No Maintenance Logs

[Daniel B]

In the process of finding and buying a trawler and looked yesterday at a 1985 KK42 with a Ford-Lehman engine with over 4,000 hours. There are no maintenance records or logs at all. This is concerning, particularly with respect to the engine and drive system but for other systems as well.

The broker said an oil analysis will reveal everything we need to know about the condition of the engine. I'm skeptical.

Is this a fatal flaw? What could a mechanic do to assess the engine, other than an oil analysis, that could give us some comfort the engine is sound?

Should we be prepared to overhaul or replace then engine -- hope for the best and plan for the worst -- and make our offer reflect that contingency?

I think the boat is worthy of further consideration otherwise.

Grateful for any thoughts or experience that can be shared.

 

[CaptTom]

Brokers love to discard things like maintenance records. I imagine it's just one more place for buyers to find something to complain about. Or the previous owner might not have given them to the broker.

Having good records is great, but if you like the boat and the oil analysis comes back good, that's more important.

 

[rslifkin]

Not knowing the history just means I would plan on a more detailed engine survey to assess the current condition. Generally, if everything looks good, checks out healthy, there are signs of wear items being kept up with, etc. then it has likely been maintained well enough.

 

[BroadCove]

I think the "why" could matter. If there are no records because it's being sold by an estate, that's understandable. If there is an active/recent owner and no records, that would be different.

Regardless, you could see the lack of records as a "feature": you're not going to be swayed by records of questionable provenance. Even if invoices were provided, unless you know the quality of the service provider's work, the records may not be that useful. Yes, I'd want to have them myself, but not having them doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the mechanical state of the engine.

A reputable mechanical surveyor will do a lot more than simply pull oil for an analysis. I don't have experience with this engine / service intervals, but I would factor the cost of a "major service" into my purchase decision / offer.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. D. Welcome aboard. While maintenance logs ARE somewhat important, as Mr. r. notes (his post #3), general appearances can give you some idea of any maintenance regime IMO. Are the bilge areas clean and odor free? Is the engine clean? Have there been any attempts at a "rattle-can rebuild" evidenced by over spray and corrosion in less accessible parts of the engine? Is the wiring, in general, neat and tidy? Are there any spares (filters, clamps, hoses, fluids etc.)? Are the batteries and clean and well secured?

SOME people will spend $$ to keep the living areas pretty while neglecting the mechanical bits and pieces. MY benchmark is a clean tidy ER space IS a sign that some effort has been made to keep things ship-shape.

Oil analysis us pretty well useless IF there has been a recent oil change.

Care to share the listing or at least a picture of the ER spaces?

 

[Mac2]

A visual inspection of the engine should give you a good idea of maintenance. Is the engine clean, hoses in good condition, belt dust etc. Are there after market alarms on the engine? My previous boat, 1985 Krogen Manatee, only had the basic engine alarms. If someone takes care of an engine, they would typically want alarms added to protect the engine. Is there a fuel polisher and/or oil polisher? Another indicator someone takes care of their engine.
One other thing to look for on the 42 Krogen-the upper deck in the center of the boat where the pilot house meets the upper deck. Remove the headliner in the saloon to check this area for fiberglass damage-something that was told to me by a Krogen broker. Maybe another Krogen owner can chime in here on their experience.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have never bought a boat that came with maintenance logs. I have never been asked by a buyer to see my maintenance logs.

When I sell my current boat I will probably make the maintenance logs available to show how many systems have been upgraded and to show that one need not fear the higher engine hour meter. In other words I will use the maintenance logs to justify a higher price for the boat.

Now if I was buying an ocean crossing vessel I probably would want maintenance logs. So, are you buying a KK42 for coastal cruising or Ocean crossing?

 

[Daniel B]

Greetings,
Mr. D. Welcome aboard. While maintenance logs ARE somewhat important, as Mr. r. notes (his post #3), general appearances can give you some idea of any maintenance regime IMO. Are the bilge areas clean and odor free? Is the engine clean? Have there been any attempts at a "rattle-can rebuild" evidenced by over spray and corrosion in less accessible parts of the engine? Is the wiring, in general, neat and tidy? Are there any spares (filters, clamps, hoses, fluids etc.)? Are the batteries and clean and well secured?

SOME people will spend $$ to keep the living areas pretty while neglecting the mechanical bits and pieces. MY benchmark is a clean tidy ER space IS a sign that some effort has been made to keep things ship-shape.

Oil analysis us pretty well useless IF there has been a recent oil change.

Care to share the listing or at least a picture of the ER spaces?

Thanks RT. Here is a photo of the ER:

Pretty clean and tidy. Interesting though, the living areas look good but the other storage lockers on the boat and the lazarette are not very ship shape. So, something of a mixed bag.

 

[Dutchman]

In the process of finding and buying a trawler and looked yesterday at a 1985 KK42 with a Ford-Lehman engine with over 4,000 hours. There are no maintenance records or logs at all. This is concerning, particularly with respect to the engine and drive system but for other systems as well.

