Low priced LiFePO4 Batteries vs High priced

[Davil1]

My intention is to open a thread dedicated ONLY to LOW END PRICED Batteries

Please, limit postings to the stated heading.

Be specific to brands or types.
Avoid "opinions" technical, anecdotal, my friend told me, Insurance related

"Just the facts ma'mam"

There are many threads dedicated to different aspects of LiFePO4 installation and technical considerations, more than 1000 postings! but have difficult answering my questions.

will be very useful to tally real experience from real users using real brands.


My goal is to find answers to the following questions



Have spent considerable time on Google, Brand sites,Rod's comprehensive review (Marine How)

Looked at customer reviews on Amazon for different brands.

The usual answer "you get what you pay for" does not necessarily provide logical explanations.

Depending on type of sailing, cruising, variables such as charging and monitor systems not all owners have the same needs and perhaps installing the top of the line may be an overkill IF having facts to make an informed decision.

Findings so far

These are some of the points mentioned trying to explain the reasons for price disparity.

Quality of product, such as cells not properly secured, protected and separated inside box.

Type, not all use same technology, been the preferred Prismatic vs Cylindrical.

BMS crucial element and a weak point on lower end prices.?

Amazon listing over 4000 reviews with each one purchasing more than one battery brings a possible usage of 10000? units? with mostly positive experiences.

As reference, these are some of the more rated/purchased brands

CHINS LiFePO4 Battery 12V 100AH Lithium Battery - Built-in 100A BMS,

Ampere Time LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery 12V 100Ah with Built-in 100A BMS
__________________
A Sempre Avanti

 

[Scottwb96]

good morning!

I have installed on my own boat as well as 4-5 other friends boats full LiFePo4 upgrades.

For me personally, I had been slowly building my system for the change-over. Started w/ Wakespeed WS500's on each engine for the ext. regulators. Next upgraded the charging system (shore) to a Victron MultiPlus-ii. Both of those options allowed for integration with each other (they communicate on the CAN.BUS network).
The next piece of the puzzle which I wasn't initially set on was the BMS. I ended up going with the REC Active BMS. Mainly because of all the reviews and most importantly, again, integration w/ the other components. WS/Victron/REC have a very tight partnership and they work REALLY well together when configured correctly!!!

On the BMS side, no matter which direction you go, get one that is at a BARE MIN able to be viewed remotely. Some of the "drop-in" LFP batteries that have internal BMS are not viewable from anything.
1. This creates an issue when you're trying to troubleshoot a system.
2. ABYC requirements have a lot to say about BMS communication and alerting when on a marine system. No com's, NOT APPROVED!!! This can also be an issue when you want ins. as well...

For me, it was all about integration and not having 3, 4, 5 different system interfaces I needed to monitor. Victron VRM makes it super simple. Displays data from BOTH the other manf.'s equipment.

On to the batteries!!!

This is going to be an area where you need to decide what your comfortable with.

1. "Drop-ins" - tend to "seem" like the easiest solution, but can have a lot of hidden trouble spots and costs that need to be figured in.

Drop-ins also tend to be the much more expensive option when looking at the side-by-side comparisons of batteries and amp hour capacities.

2. DIY battery build - This option gives you the most flexibility as well as a better $$$-to-amp hour ratio.

DIY options, you need to be comfortable with building these out (not hard, plenty of videos on how to do it). Just don't rush it, follow ALL the steps...

You can buy cells from reputable sources like the Winston brands and you will 100% get what you pay for. They are a ROCK SOLID battery cell and they tend to underrate vs. overrate their cells. But with a "brand name" comes the cost of doing so...

You can also find quality cells on Aliexpress/Alibaba but you have to look a little deeper and read the actual reviews, NOT the ones the seller posts on their ads.

Also, w/ the Ali options, look at the specs for battery weights. You can scroll through a ton of options. For example, I just looked at 3 batteries on Ali.

320ah - 5.4kg
280ah - 5.07kg
200ah - 5.7kg

Notice anything there?!?! The smallest capacity battery is the heaviest of the 3!!!

