backinblue
Guru
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2019
- Messages
- 3,938
- Location
- USA
- Vessel Name
- Blue Moon
- Vessel Make
- Mainship Pilot 355
I think SeaLife makes some very good points in his post.
Looking at a 1972 65 foot wooden Romsdahl
- Thread starter eclinden
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
So what I said was to get the boat into SOLID condition here (bottom, engine, running gear), then take off across the Pacific and have the aesthetic renovations done in SE Asia. The cost to take the OP's vessel aesthetically from its present state to the Romsdahl shown previously would be an easy half million in America. Probably cost 1/3 or 1/4 that in Indonesia, Thailand or Malaysia.
Regarding the cost of the trip, well, it's the journey, not the destination! I hope someone doesn't buy a 65ft bluewater boat just to cruise Puget Sound all day.
That would be an incredible trip. I Probably wouldn't want to come back.
DBL
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2022
- Messages
- 34
50 Year Old Wooden Boat = Big, Big Money for repairs.
You've gotten some really good advice on this already. I agree that the price of the boat is probably incidental to what it will take to make it what you really want.
Some years ago, I managed the reconstruction of a 50 year old, 61 foot wooden motoryacht. The boat had a professional crew its whole life, was hauled and painted every year and was underway with people on board at least 200 days a year. The boat looked great, with gleaming mahogany and crisp white paint throughout. That was the part you could easily see.
The project started as a repair, not a reconstruction. As we pulled up the floor boards in all the cabins, removed the bunks and cabinets and opened up the ceiling (wall paneling) in the heads, we found that there were dozens of rotted and broken frames (ribs) and rotted floor timbers, corroded through-hull fittings, wasted fasteners, bad wiring, failing tanks, bad bonding system, bad plumbing and bad planks. For about 20 feet on the port side, the frames just below the water line had turned to dirt, in a place where a "renovation" with new cabinets had cutoff all the natural air flow under the decking.
Even with the boat out of the water, you couldn't see ANY of the really bad problems without spending several days removing planks and taking the cabins / bunks / heads apart. Peeking through hatches with a flashlight just didn't show the real condition and scope. The full scope of the project took us a month to develop, with 4 to 5 people working on it every day.
After 23,000 man-hours and more than a million dollars, we had a solid, fully-functional boat. And we didn't have to do any engine or transmission work.
The project was quite a voyage of discovery. You can message me if you'd like to talk about how it progressed. I have some photos that will give you a lot to think about...
You've gotten some really good advice on this already. I agree that the price of the boat is probably incidental to what it will take to make it what you really want.
Some years ago, I managed the reconstruction of a 50 year old, 61 foot wooden motoryacht. The boat had a professional crew its whole life, was hauled and painted every year and was underway with people on board at least 200 days a year. The boat looked great, with gleaming mahogany and crisp white paint throughout. That was the part you could easily see.
The project started as a repair, not a reconstruction. As we pulled up the floor boards in all the cabins, removed the bunks and cabinets and opened up the ceiling (wall paneling) in the heads, we found that there were dozens of rotted and broken frames (ribs) and rotted floor timbers, corroded through-hull fittings, wasted fasteners, bad wiring, failing tanks, bad bonding system, bad plumbing and bad planks. For about 20 feet on the port side, the frames just below the water line had turned to dirt, in a place where a "renovation" with new cabinets had cutoff all the natural air flow under the decking.
Even with the boat out of the water, you couldn't see ANY of the really bad problems without spending several days removing planks and taking the cabins / bunks / heads apart. Peeking through hatches with a flashlight just didn't show the real condition and scope. The full scope of the project took us a month to develop, with 4 to 5 people working on it every day.
After 23,000 man-hours and more than a million dollars, we had a solid, fully-functional boat. And we didn't have to do any engine or transmission work.
The project was quite a voyage of discovery. You can message me if you'd like to talk about how it progressed. I have some photos that will give you a lot to think about...
