My John Deere decided to take some time off

[rgano]

Why isn't VIBRATION considered an issue here, especially with the ECM mounted on the engine? Maybe that's why folks with them mounted remotely are seeing less problems. Enjoyed my old Ford-Lehmans and now my non-electronic Yanmar.

 

[Insequent]

Why isn't VIBRATION considered an issue here, especially with the ECM mounted on the engine? Maybe that's why folks with them mounted remotely are seeing less problems. Enjoyed my old Ford-Lehmans and now my non-electronic Yanmar.

Glad you raised that...

In my earlier post I was referring to my Stbd engine. Its engine ECM is mounted away from the engine, but the pump's ECM is on the pump itself. However, its a different pump to the one Ted has.

A few years ago I had an issue with my Port engine stopping, and Rich's post reminded me of it. There is a relay in the harness going to the pump. Vibration caused an internal failure in the relay, that was intermittent. We got lucky troubleshooting that reasonably quickly......

Ted, if you have a relay try another one. They are not JD parts, NAPA would carry them.

 

[O C Diver]

Glad you raised that...

In my earlier post I was referring to my Stbd engine. Its engine ECM is mounted away from the engine, but the pump's ECM is on the pump itself. However, its a different pump to the one Ted has.

A few years ago I had an issue with my Port engine stopping, and Rich's post reminded me of it. There is a relay in the harness going to the pump. Vibration caused an internal failure in the relay, We got lucky troubleshooting that reasonably quickly......

Ted, if you have a relay try another one. They are not JD parts, NAPA would carry them.

There's no relay. ECM tells the pump to inject, how much, and adjusts its timing.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Why isn't VIBRATION considered an issue here, especially with the ECM mounted on the engine? Maybe that's why folks with them mounted remotely are seeing less problems.

Do you have a source for that specific to my ECM?

Not saying vibration couldn't be a contributing factor, but 60 hours without a hiccup dosen't make it a strong contender IMO.

Ted

 

[rgano]

Do you have a source for that specific to my ECM?

Not saying vibration couldn't be a contributing factor, but 60 hours without a hiccup dosen't make it a strong contender IMO.

Ted

Combined with the heat? Who knows. Gotta love these "improvements."

 

[Bmarler]

Just because they haven’t had an ecm failure doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Someone has to have the first failed unit.
Potted electronics are indeed very durable, but there are lots of things that can go wrong in there and are impossible to diagnose. It’s a shame they don’t have a loaner ecm you could try.

 

[Blissboat]

This is making the old Lehmans look pretty good.
https://everythingaboutboats.org/lehman-6d380/

That link is the the most comprehensive resource on Lehmans I have ever seen.

 

[O C Diver]

Just because they haven’t had an ecm failure doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Someone has to have the first failed unit.
Potted electronics are indeed very durable, but there are lots of things that can go wrong in there and are impossible to diagnose. It’s a shame they don’t have a loaner ecm you could try.

I'm fully aware that it could be the ECM. The vast majority of the time it tends to be corrosion related as the circuit isn't open, it has to much resistance.

While a loaner ECM would be nice, with intermittent problems, it's hard to know if you've fixed the problem if you can't identify which component is the cause.

Ted

 

[Blissboat]

Heat will not make a significant difference in resistance. Look elsewhere.

Not an electrical engineer, but that assertion is counter to everything I have learned at the School of Frustrating Electrical Gremlins. See this link:

Hot and Cold

Heat may or may not prove to be related in Ted's issue, but it seems as though reducing the temperature of the electrical components could do no harm. E.g., if an extended harness would allow relocation of the ECM to a location further from the heat and vibration on the engine itself, creating no additional complications, why not?

 

[MacPhid]

Is it possible there is a cold solder joint on the board caused by heat/ vibration resulting in an intermittent open circuit? Moving the board off the engine likely would have helped as would the cooler water/air temps in Lake Superior. Might be possible to open up and inspect the circuit board?

James

 

[Jeff F]

In summary, I put 60 hours on the pump and ECM without issue. I'm inclined to think I have a connection (resistance in the system) issue. It's been frustrating to not be able to find an obvious problem.
Ted

The problem seems obvious to me. You have a failing high pressure control valve. That's what the computer is telling you. I haven't heard any evidence to suggest a failing ECM apart from temperature, which could well be within normal range.

Sure, ECMs fail. The tech who replaced mine had replaced one on farm equipment a few months prior. But I suspect pump failures are more common than ECM failures.

There are four connections between the pump and the ECM. At some point you have to consider other possibilities.

I'll shut up now.

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[O C Diver]

The problem seems obvious to me. You have a failing high pressure control valve. That's what the computer is telling you. I haven't heard any evidence to suggest a failing ECM apart from temperature, which could well be within normal range.

Sure, ECMs fail. The tech who replaced mine had replaced one on farm equipment a few months prior. But I suspect pump failures are more common than ECM failures.

There are four connections between the pump and the ECM. At some point you have to consider other possibilities.

I'll shut up now.