What I have been seeing from others and on the forums, the batteries listed at about ~280ah or so, tend to be the most accurate ratings. The ones listed at 300+ - 420ah seem to be coming in around the 280-ish mark.

Look for a seller that has a real store name, not just a number. Look at time in business, how many sales they actually have and ratings...

When I purchased my cells (16x 310ah) back in April, I top balanced them and load/capacity tested each one. My capacities on my "310ah" batteries ranged from 276ah-292ah. Obviously not what I paid for (and was given a partial refund) but still pretty solid upgrade from my 8-100ah AGMs that had about 345ah (usable)... Now I have ~1Kah usable and it's been AWESOME!!! Generator rarely fires up from the Auto-Start, unlike my AGM's about every 4-5 hours (I am power hungry on my boat ~60+ amps constant)...
My cells, as monitored by the REC all stay balanced quite well, usually down to .002-.004 voltage range!

If you want any more info or have any questions, feel free to reach out!

Scott-

 

[Mambo42]

I am busy with the installation of my 8 solar panels (400 Wp each) and they will be connected to batteries built out of Winston Cells. So far I have found Winston cells to be the absolute cheapest option for lithium batteries.
Yes, you will need a BMS and many other control items, but even with those installed you will still be cheaper than buying batteries from a major brand. And the fun part is that also the major brands use Winston Cells most of the times.

You can buy them from this company
https://shop.gwl.eu/Winston-12V-sets/?force_sid=r27cklt24jam3q4dmfmvv3lu1s

 

[Davil1]

Thank you Scottwb96 and Mambo42.

Exactly the info I was interested.

I was not familiar with Winston


Appreciate your taking the time

David

 

[GMS]

We installed a system very similar to the one described by Scottwb96 (wakespeed, Victron, and REC BMS). The system has been an amazing upgrade from AGM or Flooded Lead Acid. The LiFePO4 charge faster and have more usable capacity.

We also purchased cells from AliExpress with mixed results. The cells tested reasonably well and the system works great, but pretty sure they were not 100% new cells (and the vendor switched out cells on my during the purchase process - as it turned out the different cells were a better fit for my installation - so it worked out OK).

I have worked with a close friend on a similar installation using raw cells, and he purchased through Docanpower (https://www.docanpower.com/). They sell CATL, EVE, and CALB cells from US stock that they claim are 100% new. The cells received appeared new and tested out at above the rated AH. I have also seen good reviews of this seller online, but this is my only experience with them.

As Scottwb96 mentions, I would also ONLY recommend going the raw cell LiFePO4 build route if you are willing to do the research and put together a system that addresses control of all charge and discharge sources (Victron/REC/Wakespeed is a great combination, but there are others). I am sure a good system can be put together with good drop-ins like Battleborn, but not sure how you satisfy the ABYC recommendations going that route (e.g., external BMS communication).

We have not run into insurance issues, but worth a check with your agency.

 

[twistedtree]

ABYC requirements have a lot to say about BMS communication and alerting when on a marine system. No com's, NOT APPROVED!!! This can also be an issue when you want ins. as well...

Just to clarify, there is no ABYC requirement for BMS communications. There is a "NOTE" which is explanatory, not a requirement, and it says that a BMS "should" provide a warning before disconnecting. Otherwise every drop in battery would have been rendered non-compliant.


That said, I think a warning signal of some sort is very important, and fully expect it will become a requirement in a later revision of the standard.

 

[Jeff F]

That said, I think a warning signal of some sort is very important, and fully expect it will become a requirement in a later revision of the standard.

Can you explain why you think it's so important?

I understand the potential for damage to the alternator in case of a sudden shutdown. What other potential harms am I missing?


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[Barking Sands]

If you had 6 Chins 100Ah drop in batteries wired in parallel and ONE of the batteries had a BMS malfunction and disconnected there would not be any risk to the alternator or loss of voltage to the system...only slight reduction in capacity...correct? The odds or conditions for all 6 to drop off line?