Last edited:
Slowmo
Senior Member
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2018
- Messages
- 453
- Location
- United States
- Vessel Name
- Esprit
- Vessel Make
- 40' Tollycraft tricabin diesel
I owned a wooden boat for decades. A marine shipwright told me once that the cost of maintenance of a boat doubles for every 5 feet of length. My 40' wood boat cost an average of $5000 in maintenance per year. Painting it cost $8-12K and had to be done every 4 years at minimum. Even if the rule of thumb isn't right do the math on the cost of maintaining a 65' wood boat. In the old days when you could paint at the dock you could do a lot yourself, but these days most work needs to be in a yard. It isn't good for a wood boat to be out of the water for long as the planks shrink. On a boat that large even simple things like painting will take time since there's a lot of surface area.
There are lots of good things about wood: it is quieter than FG, it insulates better, and wood is an easy material to work on. But frankly unless you have a spare $500K to spend on this boat I'd pass it up.
There are lots of good things about wood: it is quieter than FG, it insulates better, and wood is an easy material to work on. But frankly unless you have a spare $500K to spend on this boat I'd pass it up.
@DBL reminds us of a very important need for wood boats, and all boats actually, ventilation.
Supply and exhaust cowls into all enclosed spaces: chain locker; bilge under the staterooms; lazarette. I think the engine room is generally well vented, except the under sole area can become stagnant as well.
Supply and exhaust cowls into all enclosed spaces: chain locker; bilge under the staterooms; lazarette. I think the engine room is generally well vented, except the under sole area can become stagnant as well.
DBL
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2022
- Messages
- 34
Photos - The Problems Beneath the Paneling...
This post is a follow up to my notes from earlier today.
The two attached photos illustrate problems that were only found after pulling a couple of planks and then removing all the interior paneling...
1. Removing a plank revealed that a couple of frames were missing. You could stick your arm into the cavity and feel the crumbling wood. This meant it was time to remove the interior paneling.
2. Removing the interior revealed that all the frames and planks in the area were bad. Lots of work to do.
This boat was being used 4 to 5 days a week, right up until entering the shipyard. I really thought that the owner was going to pull the plug, and that I was going to have to look for a new job...
This post is a follow up to my notes from earlier today.
The two attached photos illustrate problems that were only found after pulling a couple of planks and then removing all the interior paneling...
1. Removing a plank revealed that a couple of frames were missing. You could stick your arm into the cavity and feel the crumbling wood. This meant it was time to remove the interior paneling.
2. Removing the interior revealed that all the frames and planks in the area were bad. Lots of work to do.
This boat was being used 4 to 5 days a week, right up until entering the shipyard. I really thought that the owner was going to pull the plug, and that I was going to have to look for a new job...
Attachments
BruceK
Moderator Emeritus
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2011
- Messages
- 13,486
- Vessel Name
- Sojourn
- Vessel Make
- Integrity 386
Wow! Reminds me of the strawberry punnet syndrome,"the deeper you go the worse it gets".
That said, I hope the OP`s target boat is in way better shape.
That said, I hope the OP`s target boat is in way better shape.
socalrider
Guru
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2020
- Messages
- 1,041
- Location
- usa
- Vessel Name
- SEA WOLF
- Vessel Make
- 1979 CHB 41 Trawler
Geez that's sobering. Maybe a boroscope could be used to get a visual on frames that are hidden? I've used a cheap one that connects to my phone wirelessly to look at steel fuel tanks; not the easiest thing to use, but it could certainly tell if a frame was missing!
That's what I was thinking also. I have used them on airplane engines and they work okay. Guess you have to drill some holes in various places to pass it through maybe two holes one for an additional light if needed and one for the borescope. It would take a lot of holes to get a good visual on 65 feet of hull.
DBL
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2022
- Messages
- 34
Photos - Behind the Panelling
"And no way to discover that without dismantling parts of the boat"
A big boat has so much cabinet work that's located at about the same level as the bilge stringer, a critical stress point, that you just can't see what's happening without removing cabinets, panels and bunks.
Most of what's under the sole is a mystery until you take it apart.
The soles are fastened down pretty tightly, to keep things from rattling. Some rooms have inspection ports down to the bilge, and others don't. An inspection port that's 1 ft x 1.5 ft will let you see if there's water below, and check on the stuffing boxes, but you can't really tell what's happening one or two frames away.