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

Ok, for the sake of discussion, please explain to me why it ran flawlessly for 60 hours.

The explanation I got from Bob was:

The solenoid on the back of the pump is not a fuel rack solenoid or an on/off solenoid like other rotary pumps. It turns on for no more than 300 milliseconds to control the timing and fuel quantity sent to each injector nozzle.

I'm finding it hard to believe the solenoid is going through around tens million pulses (in 60 hours) has a few hiccups, then goes back to working flawlessly.

Ted

 

[Jeff F]

I don't think anyone would be shocked at pump issues at 5000 hrs, whether electronically controlled or not. Ultimately the pump is doing high precision work that can be degraded by dirt or corrosion, or just wear and tear. Intermittent alarms seem to me to be consistent with some types of failure.

My objection to the system on our engine is mostly that there are very few repair shops that are able to rebuild the IP, because of licencing restrictions on the software required for calibration. See also https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66608

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[Jeff F]

I should add that I replaced both my ECU and pump, and they were both around the same parts cost. Swapped the pump myself, paid JD dealer about $600 to swap the ECM.

There should be rebuilt pumps ready to go at reasonable cost. I got one in two days.

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[FWT]

Deere equipment and farmers was raised earlier. This is purely in response to that.

I grew up in an ag community and still have close friends who are farmers. They are intensely frustrated with Deere. They share email stories of the "share my pain" sort, like a picture of a specialized bolt with the question "Guess how much", and the answer turns out to be something absurd like $1500. For a bolt. One friend has permanently parked an expensive very large zero turn mower with hydraulic lifts for wing blades that lower, because the hydraulic lift pump failed and the repair quote was more than half as much as a new mower. This broken mower being 2 years old.

Deere ag equipment is easily the most sophisticated, most expensive, and most productive of the brands out there. The debate in the ag community is whether they are making more from the productivity or just handing that to Deere in purchase and repair costs.

No, the farmers cannot do much to fix their own equipment anymore. Maybe the legal news will change that. Yes, when the equipment breaks down that's a crisis for them and being told it will be two weeks before a tech can come fix it is not well received. Things break in use, and the farmers are all using the gear in the same weather windows. Repair techs are in short supply just when most needed.

I strongly suspect the experiences and opinions will vary widely from dealer to dealer, because that's the link between the manufacturer and customer that has to be rock solid for the business model to work.

None of this is a knock on Deere marine engines per se. Each brand has issues. Let's not go there on the Volvo thing. Doug just had a Cummins experience. None are immune. I'm just responding to the farmer issue, which is a side issue.

 

[twistedtree]

Deere equipment and farmers was raised earlier. This is purely in response to that.

I grew up in an ag community and still have close friends who are farmers. They are intensely frustrated with Deere. They share email stories of the "share my pain" sort, like a picture of a specialized bolt with the question "Guess how much", and the answer turns out to be something absurd like $1500. For a bolt. One friend has permanently parked an expensive very large zero turn mower with hydraulic lifts for wing blades that lower, because the hydraulic lift pump failed and the repair quote was more than half as much as a new mower. This broken mower being 2 years old.

Deere ag equipment is easily the most sophisticated, most expensive, and most productive of the brands out there. The debate in the ag community is whether they are making more from the productivity or just handing that to Deere in purchase and repair costs.

No, the farmers cannot do much to fix their own equipment anymore. Maybe the legal news will change that. Yes, when the equipment breaks down that's a crisis for them and being told it will be two weeks before a tech can come fix it is not well received. Things break in use, and the farmers are all using the gear in the same weather windows. Repair techs are in short supply just when most needed.

I strongly suspect the experiences and opinions will vary widely from dealer to dealer, because that's the link between the manufacturer and customer that has to be rock solid for the business model to work.

None of this is a knock on Deere marine engines per se. Each brand has issues. Let's not go there on the Volvo thing. Doug just had a Cummins experience. None are immune. I'm just responding to the farmer issue, which is a side issue.

I'm not a farmer, but looking at large Ag operations it seems that the people making money in AG are Deere, Monsanto, and ADM, not the farms.

 

[FWT]

"I'm not a farmer, but looking at large Ag operations it seems that the people making money in AG are Deere, Monsanto, and ADM, not the farms."

Advice from my grandfather to my father, then down to me:

If you want to live poor and die rich be a farmer. If you want to live rich and die poor be a lawyer.

With that I'll stop. I'm following Ted's journey on this with interest and don't want to hijack this.

 

[catalinajack]

I'm not a farmer, but looking at large Ag operations it seems that the people making money in AG are Deere, Monsanto, and ADM, not the farms.

I live in a farming state. Every farm I pass by, and there have been many, the farmhouses are nearly all grand edifices.

 

[Blissboat]

Lifelong farmer in his advancing years won $100 million on a lottery ticket. Asked what he planned to do with his newfound riches, he answered, "I'm just going to stay here and keep right on farming 'til the all money's gone."

The reason so many farmers find that joke hilarious is because it rings true to them.

Okay, now back to Ted's John Deere troubles . . .