I am still formulating my approach...but IMO I like the idea of multiple drop in Batteries like the Chins or Ampere Time with separate internal BMS for this reason. At around $300 each they are like building blocks.
I currently have three 100AH Dakota drop ins for my golf cart wired in series. If one of those batteries in the string disconnects the entire pack dies of course. But they have been rock solid for several years. I paid a ton for them when drop ins first were hitting the Market (around $700 each). But the Chins and Ampere time and two dozen others appear to be essentially the same battery.

I also wonder if insurance would baulk more at a home built set up VS something that appeared to "look" like a regular battery.

I am not convinced either way at this point and still deciding on best route. I figure about 2 years before I do the upgrade.

 

[Simi 60]

If you are serious this forum is where you want to be
https://diysolarforum.com/categories/energy-storage.19/

Did a heap of research over several months
Found out who had the knowledge
Followed their proven path

We ended up going with EVE 280 from a well respected Alibaba seller
Paid a slight premium for A Grade matched and batched
Got documentation showing testing on each - all showing higher than 280AH
All serial numbers matched the batteries that arrived and my testing confirmed what the tests said.
Built the batteries 3 x 24v @ 280AH each following the proven and well documented methods found on that forum.

PROFIT

 

[Simi 60]

Just to clarify, there is no ABYC requirement for BMS communications. There is a "NOTE" which is explanatory, not a requirement, and it says that a BMS "should" provide a warning before disconnecting. Otherwise every drop in battery would have been rendered non-compliant.


That said, I think a warning signal of some sort is very important, and fully expect it will become a requirement in a later revision of the standard.

Warning signal would be great
BUT
There is no warning signal on AGM or LA and no one is freaking out

 

[GMS]

Warning signal would be great
BUT
There is no warning signal on AGM or LA and no one is freaking out

I am not aware of any AGM or LA batteries that include circuitry that will suddenly disconnect them from the system. In contrast, that is exactly what all LiFePO4 drop-in batteries will do when they encounter an under or over voltage condition.

It is the sudden disconnection that you need a system to avoid. That system can be redundancy (many batteries in parallel), a system wide BMS, or ????

Well controlled charge and discharge sources should not under normal operating parameters ever cause a battery to drop out of the system - but bad things can happen and something could cause the BMS to disconnect, so best to plan for contingencies.

At a minimum, ABYC is recommending warnings to provide information that allows intervention.

Do you need to go to the lengths of designing your entire electrical system around the batteries, no probably not. For us, we happened to be in a position where we needed a new inverter and were installing an externally controlled alternator - so, it made sense to design the entire system around battery control.

 

[Davil1]

"Warning signal would be great
BUT
There is no warning signal on AGM or LA and no one is freaking out"
===========================================

"I am not aware of any AGM or LA batteries that include circuitry that will suddenly disconnect them from the system. In contrast, that is exactly what all LiFePO4 drop-in batteries will do when they encounter an under or over voltage condition.

It is the sudden disconnection that you need a system to avoid. That system can be redundancy (many batteries in parallel), a system wide BMS, or ????"
=====================================================
I copy/paste two important opinions that sort of answer my questions regarding the thread I started.

One of the negatives being raised on the lower end cost batteries is poor quality BMS as well as the severe consequences of sudden failure, taking the affected battery out of the charging/discharging loop.

If I understand correctly, the most dreaded event is on the charging stage, where a battery "disappearing suddenly" will affect the charging source and potential damage.

On the discharge stage, well things are not powered, inconvenience by losing functions but not as dramatic.

If what I think to understand is correct, knowing all batteries installed are part of a "bank" installed with 2 or more batteries in parallel, then failure of any individual battery will drop the voltage and power supply, that will prompt me to check the bank, identify the failing battery, take it out of the bank, reconnect the remaining batteries and functions are now restored.

Not big deal for me, house bank is 4 batteries, can take anyone, even 2 out of the system.

