New battery technology ?

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In my mind, the sulfation thing is a bigger concern with AGMs than FLA, as they seem to suffer worse from sulfation and can't be equalized, so there's less ability to recover from it. Gel batteries seem better about the sulfation issue, but they're more sensitive to charge voltage and have less choices of form factor, etc.

I don't care for AGM or GEL for this exact reason, your options for maintenance are simply to get it right on charging (lithiums are also in this category). FLA is more durable and resilient, but of course more work to keep them topped up, but you have the option to equalize and over-charge them without much worry.
 
I don't care for AGM or GEL for this exact reason, your options for maintenance are simply to get it right on charging (lithiums are also in this category). FLA is more durable and resilient, but of course more work to keep them topped up, but you have the option to equalize and over-charge them without much worry.

FLA also has the downside of more off-gassing, leaks, spills, etc. So depending on mounting arrangements, it's not always practical. That's what drove me to AGMs. Now if someone made an L16 gel or I felt like spending up for 3 of the big Fireflys, then I'd be all set. Gels are more fussy about voltage than AGMs, but provided you don't overcharge them, good gels are quite durable. AGMs are more like FLAs that hate being undercharged, but can deliver more current. Other than needing frequent charging and no equalization, they're not particularly sensitive.
 
You do not need a huge charge system for LFP to charge much faster than AGM or FLA, at least above 70% SOC. Any LA battery will taper its charge acceptance and that is the primary contributor to the long charge cycle. LFP taper as well but only in the final few minutes, representing almost none of the capacity. There are good use cases for each chemistry, saying one it better than the other without also specifying the application is incomplete or incorrect.

LFP continue to drop in price, good quality batteries are now $5-7/AH. LA batteries on the other hand are rising in price, >$2/AH for quality AGM. The life cycle cost (for those keeping them long enough to see it) already favors LFP regardless of other features.
 
You do not need a huge charge system for LFP to charge much faster than AGM or FLA, at least above 70% SOC. Any LA battery will taper its charge acceptance and that is the primary contributor to the long charge cycle. LFP taper as well but only in the final few minutes, representing almost none of the capacity. There are good use cases for each chemistry, saying one it better than the other without also specifying the application is incomplete or incorrect.

LFP continue to drop in price, good quality batteries are now $5-7/AH. LA batteries on the other hand are rising in price, >$2/AH for quality AGM. The life cycle cost (for those keeping them long enough to see it) already favors LFP regardless of other features.
Is that true for any charger already in place or only if investing in a charger designed to make this advantage possible!
I don't know just curious?
 
I guess a lot of this depends on a battery cycle means. Everything I have read says a battery cycle is when you fully discharge a battery and bring it back to full charge. If that is the case is discharging a battery to 50% SOC and fully charging it 1/2 a cycle?
 
You do not need a huge charge system for LFP to charge much faster than AGM or FLA, at least above 70% SOC. Any LA battery will taper its charge acceptance and that is the primary contributor to the long charge cycle. LFP taper as well but only in the final few minutes, representing almost none of the capacity. There are good use cases for each chemistry, saying one it better than the other without also specifying the application is incomplete or incorrect.

LFP continue to drop in price, good quality batteries are now $5-7/AH. LA batteries on the other hand are rising in price, >$2/AH for quality AGM. The life cycle cost (for those keeping them long enough to see it) already favors LFP regardless of other features.

Actually it's 14.36 volts which represents about 80% on a FLA bank.
It does not actually taper.

What happens is that the charger produces it's maximum current until the voltage reached 14.36 volts.

At that point the charger holds that voltage and the battery bank naturally starts taking less current as a result.

That is (again) why folks with FLA batteries typically turn off their generator at about 80%.

If you compare how folks that are aware of how charging works actually use their FLA batteries, to the LiFeP04 folks you will find that the charge acceptance currents are rarely limited by battery technology. They are limited by the charger capability.

This spring I bought a new FLA house bank. I paid $294 per battery or $1196 for my new 840 amp hour bank.

My last bank of the exact same size and my real life cruising style lasted a full decade so my cost per year was $120

I was quoted by battleborn for a 400 amp hour bank as a replacement. The cost at that time was right at $4,000

I am turning 60 in a couple of weeks. I will need to have my batteries replaced once more during my boating life.

