Lithium iron phosphate batteries on sale

[sbman]

I got the three Lion Energy batteries. I am going to put a 120 amp alternator on the starboard engine to just charge the house bank and use the port engine to charge the start batteries with an ACR. I built a tray to hold them. They are very secure and have no movement at all. I used a 3/8”x3/4” copper as bus bars to connect them in parallel.

That looks really good, I like the direct bus bar setup. I rotated your first photo. Hopefully it shows right side up with this post.

 

[Comodave]

That looks really good, I like the direct bus bar setup. I rotated your first photo. Hopefully it shows right side up with this post.

Thanks for fixing the photo. I am not a techie by any means and that is way above my paygrade...

 

[Bud]

That looks really good, I like the direct bus bar setup. I rotated your first photo. Hopefully it shows right side up with this post.

I like the fact that you left space between the batteries for air flow and possible expansian and contraction.

Bud

 

[Comodave]

I like the fact that you left space between the batteries for air flow and possible expansian and contraction.

Bud

Thanks, I try to think things through, sometimes I am even successful at it...

 

[Delfin]

In my experience (cruising with Firefly batteries), I think the ability of these newer technology batteries being able to charge faster and perform in a partial state of charge continuously is equally as important a consideration as available amp hours and up front costs.

Ditto Darren. The benefits of LFP include much faster charging, level current, greater usable capacity, and longevity. Focusing on price is the wrong metric.

 

[catalinajack]

Focusing on price is the wrong metric? Price is always a consideration on any boat item. The benefits you cite are without question but let's say, for example, the cost were double or triple, would you still say price is the wrong metric? Please remember that not everyone has deep pockets and sometimes a lower cost option is the correct option for a particular boater. So, if one can buy a FLA battery bank and flog them and replace them three times, is this not a good metric? So what they last only three or four years rather than six or eight. Use pattern also plays into the decision. LFP is simply not the best choice for everyone despite their technical advantages.

Ditto Darren. The benefits of LFP include much faster charging, level current, greater usable capacity, and longevity. Focusing on price is the wrong metric.

 

[Comodave]

For me the lithium batteries were the cheaper alternative. I wanted to increase the usable size of my house bank. I have 4 6 volt GC batteries now. I wanted to go to 6. In order to get the real estate to add 2 I would have had to replace the split A/C system with a self contained system, cost around $2400. With the lithium batteries I am putting 3 of them in a locker in the salon. I will gain room in the engine room by removing the 4 GC batteries. So the expensive lithium batteries are actually cheaper. I would have had to buy 6 new GC batteries, about $1000 plus shipping $300. Along with the new A/C would be $3700. The new lithium batteries cost $2300 and a new battery charger for the start batteries $300. They are costing $1100 less. I will use that to buy a 120 amp alternator and regulator and SOC meter and have $100 left over. I will have more usable amp hours and be able to charge faster and have a lifetime warranty.

 

[Pau Hana]

Ditto Darren. The benefits of LFP include much faster charging, level current, greater usable capacity, and longevity. Focusing on price is the wrong metric.

Focusing on price is the wrong metric? Price is always a consideration on any boat item. The benefits you cite are without question but let's say, for example, the cost were double or triple, would you still say price is the wrong metric? Please remember that not everyone has deep pockets and sometimes a lower cost option is the correct option for a particular boater. So, if one can buy a FLA battery bank and flog them and replace them three times, is this not a good metric? So what they last only three or four years rather than six or eight. Use pattern also plays into the decision. LFP is simply not the best choice for everyone despite their technical advantages.

For me the lithium batteries were the cheaper alternative. I wanted to increase the usable size of my house bank. I have 4 6 volt GC batteries now. I wanted to go to 6. In order to get the real estate to add 2 I would have had to replace the split A/C system with a self contained system, cost around $2400. With the lithium batteries I am putting 3 of them in a locker in the salon. I will gain room in the engine room by removing the 4 GC batteries. So the expensive lithium batteries are actually cheaper. I would have had to buy 6 new GC batteries, about $1000 plus shipping $300. Along with the new A/C would be $3700. The new lithium batteries cost $2300 and a new battery charger for the start batteries $300. They are costing $1100 less. I will use that to buy a 120 amp alternator and regulator and SOC meter and have $100 left over. I will have more usable amp hours and be able to charge faster and have a lifetime warranty.

