RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. HS. One of many European sources for steel vessels: https://www.devalk.nl/en/Yachts-for-sale.html
Mr. HS. One of many European sources for steel vessels: https://www.devalk.nl/en/Yachts-for-sale.html
9 years is a life time. Enjoy your dream, the world will be a different place in 5 years, it’s ok to change your dream. If you still have the same dream 8 years from now the information will be more relevant.
Basically, what length and draft would you consider prohibitive for an average guy to bounce around the world?
To clarify some variables - assume a worst case of only 2 people on board, will be equipped with bow & stern thrusters, no intention on transient docking unless absolutely necessary (mooring/anchoring out always), a pretty healthy yearly cruising budget but nothing crazy, and no time-frame/schedule at all so weather windows will be chosen carefully.
I'm definitely not going to pull the trigger until I've consulted the proper experts. That's great intel about the ballast that I had not considered. Thanks.
Well, ok. A 70' seiner, fishing roe herring in the Charlottes, in March. If they're going to survive, the seine will be in the hold until they can replace that with 100-150 tons of herring. Otherwise, people die.
Conversions of fish boats with large carrying capacities are problematic.
Funny enough, they're one of the driving factors behind my desire. It looks to me that they're getting it done. Albeit well behind their own schedule, but that's why I want to double my allotted time.
Above a certain size (depending upon cruising grounds) having a big boat means a lot more advanced planning. Places with suitable berths are limited and this decreases your flexibility as to where you can go.
Above a certain size even if you have the tools and skill set you’re going to have other people work on your boat. You’re going to want to “get her done” not spend your time doing that work instead of cruising. Even at 45-55’ at a minimum doing bottoms, running gear, wax, etc. is grunt work which you’ll want to dump on someone else.
Logically you have length x width x depth. 80' isn't 33% greater than 60', but more like 70%.Costs don’t increase linearly with loa but rather more with displacement.
Needing crew is very limiting.
See little reason to go larger if your in to boating. Note my captain friend rarely saw the owner. Even rarer was to have the owner(s) on the boat when it was underway. Neither the Caribbean-med nor the Caribbean -Maine loops were done with owners.
Another thing to consider is that when you exceed 20m in length you trigger a bunch of new regs and requirements. The rules vary widely, but it’s a magic number. Most notable in my experience so far is mandatory VTS participation in many areas. You take the fist step across the line from recreational operation to professional operation. I have heard that in some areas it triggers licensing requirements as well.
6 years full time cruising on a 60 fter
Would love our exact same setup on a 65 or even 70 fter for extra WLL and extra beam
But not if it meant stepping up into bigger engines, extra shaft etc.
The OP did not state his age, but lets assume it's 50 ish. 9 years is certainly a lifetime but even more so as we get older. At 50, you may still feel invinceable and be able to do everything you could at 30. But between 50 and 60, aging can accelerate and you may face some unexpected health issues you never dreamed of. Since you apparently have a decent budget for a boat, I agree it would be better to buy something and start cruising and learn what you like and don't like. For 2 people, I can't imagine something in the 45-50 ft range that is already set up and proven as a long range cruiser couldn't suffice. And if it doesn't you can always sell and buy again, bigger or smaller. If your project boat doesn't turn into the dream you envision, you may have a hard time finding a buyer and likely at a large loss of your retirement budget. Also, if you really love to spend time and money working on boats, any used boat will give you plenty of opportunities for improvements and customization w/o starting with an empty steel hull. an the end, you'd probably have a nicer boat and more money left in reserve and maybe you could manage leaving sooner than 9 years for your adventure.
How big is too big.... For a couple? Depends on experience, skills, financial wherewithal, and physical fitness of the couple. And depends on how the boat is setup.
Cashing out a 401k to buy a 110-ft commercial boat, refit over 9-yrs and wonder if there are any issues beyond anchoring further out? This is the product of too much time on Yachtworld. Too little time in the real Boatworld. A 40' boat might be oversized....
Peter
I believe that infamous Time Bandit is for sale.
There are other former crab boats for sale that were buyback boats that cannot participate in any fisheries.
Sounds like a fun plan.
I'd probably divide the question into two parts. How big can two people handle? How big can two people maintain?
The handling part -- especially docking or locking -- is often about layout, flow, and experience more than overall size. Good visibility, good side deck access, etc.
The maintaining part is more often about number of and access to various systems... and stamina. You will be cleaning, repairing, replacing, upgrading something -- or researching/planning for one of those -- every day. EVERY DAY!
OK, that's a little hyperbole, but not much... and as you go larger, incorporate more systems and so forth, you'll risk straining that whole stamina thing...
I can't really recommend a size limit, mostly because to me it would depend on the actual boat. And for your goal, it would depend on the actual "2 people."
-Chris
When it comes to bigger boats, part of the question is how large an annual expense can you handle. Bigger boats burn more fuel. Bigger engines hold more gallons of oil. Normal annual replacement parts are more expensive. When you have to haulout, ships cost a lot more to haul than boats.
Probably a good idea to find out what a bottom job (haul, clean and paint) costs. Remember, 10 to 15 years from now, you might not be able to physically do the work required and need to pay someone to do it. Do you have deep enough pockets to handle an engine replacement? Old boats come with old engines. Many can be rebuilt for 5 figures. Have a catastrophic failure, and now you're looking at 6 figures.