Same with the floor timbers. They are repeatedly saturated, then dried out, and you can't see them without opening up the cabin sole.
And then there's the keel bolts from the keelson through the floors to the keel itself. They don't last forever.
Along with the invisible wood problems, there's also the need to inspect the bonding system for all through-hull penetrations. I've seen boats in which a house electrician, not understanding boats, had confused the 110v ground wiring with the bonding system, resulting in the destruction of the bronze shaft struts and 18 inch long bronze through bolts. The bolts looked okay until we started to remove them, only to find that they were only 4 inches long, and had corroded to pencil points at the ends.
I wish I could offer you a happier picture, but I have to be realistic. These issues just build up over a 50 year period and, at some point, an owner has to either commit to fixing the structural systems "from the basement up" or walk away.
Before making an offer, it would be good to decide what your "walkaway number" is, including purchase and rebuild. You might be okay with spending $150K over a couple of years and stopping, once you've figured out that you're still $400K (or more) away from finished. You can still have a lot of fun with $400K.
I hope the inspection goes well.
"And no way to discover that without dismantling parts of the boat"
A big boat has so much cabinet work that's located at about the same level as the bilge stringer, a critical stress point, that you just can't see what's happening without removing cabinets, panels and bunks.
Most of what's under the sole is a mystery until you take it apart.
The soles are fastened down pretty tightly, to keep things from rattling. Some rooms have inspection ports down to the bilge, and others don't. An inspection port that's 1 ft x 1.5 ft will let you see if there's water below, and check on the stuffing boxes, but you can't really tell what's happening one or two frames away.
Same with the floor timbers. They are repeatedly saturated, then dried out, and you can't see them without opening up the cabin sole.
And then there's the keel bolts from the keelson through the floors to the keel itself. They don't last forever.
Along with the invisible wood problems, there's also the need to inspect the bonding system for all through-hull penetrations. I've seen boats in which a house electrician, not understanding boats, had confused the 110v ground wiring with the bonding system, resulting in the destruction of the bronze shaft struts and 18 inch long bronze through bolts. The bolts looked okay until we started to remove them, only to find that they were only 4 inches long, and had corroded to pencil points at the ends.
I wish I could offer you a happier picture, but I have to be realistic. These issues just build up over a 50 year period and, at some point, an owner has to either commit to fixing the structural systems "from the basement up" or walk away.
Before making an offer, it would be good to decide what your "walkaway number" is, including purchase and rebuild. You might be okay with spending $150K over a couple of years and stopping, once you've figured out that you're still $400K (or more) away from finished. You can still have a lot of fun with $400K.
I hope the inspection goes well.
long-cours.62
Guru
For the price
one of my friend had a wooden GB50, she sold her for 45000€.
Our first boat was a wooden one,not a good experience,
we had two another boat partially in wood (deck and roof) not a good experience also.
We had a former custom patrol boat after 35 year the wooden hull still in perfect condition ( mahogany originally covered with fiberglass, deck plywood also with fiberglass).
one of my friend had a wooden GB50, she sold her for 45000€.
Our first boat was a wooden one,not a good experience,
we had two another boat partially in wood (deck and roof) not a good experience also.
We had a former custom patrol boat after 35 year the wooden hull still in perfect condition ( mahogany originally covered with fiberglass, deck plywood also with fiberglass).
@LV62, similar to you, I had a steel hull with a caulked teak deck and wood superstructure, waterproofed with canvas and paint.
When I bought it was a 40 year old project boat and got to experience challenges in steel and wood both.
Personally I prefer steel over wood, but my #1 preference is NOT to buy a project boat of any kind anymore!
When I bought it was a 40 year old project boat and got to experience challenges in steel and wood both.
Personally I prefer steel over wood, but my #1 preference is NOT to buy a project boat of any kind anymore!
I go back to your album pics showing bad planking areas. At the time these planks were off for replacement would have provided a perfect window to the underlying structure.
Had problems migrated beyond planks? Someone knows something...will the owner authorize the yard who did work to speak freely about what was seen?
Had problems migrated beyond planks? Someone knows something...will the owner authorize the yard who did work to speak freely about what was seen?