The bottom line is that there is no boxed answer that fits all. We are in a hobby that can be done on a shoestring or with an open wallet- so the best solution is to simply accept that there multiple ways that are correct, based on the individual.

(you may now return to your regularly program....)

 

[bluebyu]

Post 59:
I'm hoping to have it all on a schematic this weekend. What drawing tool is recommended to spec this out?

I use free software called NanoCad (https://nanocad.com/products/)
It is similar to AutoCad or Drafsight.
If you are used to using the above, NanoCad would be easy.

If not, the learning curve may be steep.

Hope this helps

 

[twistedtree]

Ditto Darren. The benefits of LFP include much faster charging, level current, greater usable capacity, and longevity. Focusing on price is the wrong metric.

I agree. LFP works SO much better, and as a result I think is worth more. How much more is an individual decision, but it's not simply a cost per Ah evaluation.


In the past I have been willing to pay a bunch more for AGMs. Why? Because I hate having to check and top up water on a bunch of batteries, especially when they are in hard to reach places. Lots of other people are willing to pay more for the benefits of AGMs.


The same now extends to LFP. Do you want the ability to recharge in 2hrs or so? Do you want to stop having to choose between abusing your batteries by not full recharging then, or abusing your generator by running it endlessly at light loads? Do you want to stop worrying about when the last time was that you did fully recharge your batteries? Do you want to get 98% electrical throughput efficiency instead of 85%? Do you want to consume 1/3 the space for your batteries? Are these things worth something to you? They are sure worth something to me.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think a lot of this depends on how you use your boat and your skill set. We got 7 years on lifelines and when surveyed at sale still had >90% capacity on load test. Trick was solar and wind alt energy so that last little bit on float got them up so no sulfa. Batteries stayed charged without genset use. Had 1020ah so we rarely went below 80%soc and never to 50%.
On next boat will take what I’m given. When those go bad will use fireflies. This is because I know what I don’t know and I’m not a boat electrician. Know several cruising couples who have screwed up the conversion. Ended up spending huge money replacing what they destroyed and still needed a boat electrician to check out their redo.
To me the big advantage of fireflies is its next to impossible to screw it up and I still get most of the benefits of Li.

 

[Bud]

I agree with all of it. Our previous boat we replaced our lead/acid batteries every five years whether they needed it or not. cost around $1000 for 4 8d's. Mostly because i too hated crawling around the engine room and adding water ect. Our new boat has a stand up engine room so much easier. The solar panels down here in south Fl do very well. I have one panel and in full sun it provides 10 amps to the batteries for charging. Nice feature to help keep lead/acid batteries topped off when not plugged in or running the generator. That being said it is good to finally see some major progress on improving battery technology. It had not really changed much for years. (unless you had deep pockets) I will probably add some lithium phosphate or lifeline batteries to my system, it depends on how reliable i feel the charging equipment is for the lithium. For example, I ask myself what happens if the charging system fails? Would that effect my starting batteries? Am I decreasing my redundancy for starting either gen set or engines ? So I will stay tuned in.

Bud

Bud

 

[catalinajack]

Absolutely [emoji817] % correct assessment, that is, it's what the individual prefers for his type of use, convenience, expense, etc. There is no one right answer. My FLA works for me in the way I use the boat. I have easy access to water the batteries which takes maybe 15 minutes every two or three months. As for cost, sure, I would love to have a bank of LFP on a boat that I purchased. But, we will own this boat for maybe two or three more years before going back to a dirt house. Why would I spend LOTS of money on a LFP system and solar especially since what I will have will last longer than that? No payback in my mind except for a certain amount of convenience. For others, sure, it is a terrific choice.

I agree. LFP works SO much better, and as a result I think is worth more. How much more is an individual decision, but it's not simply a cost per Ah evaluation.


In the past I have been willing to pay a bunch more for AGMs. Why? Because I hate having to check and top up water on a bunch of batteries, especially when they are in hard to reach places. Lots of other people are willing to pay more for the benefits of AGMs.