The world of boat insurance is now very different. Visited a friend of mine last week. His dock neighbor has an 80' Hatteras motor yacht fully restored. The only insurance company he could find to insure his boat, won't let him operate it without a licensed captain onboard. Do you have documented time or prior ownership of vessels within 25' length of ones your considering? Can you afford a 5 figure annual insurance bill? Can you afford a licensed captain until the insurance company says you have enough experience?
Ted
I would try to keep it under 70’. And even at 70’ it’s a lot of boat for two people to maintain. Plus, 70’ should accomplish your mission without too much trouble.
I think the advice to get a boat now - maybe something in the 50’ range - and get some experience is the way to go. You will lear so much about what you like, don’t like, need, and want. Then refine the specs for the next boat.
And I would avoid a big refit project. Even a well sorted boat will be a huge project, and your extra time I think is better spent gaining cruising and not experience.
So many things I could say but many have been covered. To answer the primary question I would limit it to 50-60 feet. No reason to go larger for even more than 2 people. You need 2 heads, a couple of staterooms, a pilot house, galley and saloon. Everything else is superfluous and probably wasted space that you have to pay for and maintain. I would concur with those who say buy an existing older solid boat soon. As an owner of several of these over time I assure you you will still learn everything you need to know without starting with just a hull!
Just for perspective:
A friend bought a working seiner in 2001. Used to work wherever there were fish, including the Bering Sea. To get there, it traveled empty, safely. The herring fishery had been its last adventure as a fishboat. I saw it with a scum line around the stern, acquired on that herring fishery. Empty, the boat was sitting over 3' higher. Its present waterline is close to that empty position, after removing the gear and adding cabins in the hold and on the deck, dinghies on the new roof. As a pleasure boat, that is a superb example. It has been featured in yachting magazines. No, it hasn't gone offshore as a pleasure boat, but it has obtained certification after whatever testing the Canadian DoT required, so has passed the stability requirements. I know the conversion took about 5 years and cost far more than the initial estimates, but the owner never brags about the actual amount spent.
It sounds like you want to do something similar. You should scour the wooden boat magazines, commercial boat magazines, for stories about workboat conversions. There are plenty of examples and perspectives.
IME, 70' is about the upper limit for a boat to be handled by two people. But not just any 70' boat, one that is laid out to be handled by two.
You should also consider the relationship of costs to length, which are not linear. Just as the volume of a sphere increases as a function of the cube of its diameter, many of the costs associated with boat ownership correspondingly increase as a function of a boat's length.
I would have to ask why?
Two people and a few occasional guests can be comfortable on a 50 to 60' boat. Assuming you won't have a horde of guests all the time why would you want to "drag" an extra 20' to 50' of boat around everywhere you go?
You can anchor most of the time but probably not ALL the time. Occasionally you will need it hauled for repairs & maintenance--longer/heavier limits the places this can happen.
Simple things like dock lines, anchors & ground tackle grow in size and cost.
So, I don't think the "biggest" is the best idea--what is the "smallest" that will do all you envision, comfortably.
It's very possible to do and I love watching somebody else do it !!
None of the youtubers give a cost to do it. Just have to do it for the experience I guess. Figure twice as long and 3 times the $$$
Just curious, what's a used commercial boat, like your thinking about, go for out there ? I was surprised at the price's when I searched around on the east coast. Compare that with a new hull able to move under it's own power. You do the finishing work. That's what I'd do. There is a lot to be said for new on a boat once the bugs are worked out. Just maintaining will keep you busy.
I was never serious about doing one, just thought it was a neat idea too.
Went through this exercise before choosing and building our last boat which was used for full time cruising. Have a close friend who ran boats 80-120’ as full time captain. Have other friends who are full time time cruisers. Things I was educated to:
Above a certain size (depending upon cruising grounds) having a big boat means a lot more advanced planning. Places with suitable berths are limited and this decreases your flexibility as to where you can go. If you’re a free spirit and pick a direction instead of a strict list of designated destinations you’ll find it frustrating. Some of our best cruises started with “ let’s check out this chain of islands or let’s head down this coast”.
Above a certain size even if you have the tools and skill set you’re going to have other people work on your boat. You’re going to want to “get her done” not spend your time doing that work instead of cruising. Even at 45-55’ at a minimum doing bottoms, running gear, wax, etc. is grunt work which you’ll want to dump on someone else.
Big boats are complex. Between that and grunt work vetting vendors, scheduling, and monitoring work is a time consuming PIA.
Big boats are easier to run than small once underway but a whole new ballpark for close quarters. Neither is it anchoring you need to relearn but fueling, docking, positioning in channels etc. in some respects easier but a new skill set.
Costs don’t increase linearly with loa but rather more with displacement.
Needing crew is very limiting. I kept a crew book and still was always looking for good reliable, available crew. It’s a huge deal being able to run as a mom and pop only needing crew to satisfy insurance requirements. That’s massively liberating.
In power you see the boats that are actually used the most from my limited observations are usually ~65’ at the top end of loa. Don’t know TT or Hammerheads decision matrix but think they choose very wisely. Both will be owner operators. Have much wider cruising choices and miss out on virtually nothing for quality of life concerns. See little reason to go larger if your in to boating. Note my captain friend rarely saw the owner. Even rarer was to have the owner(s) on the boat when it was underway. Neither the Caribbean-med nor the Caribbean -Maine loops were done with owners.