Need info on a couple of devices

[DBG8492]

I have a new-to-me Marine Trader I just bought. The previous owner died about 18 months ago, so there's not much info about the systems. There were a lot of sketches and diagrams, but they were unorganized and not much help.

So I am trying to sort through things on my own.

I have most of the electrical system mapped out, but there are two things that I'm unsure of.

In the attached photo, you can see two devices circled in red. I think the one on the right is a shunt between the ProMarine ProIsoCharge "House" output and the solar or maybe it's just a fuse - I'm not sure - that's why I'm asking.

I say it's between the ProIso and the solar because the other device - to the left and also circled in red - is connected to the solar controller by the red wire that runs up the wall just next to it.

I have asked two other boaters I know who have solar, and neither of them knows what these are.

Does anyone know?

These are the last two pieces of the puzzle I need to complete my own map of the system so any help is appreciated.

 

[Max Simmons]

My first guess is the thing on left is a galvonic isolator, althought Ive not heard of one attached to solar system : ) and the thing on the right looks a lot like my fuse for inverter.

 

[Bacchus]

Item on left looks to me like a diode isolator... usually used to provide charging (usually alternator or shore charger) to multiple batty banks. I don't have solar so not sure if they are normally used there or not. Ones I'm familiar with have 3 or more terminals... one (center) is the charge source and the others are the batty banks. Diodes allow current flow in one direction only so the banks are not connected together where one can draw the other down. Diode isolators are old school, have a 1.0V +/- V drop and are inefficient compared to more modern technologies.
Yours doesn't look lije the center terminal us connected and may be disabled from its original purpose?

Hard to tell from the pic on the right but could be a fuse. If it us the plastic cover is removable and should be easy to read the Ampbrating and type of fuse.

 

[psneeld]

Left looks like a battery isolator (can be used for other things)....see picture... and hard to see but I agree the right item looks like a fuse with a clear cover.

 

[Comodave]

Left looks like a battery isolator (can be used for other things)....see picture... and hard to see but I agree the right item looks like a fuse with a clear cover.

Agree.

 

[tiltrider1]

It is definitely not a galvanic isolator. It does look like an ancient battery isolator.

Item on the right is probably a fuse but the photo is so poor I can’t be sure.

 

[DBG8492]

Thanks for all the info - I am betting it's a diode isolator as well - and therefore mis-installed - which would explain why the solar isn't charging all the batteries it's supposed to.

I will run some tests on it tomorrow and and see. Thanks for that.

And I also believe the other one is a fuse - makes sense to have it there.

This boat is something - former owner had her since 2004 and there is some interesting stuff on board. Just wish he was still around to talk about all of it...

I'm probably going to post something else about the electrical system eventually. There's a Freedom 25 inverter/charger hidden in a cubby under the main salon door - took me forever to find it. Took me longer to figure out how it works, even after a lot of RTFM. The Link 2000 panel won't sense any battery voltage even though I can get voltage across every fuse - still get an E-12 error even if I jumper the violet and blue wires...

Regardless, she's in South Florida and we are trying to get her ready to get underway on 28 July - heading towards Beaufort, SC and hoping to continue on to North Carolina to haul her out for massive repairs, cleaning, and painting.

Gonna be a rough trip though considering the sanitation system is basically non-functional. However, the fresh water tanks are surprisingly clean - so at least we will have good clean water once we replace the filters.

Anyway, thanks again for the help.

 

[OldDan1943]

That is a ‘rat’s nest’. Make it look pretty. You will trace the wires and ideally, discover the whys and whats.

 

[MVCalypso]

Do you have the manual for the Link 2000? If not, I can make a copy and send it to you.

Dave

 

[DBG8492]

That is a ‘rat’s nest’. Make it look pretty. You will trace the wires and ideally, discover the whys and whats.

Aye - a rat's nest it is. And there's a spaghetti factory under the helm.

And yes, I have already started diagramming. Attached is the 12v charging system as I have traced it so far.

All 12 batteries - 8 house, two start, and two Windlass/Thruster were all wasted. They sat for 18 months while the estate was in probate - -charger on and no one maintaining them. I replaced them with a single starter battery, two 12-volt house batteries in parallel, and two win/thrust batteries in series.

That should be enough to get us where we're going and on the hard to start work.