The same now extends to LFP. Do you want the ability to recharge in 2hrs or so? Do you want to stop having to choose between abusing your batteries by not full recharging then, or abusing your generator by running it endlessly at light loads? Do you want to stop worrying about when the last time was that you did fully recharge your batteries? Do you want to get 98% electrical throughput efficiency instead of 85%? Do you want to consume 1/3 the space for your batteries? Are these things worth something to you? They are sure worth something to me.

 

[Delfin]

Focusing on price is the wrong metric? Price is always a consideration on any boat item. The benefits you cite are without question but let's say, for example, the cost were double or triple, would you still say price is the wrong metric? Please remember that not everyone has deep pockets and sometimes a lower cost option is the correct option for a particular boater. So, if one can buy a FLA battery bank and flog them and replace them three times, is this not a good metric? So what they last only three or four years rather than six or eight. Use pattern also plays into the decision. LFP is simply not the best choice for everyone despite their technical advantages.

If running your genset for 30% of the time to charge vs. FLA, or having stable current through 80% of the capacity of the battery has no value, or reducing the size and weight of the bank has no value, then you're right. The price of the battery is the only metric. Kind of like saying that a $10,000 car is better than a $15,000 car because, well, it's cheaper.

 

[ksanders]

They definitely do for lower powered charging systems. But they aren't practical for higher power charging systems, which in your case would be anything over 130A. And since LFP can accept higher charge rates, there is a lot of motivation to do so which quickly pushes you past what a DC/-DC charger can handle.

You touched on the real challenge, which is having enough charge current capacity to maximize the recharging of your batteries.

People tend to tout the recharge rate of LiFePo4 batteries compared to FLA systems, and they are correct.

Then they design a LiFePo4 solution that does not utilize that recharge capacity, and in fact does not even maximize the recharge capacity of a similar FLA battery bank.

This can and will result in failing to achieve the benefit that was the driver to the switch to LiFePo4 technology in the first place.

 

[bayview]

boaters sure love to buy spendy batteries.

 

[tozz]

[snip] What drawing tool is recommended to spec this out?

Hey Peter-

Visio for PC
OmniGraffle for Mac
Check out DIA or Calligra for free, opensource programs

-tozz

 

[Pau Hana]

Hey Peter-

Visio for PC
OmniGraffle for Mac
Check out DIA or Calligra for free, opensource programs

-tozz

Thanks, Craig!

P

 

[Tator]

The Lion batteries are back on sale at Costco. I am considering buying them and was wondering what folks experience has been since these earlier posts. I am thinking about replacing my 10 trojan t-105s with 6 of the Lions. 5 would probably do it, but they come in 2 packs.

Tator

 

[tpbrady]

I went the carbon foam route last summer and used them for a couple of months. I also have a 210A Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger I have used for 4 years. I looked at LFP but decided not to go that way. My observations on what I have now:

a. Carbon Foam Batteries: Take a charge faster. I still think they are confusing my Balmar Smart Gauge as the SOC on the Smart Gauge doesn't correlate very well with the consumed amp hours through the shunt on the Xantrex Link 2000. The SOC is always much higher than indicated by the consumed amp hours divided by the bank capacity, but the difference is at least a consistent amount.
b. Xantrex/Heart Interface. Still working pretty well, but on occasion charge current on a 70% SOC battery bank would drop to 2-3 amps. Turning the charger off and back on would restore the charge current to 30-40 amps. That was on my old battery bank and hasn't occurred on the carbon foam batteries.
c. Sterling Alternator to Battery Charger. I credit this device with giving a me 3 more years of life out of the 8D AGM's (lasted 9 years) because of it's charge profile compared to the previous set up from the PO.

I could have installed LFP batteries but one thing steered me away from them, they can't be charged easily when they are below freezing. ( https://relionbattery.com/blog/lithium-battery-cold-weather) I could see a scenario where shore power failed in the winter for an extended period of time in cold conditions and the batteries dropped to 32F or below. I wasn't aware of the Relion LT series of batteries when I made my decision but they could be a solution for vessels in cold climates.

Tom

 

[Comodave]

The Lion batteries are back on sale at Costco. I am considering buying them and was wondering what folks experience has been since these earlier posts. I am thinking about replacing my 10 trojan t-105s with 6 of the Lions. 5 would probably do it, but they come in 2 packs.