Financially it was a easy decision.

The LiFeP04 solution would not save me any generator run time since I cannot overcharge my FLA batteries with my 240 amps of charging capacity.

They would cost me more money over my expected lifetime.
 
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This resembles throwing a handful of wheat into a chicken coop.
How long did the 8Ds last? Did they do a good job? If they served well maybe replace like with like. The simplest upgrade is probably AGM. Plenty of 8D size batts AGM or SLA with more than the nominal 200Ah capacity available, as much as 270Ah,giving a capacity increase. Replacing each 8D with 2 batts likely increases capacity would make for easier handing but more cabling. Recent threads suggest SLAs can explode, ? due to loss of acid over time.
 
.....70%-80% DOD is a more realistic cut off...QUOTE]

Sweet Lord I hope that would be true. I would not hesitate to buy FLA again. But what is it based on? If you know, please. Would appreciate something on the order of scholarly research. Personal experience is anecdotal.
 
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I guess a lot of this depends on a battery cycle means. Everything I have read says a battery cycle is when you fully discharge a battery and bring it back to full charge. If that is the case is discharging a battery to 50% SOC and fully charging it 1/2 a cycle?
Thats not what the charts show...
DOD vs # cycles
For FLA & AGM if you double DOD cycles gets halved (roughly). That way AH over batty life is relatively constant which makes sense as use basically use it up... either in many short cycles or less larger use cycles.
A cycle IMO is discharge to a given DOD and then recharge to full charge.
 
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Is that true for any charger already in place or only if investing in a charger designed to make this advantage possible!
I don't know just curious?

Actually it's 14.36 volts which represents about 80% on a FLA bank.
It does not actually taper.

What happens is that the charger produces it's maximum current until the voltage reached 14.36 volts.

At that point the charger holds that voltage and the battery bank naturally starts taking less current as a result.

That is (again) why folks with FLA batteries typically turn off their generator at about 80%.
...

The LiFeP04 solution would not save me any generator run time since I cannot overcharge my FLA batteries with my 240 amps of charging capacity.

They would cost me more money over my expected lifetime.

LA batteries have a charge voltage limit specified by the manufacturer. You cannot simply run the voltage up higher to maintain the charge acceptance rate without damaging them, and their acceptance rate tapers even at high voltages. All of this is well covered on Rod Collins site and many other places.

FLA batteries operated between say 30 and 80% of SOC are pretty efficient - the acceptance rate is high and you can equalize them periodically to drive the sulphate back into solution to recover the lost capacity. Prior to AGM and LFP that is what people did to minimize charge time.

AGM have a higher initial charge acceptance, but require full recharge more often to maintain capacity and you cannot equalize them to desulphate, as they will dry out. (FLAs dry out too but you just pour some water back in). To get to 100% SOC on AGMs (or FLA) requires about a 4 hour charge tail AFTER you have gotten to 80%.

LFP will continue to take the full charge right up to about 98% SOC. That difference may recharge LFP faster, even if you have a limited charge source. For example, if I have a 50 amp source, and I am down to 50% on my 200AH AGM (-100 AH) it will take 50 A for an hour (back to 75%), then slope down averaging 25 A for the next hour (back to 87%), then taper to near zero over the next 4 hours (back to 100%). 6 hours to full. The LFP would accept 100A if I had it, but I don't, so it gets 50A. It accepts that for 2 hours and I am back at 100%. If I had a 100A source, the AGM might accept that for a few minutes, but reaching full will still take maybe 5.5 hours. On the LFP, 1 hour. So yes, the LFP benefits from the higher charge capacity more, but it charges faster even from the limited source.

FLAs operated between 30 and 80% would also take the 50A for most of the charge time but would not accept 100A so similar to LFP if charge is limited but does not benefit from a larger charge source.

The weak point of AGMs is the need to fully recharge them frequently or you will kill them. You have to balance that against their benefits: typically lower internal resistance, don't outgas acid and corrode everything, don't require watering, much lower self-discharge rate, do not spill when tipped over, and longer cycle life if properly cared for. If you and your charging system are going to mistreat them, you are better off with FLA, as they tolerate abuse better and are cheaper to start with. For most boats that are used weekends and plugged in during the week, AGMs are ideal (with a good charger). Living on the hook and trying to minimize charge time, AGM only makes sense if you have some persistent low amp charge source like solar to finish the charge tail. Otherwise run FLAs from 30 to 80% and equalize when you can. But LFP are ideal for that use, charge quicker, last many more cycles, and don't care about full charges.