If my line of reasoning is correct, you have answered one of the most significant concerns.
__________________

 

[Jeff F]

If you had 6 Chins 100Ah drop in batteries wired in parallel and ONE of the batteries had a BMS malfunction and disconnected there would not be any risk to the alternator or loss of voltage to the system...only slight reduction in capacity...correct? The odds or conditions for all 6 to drop off line?

I've thought that as well. But you'd have to have some way of recognizing when one is disconnected and act on it.

In a condition like uncontrolled charging causing a high voltage shutdown it's easy to imagine a cascading failure as they trip one by one until none are left. Same with a low voltage shutdown. Functionally that doesn't seem any different to me than having a single BMS, unless you're going to trigger some alert based on monitoring individual batteries.



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[Simi 60]

I am not aware of any AGM or LA batteries that include circuitry that will suddenly disconnect them from the system. In contrast, that is exactly what all LiFePO4 drop-in batteries will do when they encounter an under or over voltage condition.
.

Our inverter, which runs the boat and our batteries are connected to shuts down if there is undervoltage be it AGM, LA or Lifepo4.

No warning apart from the seperate low voltage alarm which has a rather low volume.
The same alarm is used on our lifepo4 setup as well as an alarm set for 35%

Reality as a full time cruiser is I check the charge and % several times a day using the app for the BMS we use on the tablet I type this post on.
Takes a few seconds

 

[Barking Sands]

I've thought that as well. But you'd have to have some way of recognizing when one is disconnected and act on it.

In a condition like uncontrolled charging causing a high voltage shutdown it's easy to imagine a cascading failure as they trip one by one until none are left. Same with a low voltage shutdown. Functionally that doesn't seem any different to me than having a single BMS, unless you're going to trigger some alert based on monitoring individual batteries.



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I was actually contemplating getting the drop in batteries with bluetooth so they could be monitored. Some also have a USB output. If the USB output shuts off with the BMS you could simply have a USB light on each battery or a panel. Or something fancier such as a relay and light/buzzer.

As for overvoltage condition even my middle of the road Balmar MC-618 can set an alarm for under volt and overvolt conditions. So you can set those just under the disconnect parameters of the battery. I am sure Wakespeed and others have similar settable parameters for warnings. I would think a good Inverter/charger or other add ons would also have such warnings like a Victron unit. But the main concern appears to be targeted towards a disconnect when the alternator is in use and the vessel underway. So External regulator just needs settable alarms for over/under volt.

Honestly I havent even begun to think about this in earnest. But I just get an initial feeling the worries are overblown and the solution will be readily available when I finally get to that project. Hopefullly you guys will have it all figured out by then

 

[Simi 60]

. But I just get an initial feeling the worries are overblown and the solution will be readily available when I finally get to that project. Hopefullly you guys will have it all figured out by then

Others have been using them for ten years or more so yes, I think the worries are overblown.

 

[twistedtree]

Can you explain why you think it's so important?

I understand the potential for damage to the alternator in case of a sudden shutdown. What other potential harms am I missing?


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Shutting down an alternator is an obvious use. But in general and alarm to let you know that something isn't working right and is heading for a shutdown which is a measure of last resort. Pulling the plug on your DC power system is pretty anti-social behavior, and to be avoided at all costs. It should never happen under any sort of normal conditions, and if you are inching your way towards a shut down, something is very wrong. I woudl think any boat operator would want a warning so there is some time, even if brief, to take action, whether it's shutting down a charger that hasn't stopped on its own, turning off loads that are dragging a battery towards an unsafe or destructive state, or merely a queue that it's time to start the generator. External BMSes typically have such signals, and so-called drop-in typically do not.

 

[twistedtree]

If you had 6 Chins 100Ah drop in batteries wired in parallel and ONE of the batteries had a BMS malfunction and disconnected there would not be any risk to the alternator or loss of voltage to the system...only slight reduction in capacity...correct? The odds or conditions for all 6 to drop off line?

If the cause is an external load or an external charger, which in my experience are the two most likely things to drive an LFP battery to shutdown, I think the likelihood of the shutdown propagating to the other batteries is very high, if not a certainty.