 

[dannc]

"I'm not a farmer, but looking at large Ag operations it seems that the people making money in AG are Deere, Monsanto, and ADM, not the farms."

Advice from my grandfather to my father, then down to me:

If you want to live poor and die rich be a farmer. If you want to live rich and die poor be a lawyer.

With that I'll stop. I'm following Ted's journey on this with interest and don't want to hijack this.

That is pretty true for many.

My wife's family had a large farm operation once upon a time. Her great grandmother ran the farm after her husband died and raised three children by herself. She took earning from the farm in good years and expanded and improved their home. The family milled their own lumber for the house, made bricks they used for foundations on barns, and they did not hire help to build anything. Penny saved is a penny earned.

She also was part of owner of various businesses in the area.

I would think they were considered rich, and for that area, they were certainly well off but they did not have the largest home that is for sure, but they had a nice one. Nothing like a home today though.

Over the years, the farm has been divided up amoung children, grand children and now is passing to the great grand children. The land is leased out to a local farmer who is one of the largest in that part of the state. He is not young either, and like many farmers, he is getting up there in age. If one does not inherit the land, I don't see how anyone can start a farm just due to land costs not to mention the cost of equipment.

At this point, once the grand children die off, nobody will live on the farm. The farm house is run down and needs work for lack of money and neglect due to the people living in the home. There are many abandoned homes nearby that were once really, really nice homes, but as land was subdivided by inheritance and with the loss of tobacco income, making a living on these farms is almost impossible. The farms once provided a good living and life for the farmers but even back then, the farmer still had off farm jobs to provide income during the years of crop failures.

The farm still has it's tractor, a Massey Ferguson that has to be close to 50 years old. It has a Perkins engine that just keeps working.

Later,
Dan

 

[FWT]

Dannc: that rings so true. I could respond and agree with so much but I just want to not continue the hijacking I'm guilty of starting.

 

[dannc]

Dannc: that rings so true. I could respond and agree with so much but I just want to not continue the hijacking I'm guilty of starting.

:lol:

I did not want to make my comment, and sorta derail the discussion, but I just had too. :lol:

Later,
Dan

 

[drb1025]

I’m late to the thread. I have the same engines and one would randomly die with less than 100 hours on it. Over a year of continual failures and troubleshooting by JD mechanics, the regional JD rep was informed and asked about a solution. After reviewing all of the steps taken by the mechanics, he approved the replacement of the ecu, wiring harness, and injector pump. Problem solved, whatever it was. The engine was not under warranty and I was not charged for the fix.

 

[Mako]

Well these stories certainly give a guy a warm fuzzy feeling about taking an electronic engine to remote locations all around the world.

(sarcasm)

 

[sunchaser]

Another way to look at it Mako is to embrace PMs to the point that lift pumps, injection pumps, ECUs and harnesses are items to be replaced before failure and saved as RTOs.

 

[rslifkin]

These stories also point out the importance of making sure you have all of the information and tools needed to diagnose an engine (electronic or mechanical) if going to remote areas. You have to be pretty remote before you can't find a way to get a part shipped in (if it's something you can't or don't carry as a spare). But if you can't figure out what's wrong with the thing, there's no hope of fixing it without a few large firings of the parts cannon (not something you want to do in a remote location with expensive shipping, etc.).

For any engine, you want good service manuals with diagnostic information, wiring diagrams, etc. And for electronic engines, having the tools to talk to the ECU is very helpful as well.

 

[O C Diver]

Another update:

Since post #59, I've put another 12 hours on the engine without another hiccup. Not willing to leave a working circuit alone, I disassembled it once again this morning.

I've been in the Houghton marina for a few days and was able to order some Stabilant 22A through Napa auto parts. As it has isopropyl alcohol in it, less expensive means of acquiring it with air shipping aren't available. $102 for 1/2 ounce seems a tad steep, unless it solves the problem.



The three applicator brushes included, probably justify the price.



For those interested in what this does as an enhancer and corrosion inhibiter, this is probably the best explanation I have found:

https://www.posthorn.com/Stab_2.html

So I took everything apart again and thoroughly cleaned everything again with straight contact cleaner again. After allowing all the parts to thoroughly dry, I coated the contact points with Stabilant 22A as I assembled each series of contacts. Then I allowed about an hour for some of the alcohol to evaporate and leave the Stabilant 22 as a residue.

The engine started right up. Allowed it to get up to minimum operating temperature and then proceeded to run it at varying RPMs for a few minutes each to make sure there weren't any issues at any RPM. After a half hour of this I shut it down and am prepared for tomorrow's 14 hour run to Isle Royale.

Ted

 

[porman]

Porsche recommended Stabilant for use on their ECU's and any other connectors in the vehicles. Results were good.

 

[KnotYet]

I believe Stabilant 22A is the same compound that was once sold as 'Tweek" and
often used by audiophiles on their connections.

 

[O C Diver]

I believe Stabilant 22A is the same compound that was once sold as 'Tweek" and
often used by audiophiles on their connections.

Yes, I read that on the Stabilant site.

Ted