*EDIT: After I posted, I realized I'd left off the ground wire between the starter and boat ground. It's there, and I added it to the diagram...

 

[DBG8492]

Do you have the manual for the Link 2000? If not, I can make a copy and send it to you.

Dave

I have the manuals for both the Link 2000 and the Freedom 25.

I traced all the wiring and cleaned all the glass fuses the PO put between the wires that run from the Link to the batteries, and I verified that there's 12V+ across all of them. I even jumpered the blue and violet wires because it said if you only have one Bank, that's the way to do it.

And I ran the reset procedure with shore power disconnected and the Link disconnected from the Freedom 25.

No dice. I still get an E-12 and the Link reports 0 Volts, 0 Amps on both Banks.

I have analog gauges for house and start volts and they work, so the plan is to keep an eye on them and turn the charger on when necessary either in port or on genny. But I know the alternator charges everything and today I am going to re-wire that diode on the solar to try and get that to charge both the house and the start. The windlass/thruster batteries only charge off the alternator feed to the ProIsoCharge.

 

[mvweebles]

Aye - a rat's nest it is. And there's a spaghetti factory under the helm.

And yes, I have already started diagramming. Attached is the 12v charging system as I have traced it so far.

All 12 batteries - 8 house, two start, and two Windlass/Thruster were all wasted. They sat for 18 months while the estate was in probate - -charger on and no one maintaining them. I replaced them with a single starter battery, two 12-volt house batteries in parallel, and two win/thrust batteries in series.

That should be enough to get us where we're going and on the hard to start work.

*EDIT: After I posted, I realized I'd left off the ground wire between the starter and boat ground. It's there, and I added it to the diagram...

I am not familiar with the Proslocharge device. And I'm not the greatest with electrics, but a quick Google on the Proslocharge suggests it has diode "traffic cop" functionality. Curious if the standalone diode on your diagram is necessary?

https://www.amazon.com/PROMARINER-ProMariner-ProIsoCharge-Battery-Isolator/dp/B00LAHD0PO

I would think solar input direct to the Proslocharge - would see it similar to a second alternator, no?

Is thr Proslocharge adjustable for different chemistry of batteries if you add LiFePO4 down the road?

Peter

 

[DBG8492]

I am not familiar with the Proslocharge device. And I'm not the greatest with electrics, but a quick Google on the Proslocharge suggests it has diode "traffic cop" functionality. Curious if the standalone diode on your diagram is necessary?

https://www.amazon.com/PROMARINER-ProMariner-ProIsoCharge-Battery-Isolator/dp/B00LAHD0PO

I would think solar input direct to the Proslocharge - would see it similar to a second alternator, no?

Is thr Proslocharge adjustable for different chemistry of batteries if you add LiFePO4 down the road?

Peter

TBH - I'm unsure why the PO left the isolator between the solar and batteries when he installed the IsoCharge.

If I had to guess, the alternator probably once ran through that same isolator, and he decided to break it out and run them separately when he expanded the original house bank to 8 6-volt batteries.

Maybe he hired the work out and the electricians sold him things he didn't need...

Once we have her on the hard, much of this stuff will be yanked out and replaced with modern equipment and a whole new design.

With the exception of the big switches and any of the larger gauge copper I can salvage, much of the 12-volt wiring will be replaced.

I like the peace of mind that comes with knowing I built something myself and it's well-documented.

 

[Old Sea Dog]

Following as I am in the same situation. Thanks.

 

[Bacchus]

Just a point to consider...
When I was doing away with the original diode isolators that Mainship installed and looking to charge hose/start & thruster banks I contacted ProMariner about the ProIsoCharge unit. I was concerned that if the banks were tied together (charging) when thrusters were activated could that affect their unit. Their advice was not to use their unit in that situation. I ended up using s Sterlung unit after Rod st Compass Marine & Sterling reviewed the application and agreed.
I have more details, b4 & after schematics, etc on my Bacchus website in the projects section if interested.
Only change Ive made since posting is to move my eng start from house to the thruster bank to leave a pure house bank.