 

[twistedtree]

Warning signal would be great
BUT
There is no warning signal on AGM or LA and no one is freaking out

That's right, and it indeed begs the question why it's so important on Li-ion batteries. In many cases it's about asset protection. At least historically, li-ion batteries have been very expensive. And unlike lead batteries mistreatment will kill them dead, game over, no recovery.


But more importantly, the BMS protection is about safety, and disconnects the battery if it gets driven to an unsafe condition. It's greater protection that what's applied to lead batteries, but the risks are also higher, especially with certain li-ion chemistries.

 

[twistedtree]

If what I think to understand is correct, knowing all batteries installed are part of a "bank" installed with 2 or more batteries in parallel, then failure of any individual battery will drop the voltage and power supply, that will prompt me to check the bank, identify the failing battery, take it out of the bank, reconnect the remaining batteries and functions are now restored.

Probably not. LFP batteries hold their voltage very steady over a wide range of loads, so dropping one battery out of a parallel set will have a minimal effect on the voltage, and I think be pretty hard to detect in practice.

 

[Davil1]

Probably not. LFP batteries hold their voltage very steady over a wide range of loads, so dropping one battery out of a parallel set will have a minimal effect on the voltage, and I think be pretty hard to detect in practice.

===========================
interesting, was thinking in terms of a set of regular batteries, where a bad battery drives the voltage down for the rest.
In that case will be very hard to assess a drop on voltage.

 

[Jeff F]

Shutting down an alternator is an obvious use. But in general and alarm to let you know that something isn't working right and is heading for a shutdown which is a measure of last resort. Pulling the plug on your DC power system is pretty anti-social behavior, and to be avoided at all costs. It should never happen under any sort of normal conditions, and if you are inching your way towards a shut down, something is very wrong. I woudl think any boat operator would want a warning so there is some time, even if brief, to take action, whether it's shutting down a charger that hasn't stopped on its own, turning off loads that are dragging a battery towards an unsafe or destructive state, or merely a queue that it's time to start the generator. External BMSes typically have such signals, and so-called drop-in typically do not.

Thanks. Fully agree on the need for identifying and acting on abnormal conditions before the BMS trips. I guess I'm wondering about the advantages of triggering alerts from the BMS vs a Cerbo GX or similar.

Full disclosure: I recently bought two 12v 300ah Ampere Time batteries and wired them in series for my house bank. Each has a 200a BMS. They were about $1,100 each.
I can't say anything negative about the experience so far.

I had a bit of hesitation with the dumb drop-in solution, but the price was reasonable and it was easy. I guess that's what this thread is about.

I rationalized it as follows:
- my system is designed for 200a max
- I monitor voltage and current, and understand how batteries and systems work.
- I have Victron MPPT and Multiplus charging and Balmar regulator, and am comfortable with configuring them.

Basically I'm comfortable using dumb batteries because I have smart reliable components ensuring that they don't approach their limits. Having two batteries avoids the case where a battery or BMS failure takes out the bank or the alternator.



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[twistedtree]

===========================
interesting, was thinking in terms of a set of regular batteries, where a bad battery drives the voltage down for the rest.
In that case will be very hard to assess a drop on voltage.

Exactly. I think the only way you could do it reliably would be with current sensing on each battery, and looking for one that has gone to zero. But that's a lot of external electronics to do that.


This really illustrates the need for all BMSes to have some minimal communications. Even as little as two indicators, one that says the BMS has disconnected, and one that warns that a disconnect is approaching. With just those two signals, you could solve a lot of problems. But alas, they don't exist in most, if not all internal BMSes.

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks. Fully agree on the need for identifying and acting on abnormal conditions before the BMS trips. I guess I'm wondering about the advantages of triggering alerts from the BMS vs a Cerbo GX or similar.

Full disclosure: I recently bought two 12v 300ah Ampere Time batteries and wired them in series for my house bank. Each has a 200a BMS. They were about $1,100 each.
I can't say anything negative about the experience so far.