Tator

I am installing them right now. One thing that I love about them is that the terminals unscrew and leave a flat surface so I am using bus bars instead of jumper cables between the batteries. I think it will make a much cleaner install. Also the batteries will be rock solid as one unit so there won’t be any movement of the batteries. The Lion batteries will take a charge down to 32 degrees and supply power down to -4 degrees. They will turn off at 111 degrees. So I am moving the house bank out of the engine room and am putting them in a cabinet in the salon. The cable runs will be much shorter so that is good.

 

[Simi 60]

Ditto Darren. The benefits of LFP include much faster charging, level current, greater usable capacity, and longevity. Focusing on price is the wrong metric.

Much faster charging requires an increase in charger output - more money to spend.

 

[Comodave]

In my case, I wanted to increase the size of my house bank. In order to do the with 6 volt GC batteries, I would have had to replace my split system A/C with a self contained unit to get room for more batteries. So by going with the Lithium batteries I didn’t have to get a new A/C so I was able to buy the lithium batteries and a new 120 amp alternator and a new charger for the start batteries for less than adding more 6 volt GC batteries. But that was a specific case, most people will spend more to go with lithium batteries.

 

[ksanders]

Much faster charging requires an increase in charger output - more money to spend.

That is the part of the equation that most seem to either not understand or ignore.

A four battery bank of FLA L16 batteries will depending on the brand be right at or a bit over 800 amp hours in capacity, and accept a charge current of 200 amps.

Remember this is charge current so add your boats loads to that and you will then know your charger requirements to maximize this.

Now, how many of us have charge capability exceeding this?

My opinion darn few indeed.

Myself I have TWO Victron multiplus units running in parallel for a total charge capability of 240 amps. This barely amounts to the charge maximum on my FLA battery bank, so going to LIFeP04 will not save me generator run time.

BUT... Internet mythology and great salesmanship is fueling spending charging system upgrades, and that is a good thing.

My argument is and has been that a properly designed charging system will minimize generator run time, not simply the choice in LifeP04 batteries over competing technologies.

Take the same properly designed charging system, and use FLA batteries and in most cases you will achieve the same results if the goal is to minimize generator run time.

 

[CharlieJ]

ksanders #84

Take the same properly designed charging system, and use FLA batteries and in most cases you will achieve the same results if the goal is to minimize generator run time.

I have to disagree with you on this point. As a LA battery bank is charged, the charging sources will supply about 80% of the discharged capacity during the bulk phase. The charge regulator (inverter/charger, solar, wind, alternator, etc.) will then place the charging source in CV and the charging current will taper off as the resistance of the battery bank increases as it is recharged. That is why it takes an inordinate amount of time to finish the last 20% of recharging a LA bank.

With an LFP bank, the charging source will not, if set up properly, shift from CC > CV. It will CV for the entire charging cycle. The downshift in recharge rate of a LA bank just won't occur. So an LFP bank will recharge significantly quicker than a similarly discharged LA bank.

 

[Tator]

"A four battery bank of FLA L16 batteries will depending on the brand be right at or a bit over 800 amp hours in capacity, and accept a charge current of 200 amps."

FYI. Trojan recommends a charging rate of 10-13% for their FLAs!

Tator

 

[twistedtree]

ksanders #84


I have to disagree with you on this point. As a LA battery bank is charged, the charging sources will supply about 80% of the discharged capacity during the bulk phase. The charge regulator (inverter/charger, solar, wind, alternator, etc.) will then place the charging source in CV and the charging current will taper off as the resistance of the battery bank increases as it is recharged. That is why it takes an inordinate amount of time to finish the last 20% of recharging a LA bank.

With an LFP bank, the charging source will not, if set up properly, shift from CC > CV. It will CV for the entire charging cycle. The downshift in recharge rate of a LA bank just won't occur. So an LFP bank will recharge significantly quicker than a similarly discharged LA bank.

Exactly. This is where you get faster recharge time, even without increasing charger capacity.

Now if you never charge you LA batteries past bulk then this won’t matter. But then you will be creating a different problem with sulfation.