 

[DBG8492]

Just a point to consider...
When I was doing away with the original diode isolators that Mainship installed and looking to charge hose/start & thruster banks I contacted ProMariner about the ProIsoCharge unit. I was concerned that if the banks were tied together (charging) when thrusters were activated could that affect their unit. Their advice was not to use their unit in that situation. I ended up using s Sterlung unit after Rod st Compass Marine & Sterling reviewed the application and agreed.
I have more details, b4 & after schematics, etc on my Bacchus website in the projects section if interested.
Only change Ive made since posting is to move my eng start from house to the thruster bank to leave a pure house bank.

That's good info - thanks for that. Seems odd because most people want the engine on using a thruster or windlass - at least on my old sailboat, you had to have the engine running to use the windlass at all...

Maybe I should avoid using either with the engine running and see how it works out. Would hate to blow that thing up out of the gate...

I will take a look at your documentation - thanks for that!

 

[DBG8492]

So for anyone following this who might want to chime in...

We gave the engine a test run today because we did some work on the raw water system. She didn't pass - the new impeller isn't pulling raw water.

She only ran about 15 seconds, and I took the impeller cover off right after to check and a) see if there was water in there and b) see if it was torn up. It seemed okay - all the splines were there - and of course no water...

While in the engine compartment, there were a few whisps of smoke in the air and an odd smell, sort of like burning rubber. I thought it was the impeller, but it didn't even seem that hot.

This situation really freaked out the fiancé. I just started hunting the source.

As the thoughts were flying through my brain, I grabbed one and shouted at her, "Did you turn off the ignition?"

She said no, and reached up and switched it off.

The smoke seemed to go away - again it was just a whisp or two, but then I remembered the Link. I told her to check it and see if the charger was on because we have been keeping it off.

It was on.

Apparently, if you turn on the ignition and start the engine while connected to shore power, it resets the Link, and upon reset, the device starts running the charger if no volts are present. And none are because, for whatever reason, it's not sensing the voltage from any Bank.

So we had a bit of a situation with both the alternator and charger going simultaneously, and somewhere, something got hot.

I worked small boats in the Navy - riverine and coastal stuff - none of our boats required disco from shore power before starting - but we didn't use charger/inverters at all. Never dawned on me to disco or turn the shore power switch off before starting...

Based on my drawing above, I switched the 12BO switch between the Freedom and the batteries to "Off" because that should prevent the Freedom from EVER charging the batteries unless I want them to - which at this point is bordering on never.

Just to double-check - Based on that drawing, does anyone think that will not work?

And yes, I went around and checked everything and didn't find anything out of order. All the fuses were intact, and there were no burned wires. Solar is still working, and the ProIso still comes on when you switch on the ignition.

The smoke seemed to be coming from the starboard side of the engine - which is where the impeller is, but nothing electrical - but like I said - it wasn't even hot - so I don't know.

I just know I don't trust that Freedom 25 - at all...

 

[STB]

There's a lot that I don't understand about that diagram.

-- I don't like that on/off switch on the alternator. I don't see what good can come of that. If the engine is running with that switch in the off position, there is no where for the alternator current to go and the voltage will rise until the internal diode(s) or regulator eats itself. At least that what it looks like to me. I don't know what good can come from its existence.

-- Your thruster has two batteries, seemingly wired in series. The caption is "12v x 2 - Series". Are these two (2) 12v batteries in series for 24v? Or, are they two 6v batteries in series for 12v? If they are 24v, that seems misaligned with the rest of the system. Or, are they two 12v in parallel?

-- What's labeled as a "Diode" seems to have three (3) connections. That doesn't seem like a diode. Does it have any labels? Maybe it is a ACR or battery combiner? Or?

-- What's labelled as a diode seems intended to parallel the house and start batteries when solar is charging and not otherwise.

-- The ProIsoCharge seems to be intended to distribute alternator charging to the three banks.

-- Two switches are labelled "Switch 2", so I'm going to identify the one to the left as "Left" and the one to the right as "Right".

-- The "Left" switch doesn't seem to have a purpose. Whether in position 1 or position 2 it seems to connect the output of the charger to both the starter and start battery. Since the two are connected, it doesn't matter which way it is set. At best, I think this can be set to 1 or 2 to charge the house battery from the Freedom 25 or OFF not to. In the worst case, someone sets it to both and we've got two current paths to the same place. The connection between the start battery and starter can't really be a thin wire. It should easily take charging current. I don't understand.