I had a bit of hesitation with the dumb drop-in solution, but the price was reasonable and it was easy. I guess that's what this thread is about.

I rationalized it as follows:
- my system is designed for 200a max
- I monitor voltage and current, and understand how batteries and systems work.
- I have Victron MPPT and Multiplus charging and Balmar regulator, and am comfortable with configuring them.

Basically I'm comfortable using dumb batteries because I have smart reliable components ensuring that they don't approach their limits. Having two batteries avoids the case where a battery or BMS failure takes out the bank or the alternator.



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The good news is that LFP cells themselves are incredibly stable, and just work day in and day out. And balancing issues are much less than I think most people imagine. I have balanced the cells in my home built battery system (land based, not marine) only once in three years, and it only took about 6ah of charge to bring everything into sync. That's on a 360ah battery bank, and is less than 2%. As long as your chargers are set up correctly, and you don't let the batteries run down to nothing, they just work day in an day out. If a disconnect happens, it's because something has gone very wrong, and needs to be fixed.


As for using a Cerbo or other GX device, I think that will only really work if it's in communications with the BMS or other electronics in the battery. The reason is that a battery can appear to be completely within normal operating range when measured/observed from the outside, but have a single cell inside that is approaching the danger zone. This typically happens if there is a significant imbalance between cells with one that's either very much higher or much lower than the others. This is why per-cell monitoring is required. So the only thing capable of issuing a warning is the thing that is monitoring the individual cells. That's why per-cell monitoring is mandatory in ABYC.

 

[Jeff F]

Exactly. I think the only way you could do it reliably would be with current sensing on each battery, and looking for one that has gone to zero. But that's a lot of external electronics to do that.

My assumption with a two battery bank is that if one went to zero I'd recognize the decreased bank capacity by monitoring voltage during charge/discharge. Presumably I'd hit low voltage alerts on discharge at 50% DoD according to the shunt rather than 100%. So it wouldn't be an immediate or automated notification, but the situation would be hard to miss under my normal usage.

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[Scottwb96]

My assumption with a two battery bank is that if one went to zero I'd recognize the decreased bank capacity by monitoring voltage during charge/discharge. Presumably I'd hit low voltage alerts on discharge at 50% DoD according to the shunt rather than 100%. So it wouldn't be an immediate or automated notification, but the situation would be hard to miss under my normal usage.

With LFP batteries, you can't use voltage as a reliable source of where the battery is in the DoD levels...

 

[Jeff F]

With LFP batteries, you can't use voltage as a reliable source of where the battery is in the DoD levels...

Agree it's less reliable than with other chemistries, but the difference in resting voltage between say 60% vs 10% SoC should be obvious, if you are accustomed to monitoring.

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[Davil1]

most responses on my initial posting are on the BMS issues and possible solutions.

as a refreshing my memory, there were a couple of more concerns, perhaps they are not that important?

--------------------------------------------------------

These are some of the points that try to explain the reasons for price disparity.

Quality of product, such as cells not properly secured, protected and separated inside box.

Type, not all use same technology, been the preferred Prismatic vs Cylindrical.

BMS crucial element and a weak point on lower end prices.(this issue nicely covered)

David

 

[Simi 60]

most responses on my initial posting are on the BMS issues and possible solutions.

as a refreshing my memory, there were a couple of more concerns, perhaps they are not that important?

--------------------------------------------------------

These are some of the points that try to explain the reasons for price disparity.

Quality of product, such as cells not properly secured, protected and separated inside box.

Type, not all use same technology, been the preferred Prismatic vs Cylindrical.

BMS crucial element and a weak point on lower end prices.(this issue nicely covered)

David

Which gets you back to post #9

 

[CharlieJ]

Regarding a warning if a battery or bank is experiencing an issue: we monitor engine oil pressure, engine temperature, shore power voltage and current, etc. Why wouldn't we monitor whether the LFP bank is experiencing an issue and is about to shutdown????