Markel/USAA Insurance Non-Renewal Notice today-

[jefndeb]

Hello,

Bad news seems to come all at one it seems lately.

I just received an this email today from Markel/USAA insurance -

Quote-

-This email notice is being sent to you since this risk no longer meets our yacht program’s windstorm coverage criteria for a tropical depression, tropical storm of hurricane. As such, this policy is scheduled for non-renewal effective 7/8/2024. The formal notice should be mailed out to you by 6/3/2024.

Please contact us if you wish to consider a windstorm included policy with a higher windstorm deductible, with a windstorm haul out condition during a windstorm event (tropical depression, tropical storm or hurricane). The yacht would not be required to be hauled ashore if the yacht was moved outside the windstorm watch or warning area. Coverage would be suspended if the yacht remained afloat while in a windstorm watch or warning area. Please note that we do provide windstorm extra expense coverage, for no additional premium, if a windstorm watch or warning is issued for the area that your yacht is moored, that would reimburse you 50% of your actual haul out expenses, up to a maximum of $1,000 for any one windstorm event, and $2,000 total in any single policy period. A blank windstorm preparation form is attached in case you wish us to review your plans.

Please contact us if you wish to consider a windstorm excluded policy, with a much-reduced annual premium, with a windstorm haul out condition during a windstorm event (tropical depression, tropical storm or hurricane). The yacht would not be required to be hauled ashore if the yacht was moved outside the windstorm watch or warning area. Coverage would be suspended if the yacht remained afloat while in a windstorm watch or warning area. Windstorm extra expense coverage is not available for windstorm excluded policies. A blank windstorm preparation form is attached in case you wish us to review your plans.​

I called and a representative there and they suggested I fill out and submit the attached Windstorm Preparedness Plan to be reconsidered? Did I miss that somewhere in the email above??.....what am I missing?

I suppose I am not the first boat owner to get this kick in the shin.....

Suggestions welcome please...

Jeff

 

[Mac2]

There is supposed to be a record amount of hurricanes this year. Gotta keep up with that bottom line.

 

[Comodave]

I have had excellent results with Peter Ricks at Novamar. He participates here as Pau Hana. Maybe give him a call and see if he can help.

 

[ksanders]

So wait a minute...

You are being offered several choices.

1. accept a higher deductible for named storms.
2. warranty that you will Haulout your boat during a named storm, and the insurance company will pay 1/2 the cost of haulout
3. Warranty that you will move your boat out of the storm watch area
4. accept an exclusion for named storm damage.

To me this seems like not a huge problem.

The insurance company wants to lessen their chances of a loss, seems pretty reasonable to me.
I have a $30,000 deductible for named storms. That puts more responsibility on me to prepare.

So...
I moved my boat to a more protected slip for hurricane season.
I bought a dozen extra long lines to secure my boat to the pilings instead of the dock cleats during a storm.
Bought a bunch of extra fenders that I will be securing to the dock just in case my lines stretch too much.
I am also 100% committed to be on the dock fighting to protect my boat and my neighbors boats during a named storm event.

 

[tiltrider1]

I was tHinKing along the same lines as ksanders. Markel is no longer offering your current program. They are offering you a new replacement program. Technically they are just raising your rates but because it is done by changing the deductible they need to cancel your existing policy and issue you a new policy.

 

[Dennis C]

I have been using Progressive and have a quote with Progressive with my new boat. They have increased the deductible for named storms. But I can still keep the boat behind my house.

 

[SteveK]

I find this interesting reading. my renewal came with increased liability amount and $112 higher premium.
Any chance you guys (other than Kevin) tell us where you are when comparing apples to oranges. I would like to see a comparative for location.

 

[O C Diver]

Frankly, I'm surprised insurance companies haven't done this sooner. Lots of boats were destroyed in SWFL from hurricane Ian. Lots of people simply left there boats in place with the notion, "Eh, it's insured". I can see this motivating people to have a real storm plan.

Would really like to see this for other movable assets like automobiles. Car insurance in Fort Myers has gone up significantly to cover the costs of people too stupid (or just wanting a new car) to move their cars out of Ian's flood surge. To put this in perspective, 5 to 10 miles inland at a shopping mall or big box store, would have been all that was necessary.

Really don't like people too lazy to protect their assets, that in turn drives my premiums up.

Ted

 

[Sealife]

I'm going through the same thing. Markel is my underwriter. Gowrie is the agent. It was "the jackline policy" that Al started years ago. Now it has a new name and less coverage.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

It won't be long before folks that have older boats will simply stop caring insurance.