My own use case on my trawler favors AGM: I move nearly every day with a 4 - 6 hour engine run. The AGMs get fully charged nearly every day. The only benefit of LFP would be lighter weight and longer cycle life. But the use case on my sailboat favors LFP: engine is rarely run, when it is it drives a 7 KW alternator (equivalent to 560A at 12V) and I want to charge quickly and infrequently.
 
Batteries first and foremost need to be sized for there intended use, house or starting engine, thruster, windlass etc., etc. and how deep are your pockets. I took out my two 8D batteries, I hate them...160 lbs. ea. Replacing with six 6vdc GC batteries.
 
I am in a similar situation. Currently, 3 x 8D AGM fullrivers, each @260AH. So 780ah total. Only 4 years old. I have been researching LFP batts and talking to several LFP manufacturers to evaluate this option. I submitted a complete survey of my boat current demands, DC motors, draws, etc in an effort for them to recommend the best setup. I was thinking that a 450AH LFP bank would work nicely. The LFP tech responses gave me pause, please see below.

As background, I am not unhappy with the AGMs on balance. Despite the fact the AGMs can provide lots of amps continuously, when engaging the windlass (being careful with continuous use), I notice a voltage drop and my cameras start flickering & the windlass motor start groaning a bit. The windlass draws @160a max according to their tech support.

I have 48V wesmar bow & stern thrusters. Wesmar installed a voltage booster to boost 12V to 48V. The BT draws 480a from the 12V batteries and I noticed a drop in voltage when in use which worries me some but I know the voltage booster has a large range of voltage input.

Besides, weight, fast charging advantages, LFP batts do maintain a constant voltage for the most part. Now, the 2 areas that the LFP folks highlighted are 1) the 480a (for 3-5s) demand is too much for standard BMS and a special high demand BMS would be required and 2) the BMS could disconnect the batteries without warning, if it does not like a certain situation. So that was a bit scary.


Here is a response from one of the LFP manufacturers. “It looks like a complex set of requirements...bow thrusters and windlasses can be punishing on the BMS. I would recommend at least 550 amp hours and the GTX series battery attached. We do have a high current BMS now available per attached.”

In summary, I would need a special external high current BMS (not inexpensive), 550ah LFP bank, a new Dc to Dc for alternator charging, a new display panel and possibly a new charger (my current magnum 2800 may be fine?). And careful monitoring of the LFPs when not onboard (we usually leave the boat for 4.5months plugged in at the marina with at least one visit). So potentially additional cost for someone to check on the batts more frequently and such.

I still would like to upgrade to LFPs for the stable voltage and faster charging. But with the new additional costs, I am more on the fence and likely will just replace with a higher AH AGMs bank. I am not even sure if a new AGM bank would solve the low voltage issue.

As a side note, on average how many A/hr does a boat consume overnight? My boat pulls in 15-18amps/hr overnight and 18amps/hr during the day, with various breakers off to conserve power and all lights are LED. Currently, I run the genset 3-4hrs per day with charger set at a max of 125amps/hr.

Streff
 
A bigger battery bank will definitely have less voltage sag during periods of high power draw. Voltage will always dip with lead acid, but the smaller the load is relative to the size of the bank, the smaller the dip (assuming equal battery chemistry / design).
 
Most folks would recommend dedicated batteries for the thrusters located close to the thrusters. Charge them through an ACR. Then, no worries about voltage sag.
I am in a similar situation. Currently, 3 x 8D AGM fullrivers, each @260AH. So 780ah total. Only 4 years old. I have been researching LFP batts and talking to several LFP manufacturers to evaluate this option. I submitted a complete survey of my boat current demands, DC motors, draws, etc in an effort for them to recommend the best setup. I was thinking that a 450AH LFP bank would work nicely. The LFP tech responses gave me pause, please see below.

As background, I am not unhappy with the AGMs on balance. Despite the fact the AGMs can provide lots of amps continuously, when engaging the windlass (being careful with continuous use), I notice a voltage drop and my cameras start flickering & the windlass motor start groaning a bit. The windlass draws @160a max according to their tech support.