DBL
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2022
- Messages
- 34
Pulling the First Plank...
When we pulled off the first plank, pieces of a frame fell out. Reaching my arm into the cavity revealed more problems. Pulling the second plank, a few feet away, exposed a few more issues.
You reach a point where you have to stop pulling planks, and open up the inside ceiling to assess how far the problems go. If you keep pulling planks, and the frames are gone, the boat can collapse around you, since the skeleton is bad and you've removed the supporting skin. (The edge to edge pressure of the planking provides a lot of support.)
As we started the process, we created a table of offsets every foot from the keel to the caprails, from bow to stern, so we could measure any changes in her shape and take corrective action as we took some structure away, then replaced it with good stuff before going to the next section.
I was blessed to be working with a Norwegian master carpenter who lived on a 100 year old wooden ship that he had sailed to the US from Norway. He kept me out of trouble on a lot of days.
When we pulled off the first plank, pieces of a frame fell out. Reaching my arm into the cavity revealed more problems. Pulling the second plank, a few feet away, exposed a few more issues.
You reach a point where you have to stop pulling planks, and open up the inside ceiling to assess how far the problems go. If you keep pulling planks, and the frames are gone, the boat can collapse around you, since the skeleton is bad and you've removed the supporting skin. (The edge to edge pressure of the planking provides a lot of support.)
As we started the process, we created a table of offsets every foot from the keel to the caprails, from bow to stern, so we could measure any changes in her shape and take corrective action as we took some structure away, then replaced it with good stuff before going to the next section.
I was blessed to be working with a Norwegian master carpenter who lived on a 100 year old wooden ship that he had sailed to the US from Norway. He kept me out of trouble on a lot of days.
Simi 60
Guru
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2016
- Messages
- 5,482
- Location
- Australia
- Vessel Make
- Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
When we bought ours it was based on what we could see looked good and
there were a few areas that felt soft but the assumption was made it was cosmetic (soft decks, soft bulwarks, badly flaking varnish)
Reality has proven this mostly true with bulwarks out the underlying structure was fine and immediate repaired deck ply lifted underlying timbers were mostly fine.
Varnish was simply machine sanded and solid colour self priming paint rolled on.
This lift doing more of the decks -
Foredeck ok, one degraded plank replaced
Side decks worse than expected - we chased the rot aft until we ran out of boat, pulled all deck planking up from around midships aft, cut out several metres of side rub rail and replace a section of top plank before putting in new planks and then ply/epoxy deck.
Having this deck planking off allowed us to climb in and inspect a large section of inaccessible hull and all was in good condition.
Expected re-launch in a few days
It's been a long 5 weeks
Last edited:
Would you mind sharing what the bill was for this work? Give me some idea what I should extrapolate from if things pretty much are not all that good.
I thought it was interesting that when they did the work on the bottom in November and knew they were selling it that they didn't have a survey done. I do want to ask the yard and did the work what they saw or if anyone even looked.
DBL
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2022
- Messages
- 34
Hi, I'm fairly new to the forum, and don't know how to find the photo album for the Ramsdahl you're considering... I'd really like to see it. Thanks. DBL
Click on his name in the left column, then go to the first item in the drop down menu, then look to the right, where he has the album.
Simi 60
Guru
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2016
- Messages
- 5,482
- Location
- Australia
- Vessel Make
- Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Different rates of pay in different parts of the world
Australia is pretty high
And at present there is so much work available here in this particular area, many visiting superyachts - that things get can gougy.
Several other things I wanted done CLEARLY had F Off pricing attached (ridiculous pricing hoping customer goes away, but if he doesn't, stupid money made)
If looking at hourly rates if doing same hours
If I used onsite trades it could have cost easily 100% more than I paid
If I was in South East Asia it likely would have cost 85% less than I paid
I got my own team in who I have used before, I did not use the onsite trades
I organised all my own materials
Timber is pretty cheap if buying recycled seasoned hardwoods from demo yards
Dont forget cost of lift, hardstand, shed if needed and for us a scissor lift
Add: Job is done, topcoat is drying and going in water Monday
Last edited:
Right now I am going to pass on the boat. Too much I can't see and can't be inspected.