 

[rslifkin]

It won't be long before folks that have older boats will simply stop caring insurance.

Realistically, if I had the money in the bank to comfortably replace the boat, I'd drop to liability only. Only reason I carry full coverage is that if we lost the boat for some reason, we'd be out of boating for a while for financial reasons without insurance.

 

[Bud]

Frankly, I'm surprised insurance companies haven't done this sooner. Lots of boats were destroyed in SWFL from hurricane Ian. Lots of people simply left there boats in place with the notion, "Eh, it's insured". I can see this motivating people to have a real storm plan.

Would really like to see this for other movable assets like automobiles. Car insurance in Fort Myers has gone up significantly to cover the costs of people too stupid (or just wanting a new car) to move their cars out of Ian's flood surge. To put this in perspective, 5 to 10 miles inland at a shopping mall or big box store, would have been all that was necessary.

Really don't like people too lazy to protect their assets, that in turn drives my premiums up.

Ted

Dido on that.

 

[Delta Riverat]

It won't be long before folks that have older boats will simply stop caring insurance.

That would be me. Liability only since the day I bought it. Progressive (Motorcycles & Boats for years) would not insure damage or loss for what I bought it for. That was 2 and a half years ago.

No big deal, it's good enough for the marina where I dock.

 

[Blissboat]

I find this interesting reading. my renewal came with increased liability amount and $112 higher premium.
Any chance you guys (other than Kevin) tell us where you are when comparing apples to oranges. I would like to see a comparative for location.

Location info, such as at least the state and preferably the city / metro area would be useful in assessing topics such as this one. The previous version of TF used to have that available at a glance, and I have been wondering why it no longer is.

 

[STB]

Really don't like people too lazy to protect their assets, that in turn drives my premiums up.

Ted,

It isn't about being lazy. There is a shortage of slips in the area on the best of days. And boatyards are booked months out and busy.

When storms come by, there isn't nearly enough space on land nor enough boatyard throughout to haul many more than they normally do anyway. Call around as one may, dry storage just for a storm is unlikely.

As for wet slips that are significantly safer than most during storms, there are some inland, but not nearly enough and my trawler can't usually get there in time at trawler speeds, anyway.

I guess I could rent a storm slip year round to have it on standby, or I could avoid the Florida coast most of the summer and fall. But the QST us cost prohibitive and the 2nd is purpose-prohibitive.

Instead, I strip the boat down during storms to reduce its wind profile and prevent anything otherwise stored outside from flying off and damaging anyone else's boat, strap down anything that isn't removable, fender off and tie up for the storm, and hope for the best.

If the marina is still here after the storm, my boat will be, too. If not, then my boat is probably among the least expensive concerns the insurers have in the area.

Nothing lazy about it.

 

[O C Diver]

Ted,

It isn't about being lazy. There is a shortage of slips in the area on the best of days. And boatyards are booked months out and busy.

When storms come by, there isn't nearly enough space on land nor enough boatyard throughout to haul many more than they normally do anyway. Call around as one may, dry storage just for a storm is unlikely.

As for wet slips that are significantly safer than most during storms, there are some inland, but not nearly enough and my trawler can't usually get there in time at trawler speeds, anyway.

I guess I could rent a storm slip year round to have it on standby, or I could avoid the Florida coast most of the summer and fall. But the QST us cost prohibitive and the 2nd is purpose-prohibitive.

Instead, I strip the boat down during storms to reduce its wind profile and prevent anything otherwise stored outside from flying off and damaging anyone else's boat, strap down anything that isn't removable, fender off and tie up for the storm, and hope for the best.

If the marina is still here after the storm, my boat will be, too. If not, then my boat is probably among the least expensive concerns the insurers have in the area.

Nothing lazy about it.

STB, my post wasn't directed at you personally.

But, yes there are or were a lot of very lazy people in the surrounding Fort Myers area that left their boats in harms way. The Fort Myers area is truly blessed to have the Okeechobee waterway for hurricane evacuation. It's 117 nautical miles from my slip in Fort Myers to Stuart. It routinely takes 2 days at 7 knots to cross. These aren't marathon days as the locks generally only operate between 7am and 4:30pm. Once across the state, one can usually get a mooring in Stuart or Jensen Beach. For those that want to anchor out, there are a number of places to hide.