I have 48V wesmar bow & stern thrusters. Wesmar installed a voltage booster to boost 12V to 48V. The BT draws 480a from the 12V batteries and I noticed a drop in voltage when in use which worries me some but I know the voltage booster has a large range of voltage input.

Besides, weight, fast charging advantages, LFP batts do maintain a constant voltage for the most part. Now, the 2 areas that the LFP folks highlighted are 1) the 480a (for 3-5s) demand is too much for standard BMS and a special high demand BMS would be required and 2) the BMS could disconnect the batteries without warning, if it does not like a certain situation. So that was a bit scary.


Here is a response from one of the LFP manufacturers. “It looks like a complex set of requirements...bow thrusters and windlasses can be punishing on the BMS. I would recommend at least 550 amp hours and the GTX series battery attached. We do have a high current BMS now available per attached.”

In summary, I would need a special external high current BMS (not inexpensive), 550ah LFP bank, a new Dc to Dc for alternator charging, a new display panel and possibly a new charger (my current magnum 2800 may be fine?). And careful monitoring of the LFPs when not onboard (we usually leave the boat for 4.5months plugged in at the marina with at least one visit). So potentially additional cost for someone to check on the batts more frequently and such.

I still would like to upgrade to LFPs for the stable voltage and faster charging. But with the new additional costs, I am more on the fence and likely will just replace with a higher AH AGMs bank. I am not even sure if a new AGM bank would solve the low voltage issue.

As a side note, on average how many A/hr does a boat consume overnight? My boat pulls in 15-18amps/hr overnight and 18amps/hr during the day, with various breakers off to conserve power and all lights are LED. Currently, I run the genset 3-4hrs per day with charger set at a max of 125amps/hr.

Streff
 
Lot of choices ya'll. Happy hunting.
 
If I were doing ocean cruising by SAIL, the expense of Lithium would make sense. Since I am in a powerboat, it just does not make sense. The charging system keeps traditional batteries charged whenever we are underway... even if we are anchoring a lot at night.

If your son was to go Lithium, I'm pretty sure that represents a change to the charging system(s) as well.

I like all the comments you've received... just figured I'd add my 2 cents, as it is slightly a different angle than everyone else.

Popular Youtube channels: SV Delos and Sailing Sophisticated Lady, and others, are examples of ocean cruisers (sail) who recently upgraded their whole systems to Lithium. It makes sense for them, as they are sailing more than powering, and mooring more than slips with shore power.

Of course, I bet they both got smoking deals from Battleborn for the publicity (if not "FREE"). How do we mere mortals compete with that!
 
Hi... Yes, Always stick with Flooded Cell Batteries, 8D, GC-2's, etc & stay away from Gels & other Specialized Batteries, as The Charging Characteristics of these Batteries are Different from Flooded Batteries. Unless you plan to change to a very expensive charger, that meets these Requirements.. Chargers that have a "Switch", which allows them to charge Flooded, Gels, or AGM's are Trash & do not get the most from these Expensive Batteries.


The only thing I recommend is , that if your Battery switches allow all your Batteries (more than 2- 8D's) Together & this is the way you normally run, be SURE to add a appropriate fuse in the plus Lead of each Battery, as this Configuration will Exceed the Fault Current Rating of Normal Recreational Electrical Marine Components.



In case of a Bolted Fault, & Subsequent Explosion, your Insurance Company has Grounds for NOT Paying the Claim on your craft, & surrounding Damage.......Be Warned.... Ken Ongemach BSEE, Tampa, FL
 
The big hassle for cruisers is most of the batt graphs assume 100% recharge after use, which only a few can do.

Low cost LA batts seem to survive when cycled between 50% and about 85%-90% for years.

Folks seem to be able to live with the near end life lower capacity .
 
The big hassle for cruisers is most of the batt graphs assume 100% recharge after use, which only a few can do.

Low cost LA batts seem to survive when cycled between 50% and about 85%-90% for years.

Folks seem to be able to live with the near end life lower capacity .

That's the big attraction to some of the new tech. They're more tolerant of not being fully charged all the time. And lithium doesn't need full charges at all. But it comes at a price.
 