 

[ksanders]

ksanders #84


I have to disagree with you on this point. As a LA battery bank is charged, the charging sources will supply about 80% of the discharged capacity during the bulk phase. The charge regulator (inverter/charger, solar, wind, alternator, etc.) will then place the charging source in CV and the charging current will taper off as the resistance of the battery bank increases as it is recharged. That is why it takes an inordinate amount of time to finish the last 20% of recharging a LA bank.

With an LFP bank, the charging source will not, if set up properly, shift from CC > CV. It will CV for the entire charging cycle. The downshift in recharge rate of a LA bank just won't occur. So an LFP bank will recharge significantly quicker than a similarly discharged LA bank.

Exactly. This is where you get faster recharge time, even without increasing charger capacity.

Now if you never charge you LA batteries past bulk then this won’t matter. But then you will be creating a different problem with sulfation.

You guys are assuming that you are actually charging beyond 80% which most folks on the hook with FLA batteries do not do if they understand FLA charging.

My argument is valid electrically. If you operatye your FLA bank in the approx 50-80% SOC range most will never be able to exceed the charge capabilities of a reasonable FLA bank using off the shelf charging equipment.

BTW my crown 430 AH batteries recommend a maximum of 100A charge current. That means that two parallel strings are 200A. Few chargers have excess of that capability.

Remember that evey watt of energy used out of a battery bank needs to be replaced. If you are operating your bank to maximize your chargers capability when running on generator you are not going to avhieve better results than that, regardless of the technology of the batteries. Thus you are not saving generator run time.

Admittedly if you have the same size bank of LifeP04 batteries as FLA batteries you can run your generator longer to replace those watts used, and go longer between generator run times, but you will not shorten the total time you need to run the generator.

The problem with that is few people replace a 800AH FLA bank with a 800AH LiFeP04 bank. They tend to go smaller because of cost, etc...

Then consider this... On a FLA bank that is operated normally between 50 and 80% you have the capability to occasionally go all the way to zero or close to it without affecting the overall longevity of your bank. For example if you are planning to be underway and using your main engine alternator you might not run your generator at all, just discharge below 50% and catch up using your main engine while underway.

You Do Not have that luxury with Life P04 because you typically operate in the 20-100% range, meaning you have no reserve cushion to fall back on, since it is simply not there.

 

[twistedtree]

You guys are assuming that you are actually charging beyond 80% which most folks on the hook with FLA batteries do not do if they understand FLA charging.

My argument is valid electrically. If you operatye your FLA bank in the approx 50-80% SOC range most will never be able to exceed the charge capabilities of a reasonable FLA bank using off the shelf charging equipment.

BTW my crown 430 AH batteries recommend a maximum of 100A charge current. That means that two parallel strings are 200A. Few chargers have excess of that capability.

Remember that evey watt of energy used out of a battery bank needs to be replaced. If you are operating your bank to maximize your chargers capability when running on generator you are not going to avhieve better results than that, regardless of the technology of the batteries. Thus you are not saving generator run time.

Admittedly if you have the same size bank of LifeP04 batteries as FLA batteries you can run your generator longer to replace those watts used, and go longer between generator run times, but you will not shorten the total time you need to run the generator.

The problem with that is few people replace a 800AH FLA bank with a 800AH LiFeP04 bank. They tend to go smaller because of cost, etc...

Then consider this... On a FLA bank that is operated normally between 50 and 80% you have the capability to occasionally go all the way to zero or close to it without affecting the overall longevity of your bank. For example if you are planning to be underway and using your main engine alternator you might not run your generator at all, just discharge below 50% and catch up using your main engine while underway.

You Do Not have that luxury with Life P04 because you typically operate in the 20-100% range, meaning you have no reserve cushion to fall back on, since it is simply not there.

Agreed if you only charge through bulk ~80%.

It’s small, but LFP is also 95+% efficient round trip, with LA in the 80-90% range. So a slight difference there.

 

[ksanders]

Agreed if you only charge through bulk ~80%.

It’s small, but LFP is also 95+% efficient round trip, with LA in the 80-90% range. So a slight difference there.

Thank You!

Of all the people here I have learned over time to trust and respect your knowledge of electrical systems.