In 2022 the last hurricane (Nicole) of the Florida season was scheduled to hit Stuart on November 9th. I was anchored in Stuart on the 7th and tied to the Moore Haven dock on the 8th at 10pm. There were 40 boats waiting at the St. Lucie lock at 7am (likely the last day before the locks shutdown). While some were crossing to the West coast, many were hauling out at the new boatyard East of Indiantown. As so many boats were crossing to escape Nicole, the Army Corps of Engineers extended locking till 11pm (Tip of the hat for a command decision by a government employee). Moore Haven is a great place to escape a hurricane. Could easily have tied between the St. Lucie dolphins above the lock, Port Mayaca dolphins, or the Clewiston dolphins.

Lots of places along the Okeechobee waterway to wait out a hurricane, if you don't wait till the last day and have a real boat evacuation plan.

Ted

 

[STB]

Ted,

Until a couple of hours, tops, before that storm made an unexpected and unpredicted turn and destroyed the Fort Meyers barrier islands, it was predicted to make landfall and do the same in the vicinity of Clearwater Beach, FL.

I could have anchored up the Anclote River, or possibly even Salt Creek, or in the middle of Tampa Bay, or maybe just the harbor. Some did. But managed storage of any kind wasn't available. And up the Anclote driver is exactly where the last hurricane to hit the Tampa area went. That didn't feel like good luck!

And it isn't clear that those anchorages were any better. Doing something may feel empowering, but it isn't always doing something useful. Ask all those boaters who broke anchor and lost their boats, or worse lost their boats while damaging boats they blew into, during that storm. There were quite a few.

Based upon the prediction cone about a day out, I actually considered heading south toward Fort Meyers, because the odds there were looking better there.

Instead, I prepped my boat and prepped a couple of neighbors' boats, right where they were. My boat was as well prepared as one could be for such a thing. If the marina was still there, the boat would be there and afloat, too.

I left, when the police came by to tell me this was the real thing and it was time to go. I was hoping that storm would turn late and hit some less inhabited area nearer the panhandle.

I left my generator and cameras running and online. From one moment to the next, I resonated between expecting to see another storm mostly blow over or the beginnings of the destruction of a place I've known since childhood.

That storm's path was bad luck for Fort Meyers and good luck for Clearwater, but a blessing for no one.

My point is that the folks in Fort Meyers had less of a reason to evacuate than folks 150 miles north or, even, 300 miles south.

Only so many people can move their boats. And even doing that is trading risk. That was expected to be me, not them. And I had no good options. Only a bunch of ways of trading risk.

P.S. The old salts around here credit a Tocobaga blessing:
- https://myq105.com/2023/08/29/tampa-tocobaga-tribe/

 

[mvweebles]

Re: Liability only insurance. I've carried Liability only insurance through Mexico via Chubb. Now that I'm at the gates of Central America, I was hoping to get liability-only for the rest of my trip to Florida. Surprisingly, I have not found an insurance company eager to write a liability policy. I found one that was a 20% discount off full-coverage which isn't a deal.

The great savings for liability insurance has proved elusive to me, at least in Central America. Any tips would be welcome (don't bother recommending Peter/Pau Hana at Novamar/Seattle - he was a total flake after several attempts email and phone).

Peter

 

[O C Diver]

Ted,

Until a couple of hours, tops, before that storm made an unexpected and unpredicted turn and destroyed the Fort Meyers barrier islands, it was predicted to make landfall and do the same in the vicinity of Clearwater Beach, FL.

I could have anchored up the Anclote River, or possibly even Salt Creek, or in the middle of Tampa Bay, or maybe just the harbor. Some did. But managed storage of any kind wasn't available. And up the Anclote driver is exactly where the last hurricane to hit the Tampa area went. That didn't feel like good luck!

And it isn't clear that those anchorages were any better. Doing something may feel empowering, but it isn't always doing something useful. Ask all those boaters who broke anchor and lost their boats, or worse lost their boats while damaging boats they blew into, during that storm. There were quite a few.

Based upon the prediction cone about a day out, I actually considered heading south toward Fort Meyers, because the odds there were looking better there.

Instead, I prepped my boat and prepped a couple of neighbors' boats, right where they were. My boat was as well prepared as one could be for such a thing. If the marina was still there, the boat would be there and afloat, too.

I left, when the police came by to tell me this was the real thing and it was time to go. I was hoping that storm would turn late and hit some less inhabited area nearer the panhandle.

I left my generator and cameras running and online. From one moment to the next, I resonated between expecting to see another storm mostly blow over or the beginnings of the destruction of a place I've known since childhood.

That storm's path was bad luck for Fort Meyers and good luck for Clearwater, but a blessing for no one.

My point is that the folks in Fort Meyers had less of a reason to evacuate than folks 150 miles north or, even, 300 miles south.