-- I know that solar panels are current-limited sources and that if the wires are sufficient to carry the full output no fuse is necessary. None-the-less, I still like to have them there, just like any other source. I'd want it after the charge controller.

To your question, there is nothing wrong with multiple sources charging at the same time. Nothing should go wrong if the alternator is running and the genset is powering the charger or the solar is running. Or if the charger is running off dock power at the same time as solar, etc.

But, I am concerned that there was burning....where from? What device? What wire? I doubt it is still healthy. I'm concerned that it it smoking, even at the dock, but no one is down there to notice.

I think I'd want to get rid of the two unnecessary switches, one of which seems possibly dangerous.

I'd also pull out the inverter/charger and bench test it on an old battery. If it is a problem, it is old enough, I'd replace it.


Overall, I'm not sure I know what is going on here. I'd want to triple check the figure first, then address the thruster batteries if needed, then clean up the switches, then check the charger and replace if needed. Given everything else,I'd also check that alternator function and make sure it is charging and not way over voltage.


As for the engine intake, you've to to take that one step-by-step. I think. Is the seacock open? Is water getting to the pump? If not, is water getting to the other side of that hose? Is water coming out of the seacock? Is the path through the seacock to the outside of the hull through the thru-hull open? If you aren't getting gushing water to the pump, I am not surprised there is a problem. Also lube that with glycerine (drug store item), or, at the least, some liquid dish soap right before start-up.

Sorry I can't be more help. Just not sure what is what.

Good luck!

 

[OldDan1943]

A guess, you checked the belts?

 

[DBG8492]

Yes - the wiring is a mess. And the guy who was the last captain has passed away, so he's unavailable for help.

That diagram is what's there - minus my labeling mistakes.

Yes, the thruster/windlass batteries are 24v - two 12v wired in series. They are outliers because the windlass and thruster are 24v.

Yes, that switch on the alternator makes zero sense. Same with the switch between the start battery and the other switch. The only reason I can think of for the latter is to allow the house batteries to be used as start batteries in an emergency.

I don't know what that device labeled "Diode" is - The consensus here was that it was an old-school diode-based isolator. As to why it's there - I don't know. It's also wired wrong if it's an isolator (as you can see in the pictures).

I agree that smoke is bad - and not knowing the source is worse. And the odd thing - as I said - was that the two wisps of smoke I could see were on the starboard side of the engine - and nothing electrical is on that side except an engine room light (12v) in the upper right side of the room. And when I say wisp, I mean wisp - two very faint curls that drifted up into the salon.

I also agree with all the troubleshooting steps needed for the raw water - I just didn't have time to do them. The impeller was installed well-lubricated and was - as I said - turning if you bump the engine with the cover off. Other than changing that impeller and putting a gasket on the cover of the strainer - nothing else was done, and she was drawing water before those three things were done. I simply didn't have time to finish troubleshooting, and I am packing to leave here this morning and drive back north. I am shutting off all power from shore, leaving nothing but the bilge pumps switched on at the house 12v panel.

I'm going to have a mechanic troubleshoot the raw water issue - and have an electrician come down and look at the whole system sometime in the next few weeks before I have to move her. Was trying to avoid spending that money, but have no choice.

Worse comes to worse, I will have to find a place locally to put her and have her towed there to give me more time to complete the work.

 

[DBG8492]

A guess, you checked the belts?

Yes, I did. They're both fairly new and tight.

 

[CarlF]

I assume that Link and charger are 20 years old?. Even if it’s not the source of the smoke, it’s long past its useful life and is a problem waiting to happen. Look at Victron.

 

[DBG8492]

I assume that Link and charger are 20 years old?. Even if it’s not the source of the smoke, it’s long past its useful life and is a problem waiting to happen. Look at Victron.

I agree.

Victron is what I had on my sailboat - I will, in all likelihood, be buying all my gear from them.

 

[brianC]

Has this boat been in the water the whole time (18 plus months)

If yes the raw water intake is possibly plugged up with sea creatures and debris.

Check the strainer and the intake. I’ve seen boats where we had to take off the hose from the seacock. Open seacock and jam a screw driver down there to “free” up the raw water opening.

Then quickly close the seacock, before you flood the boat!

 

[DBG8492]

Has this boat been in the water the whole time (18 plus months)

If yes the raw water intake is possibly plugged up with sea creatures and debris.