Please read Mainesail’s website. He’s a professional and his analysis is based on much experience and knowledge. You can kill flooded or AGMs in one year if not properly set up and used. We had 1020 in the house bank. Never brought it below 80% with just a rare 70%. Had solar and wind so could get around poor rate of acceptance to truly get to 100% nearly daily. Still at 7 years load testing showed 20-30% loss.
Unless you’re only in protected waters flooded are risky. For a boat having batteries that can be inverted without acid release and aren’t off gassing excessively and are vibration tolerant is important.
Next go round would put carbon firefly or Li with micro bms in my boat if full time cruiser. If fair weather would go with AGMs of quality such as lifelines and equalize periodically.
 
Next go round would put carbon firefly or Li with micro bms in my boat if full time cruiser. If fair weather would go with AGMs of quality such as lifelines and equalize periodically.


I've had that mental debate with replacing my AGMs. I'm not ready to go for Li yet, but Firefly would be a good option. Only question is their real lifespan vs AGM, as for me, I'd be looking at $1100 - 1200 for a good pair of L16 AGMs vs just over $2200 for a set of the big Fireflys. Which means they'd have to last at least twice as long to make sense price-wise.
 
Few? Anyone with twin engines and 100 amp externally-regulated alternators can recharge their batteries to 100%, or nearly so, in about five hours of cruising. More than a few are set up this way.
The big hassle for cruisers is most of the batt graphs assume 100% recharge after use, which only a few can do.

Low cost LA batts seem to survive when cycled between 50% and about 85%-90% for years.

Folks seem to be able to live with the near end life lower capacity .
 
Few? Anyone with twin engines and 100 amp externally-regulated alternators can recharge their batteries to 100%, or nearly so, in about five hours of cruising. More than a few are set up this way.


Plenty of boats can get the batteries topped off with a decent day of motoring. But unless you've got solar, etc. or are running a generator a lot of hours, or traveling long day after long day, you won't get them topped off every single cycle. And that's what FF was getting at. If you don't get them perfectly topped off every single time you draw them down, you're not working under the same conditions the life cycle graphs are based on.
 
Yes, quite true, and that's why I said nearly so. And nearly so is good enough in my view as the length of service will not be appreciably affected. Plus, once a week to absolutely 100% is good enough. That was my point. Pursuing perfection is rarely a useful journey. Perfection is the enemy of good. So my batteries with my use profile last six years rather than seven. Is this really a significant cost? I suppose to some but not to me. I say this with all due respect to others' opinions. As far as getting them to 100% while cruising without solar or long generator run times, doesn't that depend on the number of hours cruised? Here is a question. How long does it take to replace 450 amp hours (900 amp hour bank) to 100% assuming 160 amps of charging ability?
Plenty of boats can get the batteries topped off with a decent day of motoring. But unless you've got solar, etc. or are running a generator a lot of hours, or traveling long day after long day, you won't get them topped off every single cycle. And that's what FF was getting at. If you don't get them perfectly topped off every single time you draw them down, you're not working under the same conditions the life cycle graphs are based on.
 
As far as getting them to 100% while cruising without solar or long generator run times, doesn't that depend on the number of hours cruised? Here is a question. How long does it take to replace 450 amp hours (900 amp hour bank) to 100% assuming 160 amps of charging ability?


It absolutely does make a difference. Generally, I figure the worst-case scenario to plan for is the one where you spend a few days away from shore power without moving the boat, or only moving a short distance here and there.



For the how long to charge question, depending on flooded or AGM and the specific batteries in question, I'd figure with a 160 amp charge source, you'll be in bulk for anywhere from 45 - 90 minutes before acceptance starts dropping and you're in absorption. From that point, it'll be another 4 - 6 hours before everything is truly topped off.
 
Please read Mainesail’s website. He’s a professional and his analysis is based on much experience and knowledge. You can kill flooded or AGMs in one year if not properly set up and used. We had 1020 in the house bank. Never brought it below 80% with just a rare 70%. Had solar and wind so could get around poor rate of acceptance to truly get to 100% nearly daily. Still at 7 years load testing showed 20-30% loss.
Unless you’re only in protected waters flooded are risky. For a boat having batteries that can be inverted without acid release and aren’t off gassing excessively and are vibration tolerant is important.
Next go round would put carbon firefly or Li with micro bms in my boat if full time cruiser. If fair weather would go with AGMs of quality such as lifelines and equalize periodically.