Only so many people can move their boats. And even doing that is trading risk. That was expected to be me, not them. And I had no good options. Only a bunch of ways of trading risk.

P.S. The old salts around here credit a Tocobaga blessing:
- https://myq105.com/2023/08/29/tampa-tocobaga-tribe/

Approximately 4 or 5 days out, it was expected to be a 3+ hurricane that was very likely to make landfall on the West coast of Florida. At that time, they were already talking potential storm surge from Naples to Pensacola. That would have been the point where I would have left Fort Myers and gone to Moore Haven.

If someone is in Fort Myers and a cat 3 hurricane is going to pass around 100 miles offshore with a significant storm surge, shame on them if they do nothing.

Irma and Ian were the wakeup calls. Insurance probably needs to go to "no coverage for named storms below Savannah" and additional coverage at a 5% additional premium for total loss value for named storms, for people who want it.

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

Or one can boat elsewhere than FL Hurricane country. Option 2, follow Ted’s advice religiously, Option 3, get a trailer boat. Option 4, weigh the lesser insurance coverage or self insure.

 

[ksanders]

It won't be long before folks that have older boats will simply stop caring insurance.

For every person there is a number that they are willing to assume the risk.

 

[ksanders]

here's a great example of lazy

Last year we rented our slip out for the summer and the person in that sllip tied up their boat with the normal number of lines and left.

They did nothing to protect their boat.

their boat was the only boat in the harbor to be damaged.

Absent owners are the biggest problem we see in Mexico. if you were there protecting your boat unless the entire marina is destroyed, you're not going to lose your boat

 

[psneeld]

I am with Ted (OCDiver) on this one. Lazy or less than necessary participant I can see too.

1. Some people don't bother to learn better ways to tie up boats for strong storms.
2. Many don't even take down canvas or get someone to do it (one of the expensive and common insurance claims even out of hurricane areas).
3. Too many people believe the 6PM weather person and of course it's too late to do anything. Actions, plans and decisions all have to be way out ahead of "hurricane warnings". Not saying it's always possible, but many times it is.
....there is a long list of what people do and don't do for hurricane preparedness.... but ultimately if you live where strikes are common, expect to pay outrageous insurance for loss. The answer of "but that's where I live and I want a boat and I don't want to move it hundreds of miles away" just doesn't cut it.

I too almost dropped to liability only (with oil spill/salvage coverage) when insurance started to go crazy and liveaboard slips were vaporizing by the day. But I just looked at the long run and like most things in life...when they become too hard or expensive....I changed my options and sold the big boat.

For those left living and boating in Florida.... it's going to get worse before better.

 

[STB]

It is certainly the case that there is some room within a day or two for most folks along the gulf coast to anchor a boat that is relatively more hurricane safe than a marina along the coast or on a barrier island.

There is certainly not enough room at such places for all of the boat's above trailer size along the gulf coast. There are a phenomenon number of such boats along the gulf coast of Florida.

For a retired local boater, game on. Enjoy the trip. The limited space is yours.

But, for a working not-always-local boater, that's just not happening for every major storm. Guess that's good for the retired locals.

At my present marina, ~50% of the boaters have primary homes out of state. Overwhelmingly, maybe 80%, are not retired or otherwise not working.

My last marina was much larger, sonai can't count out the slips in my head, but I estimate the numbers to have been about the same.

That would be a lot of people not boating if that was where the barrier were set.

The reality is that I'll likely continue to aggressively prepare the boat in-place for major storms. And, I'll bet that is plenty good. I suspect I'll die with the boat still cruising the coast without a storm claim ever being filed and my years of premiums will largely have paid for lack of maintenance and failed bilge pumps on other boats.

I dont know the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if, over any 10 year period, dollars of boat claims related to maintenance dominate claims related to storms. And one of those we can control a lot more than the other.

Again, I totally agree about those that can't be bothered to (themselves or by agent) stow outdoor gear, remove canvas, strap down anything that coukd break loose, and tie up and fender up properly.

But I really don't think all the boat's can realistically fit in nearby hurricane safe anchorages, mooring, or marinas.

 

[psneeld]

At my present marina, ~50% of the boaters have primary homes out of state. Overwhelmingly, maybe 80%, are not retired or otherwise not working.

And they should pay through the nose for insurance on an out of state boat unless they have a local representative that will do mandatory prep work.
Ya gotta pay to play... insurance policies never ascertain a persons true ability to care for a boat so an absent owner would be a prime target.

 

[O C Diver]

There is certainly not enough room at such places for all of the boat's above trailer size along the gulf coast. There are a phenomenon number of such boats along the gulf coast of Florida.

