struggle-to-douse-felicity-ace-fire/100848822
Iggy
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Now they set the batteries on fire. But, this is were a good BMS comes into play. If there are temp sensors' in the battery the BMS will shut down the battery/s before a fire can start. I'm I off track on this??
Not all lithium batteries have temp sensors in them.
Not all lithium batteries have temp sensors in them.
My point is that if these LiFePo batteries become commonplace, and they are not enclosed with seriously robust fire proof enclosures, a marina fire fighting effort could be seriously hampered by multiple uncontrollable blow torch type fires. A guaranteed calamity. I'm not opposed to LiFePo batteries, but they dang sure better be enclosed properly. There's a lot of hype about how safe they are from impact and internal runaway....that's not my concern. BTW, twenty years ago we had a houseboat fire six slips away from our boat....covered marina on Lake Travis. Buckled the steel roof supports,etc. I know exactly what happens in a fire scenario. I know it would be seriously complicated if there were multiple Lithium fed blazes interspersed in the mix.
catalinajack
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A lot of discussion and assertion that LiFPo batteries are less expensive in the long-run. But, shouldn't the comparison be made on the total number of amp-hours that the batteries can be expected to deliver over their lifetime? In other words, what is the total cost per amp-hour delivered? For the LFP proponents, methinks you would be surprised by the result. The number of cycles delivered is only part of the equation.
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I'd expect a similar result, if not better going on that metric. If you take banks of equal size, you'll be cycling the lead bank to 50% at the lowest. LFP may be cycled beyond that. So power delivered per cycle should be at least as much and in many cases more. I'd figure if you get twice the cycle life, you're probably getting 2.5 - 3x the usable power.
twistedtree
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Thanks. That's a very useful experiment. It basically shows the worst case of what happens if a large LFP bank is subject to an external fire. But it's really no different than setting any other part a boat on fire and watching to see what happens. It catches fire, sustains, spreads, and consumes all it can reach. I think you would get the same result if you applied a propane heater to any other part of the boat. It would catch fire and burn to the waterline. I don't see anything that suggests a burning boat with an LFP house battery bank is more of an issue vs one with a LA battery bank. The real risk is stored propane, gasoline, and diesel.
twistedtree
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I tend to agree. Typical comparisons are based on the number of usable Ah in a bank, the cost to build those banks, and the number of cycles of useable Ah. Lead is typically 700 to 1000 cycles, and LFP about 3000 cycles. So LFP delivers 3-4x the lifetime Ah. As soon as it's 3-4x as expensive or less, it's a lower lifetime cost (excluding time cost of money)
We have several posts in this thread that deal with fires, but these are with lithium ion batteries, not LiFePo4 batteries, as these are the batteries used in electric vehicles, marine propulsion, and home battery walls. I believe these batteries are used due to the electrical densities being higher than LiFePo4 batteries.
I still haven't seen anything that would suggest that LiFePo4 batteries are more of a fire risk in a boat (or even an RV) than lead batteries.
Jim
I still haven't seen anything that would suggest that LiFePo4 batteries are more of a fire risk in a boat (or even an RV) than lead batteries.
Jim
twistedtree
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I agree with your assessment. Context is everything for all these reports and incidents, and it is typically glossed over with all types of Lithium-ion batteries lumped together as the same thing when they can actually be very different.
That said, the experiment that soo-valley linked was for LFP. But to address the context, the batteries were intentionally set on fire by a propane heater, and with all the battery protections disabled. So it was testing what happens when you toss LFP batteries into a fire. No surprise, they burn, just as the rest of your boat would burn.
What it did NOT test was what it takes to cause those same batteries to self-ignite. In other words, what does it take for them to be the source of the fire as opposed to a victim of a fire. Both are important to understand.
A quick search of the statistics behind fires on boats brings up a lot of data, much of it provided by the insurance companies. This one for example: https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice/expert-advice-archive/2021/february/analyzing-onboard-fire-claims
Time and again these reports tell us that the majority of fires are DC electrical related (not propane and not high voltage). Interesting are these 2 quotes from the article:
So I'd be surprised by a knowledgeable insurance carrier's threat to raise rates due to the LiFePO battery chemistry. Installation methods yes, but not chemistry.
Time and again these reports tell us that the majority of fires are DC electrical related (not propane and not high voltage). Interesting are these 2 quotes from the article:
- DC FIRES: "the most common cause of battery-related fires is operator error: reversing the battery cables or connecting them in series when they should have been in parallel or vice versa."
- AC FIRES: "Most AC electrical fires start somewhere between the marina pedestal and the shore power inlet on the boat."
So I'd be surprised by a knowledgeable insurance carrier's threat to raise rates due to the LiFePO battery chemistry. Installation methods yes, but not chemistry.
I really do not understand the idea that LiFePo battery fire is going to make that much of a difference for a boat already on fire. It is like saying if the fuel tanks were almost empty when a boat catches fire, the damage will be less.
Batteries are deep inside a boat, even in the video that was shown, for a battery that could power my HOUSE for two days, the battery flames would have been contained in the foot print of the boat. A huge LiFePo house battery would be a quarter of the size of the battery in the video. The boats we are using are packed into pretty tight in a marina. If anyone of them catches fire, the boats on either side are going to get damaged at some level. Battery chemistry is not going to impact the damage.
Later,
Dan
If the fire department can't extinguish the lithium fueled fire and it keeps blazing and reigniting, thereby exposing boats around it to an extended period of heat and flame...it makes a difference. Now put additional unhardened LiFePo battery boats next door or interspersed down the line....
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twistedtree
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That's where LFP makes the difference. Firefighting is pretty much the same as for other aspects of the boat. You still have the stored energy that will presumably be released, but that too is no different from any other battery. I've seen reports saying that the most flameable part of some LFP cells is the plastic case.
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