I would say my use falls into a similar pattern with FLAs, maybe less DOD. The possible differences is that most cruising days it's fully recharged and almost never goes 3 days without a complete recharge.

Regarding off gassing, that's really an installation issue. It's a pretty simple matter to add engine room ventilation when the engine or generator are running that also removes battery gasses during heavy charging.

While excessive vibration possibly could be an issue, FLA has a very good reputation in it's over 100 year history. Failures to excessive vibration are a rare anomaly and would be inconsistent with most forum members' applications. That probably goes hand in hand with inversion risk. Far less than 1% of the boats on this forum will survive an inversion, so the batteries won't be your problem.

While new battery technology is interesting, proper installation design, correct sizing, and an adherence to maintenance and recharging make FLA and probably AGM batteries a good choice for most people on this forum.

Ted
 
I agree with Ted, DDW, and others here. For most boaters on this forum (and according to what I have read from many sources including Rod Collins from Marinehowto.com), flooded lead acid batteries are the best (for most boating applications), especially on a "best bang" for the buck perspective. AGM's are useful and worth the extra cost if access to add the water to FLA is a problem. However, as stated by many others, if not properly, regularly, completely recharged, AGM may die an early death from "misuse". Most boat batteries die from misuse.

If your boat is running "stock" internally, not temperature compensated alternator(s), you will not get your deep cycle house bank back to 100% very often (if at all) by engine running alone. Even with a properly set up and designed high output externally regulated alternator (with temp compensation), (as stated by others) for most battery types it will take 6 hours (or so) of running to fully recharge your batteries, and for AGM's it is important to get them back to 100% every few days (better if every day).
While lithium and Firefly are potentially great batteries there are many downsides for most boaters. With lithium, you will probably need to "revamp" your entire charging system as well as the extra cost of the batteries, and the jury is still out on the actual "expected" added life for Firefly to see if they can match FLA for cost effectiveness. Firefly is a good battery for PSOC (not fully regularly recharging) operation, and for some who can afford them, that may be "worth it" to them.

However, for most, FLA is the most "cost effective" choice. As usual, pros and cons. :)
 
So, in others words, about 7 hours max. Well, some cruisers do run for as many as seven hours or more. In five hours,, are the batteries approaching, say 98%‽ I don't know or care. And, I did not at all say it does not make a difference. In fact, I acknowledged that it does. But, in my opinion, that difference is insignificant to overall battery life as long as the batteries are brought back to true 100% every 4 to 6 days. So what that the batteries drop dead one year earlier, if that. At the end of the day, batteries are able to deliver a finite number of amp hours whether or not deeply discharged. Battery life is determined by the number of amps pulled from the batteries, not the number of cycles at any particular depth of discharge. Batteries last longer at 20% DOD simply because fewer amps have been withdrawn. If one needs 400 amp-hours overnight, one needs a larger bank to limit discharge to 20%. More batteries or bigger batteries, more expense in either case. Size the bank to 50% DOD, fewer batteries, less cost, less space, less wiring. In the end the cost differential is nothing.
It absolutely does make a difference. Generally, I figure the worst-case scenario to plan for is the one where you spend a few days away from shore power without moving the boat, or only moving a short distance here and there.



For the how long to charge question, depending on flooded or AGM and the specific batteries in question, I'd figure with a 160 amp charge source, you'll be in bulk for anywhere from 45 - 90 minutes before acceptance starts dropping and you're in absorption. From that point, it'll be another 4 - 6 hours before everything is truly topped off.
 
So, in others words, about 7 hours max. Well, some cruisers do run for as many as seven hours or more.


Exactly. I've run longer than that as well. But not every trip away from shore power involves those long runs. When I've gone somewhere, stayed for 2 days with no shore power, traveled 2 or 3 hours and then stayed 2 more nights there, then run 4 hours, stay another night, etc. the batteries start to take a good bit of abuse.

But my solution wasn't to spend more money on fancier batteries, it was to add solar. Cost of solar and new AGMs (needed new batteries anyway) comes out about the same as a set of Fireflys and significantly less than lithium. And I decided the solar would be more useful to me in general than more PSOC-tolerant batteries, so that's the route I took. Once it's all installed, the batteries should get topped off at least most days away from shore power, which means longer battery life, offsetting some of the cost of the solar install over time.
 
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