At my present marina, ~50% of the boaters have primary homes out of state. Overwhelmingly, maybe 80%, are not retired or otherwise not working.

The reality is that I'll likely continue to aggressively prepare the boat in-place for major storms. And, I'll bet that is plenty good. I suspect I'll die with the boat still cruising the coast without a storm claim ever being filed and my years of premiums will largely have paid for lack of maintenance and failed bilge pumps on other boats.

Again, I totally agree about those that can't be bothered to (themselves or by agent) stow outdoor gear, remove canvas, strap down anything that coukd break loose, and tie up and fender up properly.

But I really don't think all the boat's can realistically fit in nearby hurricane safe anchorages, mooring, or marinas.

STB as I said earlier, this isn’t personal or about you, as you make the effort to do something . This is about those that don't.

The argument that there isn't enough safe space for the out of town boater is meaningless. Keep the boat somewhere else during hurricane season; find a safe place for the inevitable next hurricane; sell the boat. It's pretty safe to say, "it's not if there will be another, but when".

I would like to see Florida require half million dollar liability insurance and wreck removal on vessels over 25', or maybe a sliding scale. Make marinas transfer the information to the state. You need liability insurance to drive a car, no reason it should be any different for a boat. The burden shouldn't be on the local taxpayers to remove uninsured boats.

If insurance companies plan to reduce hull coverage for named storms, this might generate more businesses for land storage during hurricane season.

Ted

 

[hmason]

Can you imagine having your boat hauled for every named storm? Seems like more and more storms are named.

 

[mvweebles]

The better question is where to have it hauled. I've met a few people with annual contracts for haul in event of a storm but that doesn't mean you have a place in line. Boat yards over-sell their available space. No guarantee you'd have a place to haul. When Hurricane Ian looked like it was headed our way, a friend with a very expensive boat wanted to haul at the yard he does $30k/year with. In a nice way, they laughed at idea they might have space for his boat.

There are many more marinas than boat yards. Wonder what the insurance language is if you try to haul but there's no room at the inn....

Peter

 

[STB]

Ted,

I'm not taking anything personally. I'm just very surprised.

Unlike residences, there is no statutory risk pool for boats in Florida. My rates relate to my vessel's risk. And yours relate to your vessels risks, etc. They aren't pooled together.

My insurance company knows where I live. They know where my boat lives. They know that I'm not a liveaboard. They know exactly where my boat is likely to be during a storm. They know I'm not expected to move it for a storm. They know the liklihood of storms and their intensity, at least as well as anyone does.

I got a discount for diesel engines (vs gas) and a boaters safety course and for being at a marina with 24 hour staffing and for my claim history, etc. And, curiously enough, for not being a liveaboard. I got charged extra for living far away and, for a while, for my lack of experience. And so on.

My rates have very little to do with yours. And, given the risks I've ask my insurer to accept, I am quite happy with my rates.

If your rates seem to incorporate more risk than you think they should, it is probably because the insurance company is estimating your success in protecting your boat more modestly than you are. That has little to do with any other class of boater, except maybe those nearby without liability (e.g., folks without insurance travelling and anchoring next to you during the storm).

You can try a different insurer, but if they are all less confident in you than you, you can, as you suggest, self-insure and accept the risk.

Maybe you know something they all don't. Maybe they know something you don't. I can't say. But beating nature is often harder than it seems, at least to me.

As for moving boats, only what is possible is possible. The amount of safe river that can be reached within the time window is shorter than the coastline. And that coastline has about as many unteailerable boats as ants.

Be glad others don't move their boats more often...leaves the space available for you and less likely to be a disaster full of folks who don't normally anchor and now need to do so for weather.

 

[STB]

The better question is where to have it hauled. I've met a few people with annual contracts for haul in event of a storm but that doesn't mean you have a place in line. Boat yards over-sell their available space. No guarantee you'd have a place to haul. When Hurricane Ian looked like it was headed our way, a friend with a very expensive boat wanted to haul at the yard he does $30k/year with. In a nice way, they laughed at idea they might have space for his boat.

There are many more marinas than boat yards. Wonder what the insurance language is if you try to haul but there's no room at the inn....

Peter

Hi Peter,

I had almost that same reaction last season.

The reality means I have to self-insure the risk of being in the marina for the storm, or pay for an insurance companynto insure it.

As it turns out, I think their rates are pretty good -- I keep buying.

(And, as I mentioned, I do everything I can to secure it in place, because aid rather have it than its dollar value)