Check the strainer and the intake. I’ve seen boats where we had to take off the hose from the seacock. Open seacock and jam a screw driver down there to “free” up the raw water opening.

Then quickly close the seacock, before you flood the boat!

Yes, that's a possibility. The thruster tunnel was full of all manner of things.

However, she was pulling water and running fine when we bought her. The only things we did were clean the sea strainer, change the impeller, heat exchanger, and transmission cooler, and then have a diver clean the bottom.

But - all things considered, I agree with you that we should take the hose off and see.

One other thing - the strainer is above the waterline, while the pump is just below. I am sure this has to make some kind of difference.

We changed our departure date to 31 July to give us three full days of work to get the water flowing, and new alarms wired. I also ordered new belts from American Diesel, so I will go ahead and change those out just to be sure.

 

[danderer]

We gave the engine a test run today because we did some work on the raw water system. She didn't pass - the new impeller isn't pulling raw water.

Many years ago I had a problem where the impeller looked fine but no water flow. Finally in desperation I had my wife crank the engine while I had the cover off the pump to watch. Pump shaft spun fine but the impeller vanes didn't.

Turns out the metal hub of the impeller had separated from the rubber/vanes. This wasn't readily visible.

 

[KnotYet]

Aye - a rat's nest it is. And there's a spaghetti factory under the helm.

And yes, I have already started diagramming. Attached is the 12v charging system as I have traced it so far.

All 12 batteries - 8 house, two start, and two Windlass/Thruster were all wasted. They sat for 18 months while the estate was in probate - -charger on and no one maintaining them. I replaced them with a single starter battery, two 12-volt house batteries in parallel, and two win/thrust batteries in series.

That should be enough to get us where we're going and on the hard to start work.

*EDIT: After I posted, I realized I'd left off the ground wire between the starter and boat ground. It's there, and I added it to the diagram...

There can be no good reason for connecting the 24v bank to the ProIso which, to
my understanding, is a 12v device as is your alternator. That is the most likely
source of the smoke you noticed. Remove that connection and use a dedicated 24v
charger. Check anything related to the errant 24v to 12v. The ProIso is likely cooked.

 

[brianC]

Yes, that's a possibility. The thruster tunnel was full of all manner of things.

However, she was pulling water and running fine when we bought her. The only things we did were clean the sea strainer, change the impeller, heat exchanger, and transmission cooler, and then have a diver clean the bottom.

But - all things considered, I agree with you that we should take the hose off and see.

One other thing - the strainer is above the waterline, while the pump is just below. I am sure this has to make some kind of difference.

We changed our departure date to 31 July to give us three full days of work to get the water flowing, and new alarms wired. I also ordered new belts from American Diesel, so I will go ahead and change those out just to be sure.

Maybe it’s just airlocked?
Otherwise it might be a snapped impeller shaft as suggested.

 

[DBG8492]

Maybe it’s just airlocked?
Otherwise it might be a snapped impeller shaft as suggested.

Well, the first thing I did when she didn't pull water after 15 seconds of running was pull the cover off the impeller and check.

It was intact. There was even still lube on it and the inside face of the housing.

I then had my fiancé bump the starter a few times, and the impeller turned without issue.

I think I just need to make sure there's water from the heat exchanger to the seacock once I ensure the seacock intake hose is indeed clear.

 

[DBG8492]

There can be no good reason for connecting the 24v bank to the ProIso which, to
my understanding, is a 12v device as is your alternator. That is the most likely
source of the smoke you noticed. Remove that connection and use a dedicated 24v
charger. Check anything related to the errant 24v to 12v. The ProIso is likely cooked.

Hm...

This makes me wonder why he had it wired this way.

The thruster and windlass are both 24 volt devices, and the batteries were wired in series and connected to the ProIsoCharge when we got there. As far as I'm aware, no one has touched the boat since he died, so everything is/was exactly the way he left it.

Also, switching on the ignition allows the device to sense voltage on all banks, and there are red-light indicators for over-voltage on both the alternator and battery side. Neither lit up either with the ignition on or the engine running.

In addition, the Freedom 25 is NOT connected to the 24v bank. The only charging connection it has is to the ProIsoCharge.

I will need to investigate this for sure.