The broker said an oil analysis will reveal everything we need to know about the condition of the engine. I'm skeptical.

Is this a fatal flaw? What could a mechanic do to assess the engine, other than an oil analysis, that could give us some comfort the engine is sound?

Should we be prepared to overhaul or replace then engine -- hope for the best and plan for the worst -- and make our offer reflect that contingency?

I think the boat is worthy of further consideration otherwise.

Grateful for any thoughts or experience that can be shared.

Hello Daniel.
I got into the Trawler business about four years ago. Bought a 1980 CHB 35, with a 120 Lehman. It had about 5000 hours on it when we got it and I put almost 1000 hours on it Cruising, Pacific Northwest and British Columbia. I’ve really grown to love that motor. This motor has quite a history in the boating business, and a reputation of reliability. My engine oil, cooler and transmission cooler or causing the water temperature to run hot. I use Barnacle Buster to clean them out and it’s running smooth ever sense. When I first got it, it used some oil about a half a quart a day with eight hour cruising, but that has gone away with more frequent use of the engine. 1 quart now between oil changes. Incredible fuel mileage I have run it at about 1.8 to 2 gallons an hour, which gives me about 6 to 7 mph. I too did not have too much history on the motor but it has proven itself over time. A year ago we were in British Columbia, over five hours from any town, and the freshwater/coolant water pump bearing failed. The pulley and shaft, with time, actually fell out of the housing, spilling the coolant into the bilge. Not all the coolant came out of the engine, but it was not circulating for sure. I cut back to a very low power setting and cruised for five hours to Port McNeil, British Columbia, and yet the engine temperature stayed right at 180°.Thanks to star link, I was able to get a replacement pump out of Delta BC shipped to Port McNeil in less than a day for 60 bucks took me less than an hour and a half to install the part. I was pretty amazed that the engine did not overheat. I have heard that they can go on easy 10,000 hours. I haven’t talk to anyone that has done that but may be someone on the forum has some experience with that.

Good luck. Dutchman.

 

[Daniel B]

Brokers love to discard things like maintenance records. I imagine it's just one more place for buyers to find something to complain about. Or the previous owner might not have given them to the broker.

Having good records is great, but if you like the boat and the oil analysis comes back good, that's more important.

Thanks Capt. Tom. I appreciate your perspective.

 

[Daniel B]

Hello Daniel.
I got into the Trawler business about four years ago. Bought a 1980 CHB 35, with a 120 Lehman. It had about 5000 hours on it when we got it and I put almost 1000 hours on it Cruising, Pacific Northwest and British Columbia. I’ve really grown to love that motor. This motor has quite a history in the boating business, and a reputation of reliability. My engine oil, cooler and transmission cooler or causing the water temperature to run hot. I use Barnacle Buster to clean them out and it’s running smooth ever sense. When I first got it, it used some oil about a half a quart a day with eight hour cruising, but that has gone away with more frequent use of the engine. 1 quart now between oil changes. Incredible fuel mileage I have run it at about 1.8 to 2 gallons an hour, which gives me about 6 to 7 mph. I too did not have too much history on the motor but it has proven itself over time. A year ago we were in British Columbia, over five hours from any town, and the freshwater/coolant water pump bearing failed. The pulley and shaft, with time, actually fell out of the housing, spilling the coolant into the bilge. Not all the coolant came out of the engine, but it was not circulating for sure. I cut back to a very low power setting and cruised for five hours to Port McNeil, British Columbia, and yet the engine temperature stayed right at 180°.Thanks to star link, I was able to get a replacement pump out of Delta BC shipped to Port McNeil in less than a day for 60 bucks took me less than an hour and a half to install the part. I was pretty amazed that the engine did not overheat. I have heard that they can go on easy 10,000 hours. I haven’t talk to anyone that has done that but may be someone on the forum has some experience with that.

Good luck. Dutchman.

Thanks Dutchman. That's quite a story losing the water pump. Glad you made it to Pt McNeil. Especially with a single engine and thinking about cruising to AK, I've been thinking about the spare parts I would carry on board, a water pump being one of them. Curious what other spare parts folks would suggest.

 

[Daniel B]

I have never bought a boat that came with maintenance logs. I have never been asked by a buyer to see my maintenance logs.

When I sell my current boat I will probably make the maintenance logs available to show how many systems have been upgraded and to show that one need not fear the higher engine hour meter. In other words I will use the maintenance logs to justify a higher price for the boat.

Now if I was buying an ocean crossing vessel I probably would want maintenance logs. So, are you buying a KK42 for coastal cruising or Ocean crossing?

Thanks for your response. The boat does have a fuel polishing system. We're just thinking about coastal cruising -- but as far as Alaska and Mexico, so reliability and confidence is the engine is important to us.

 

[Daniel B]

A visual inspection of the engine should give you a good idea of maintenance. Is the engine clean, hoses in good condition, belt dust etc. Are there after market alarms on the engine? My previous boat, 1985 Krogen Manatee, only had the basic engine alarms. If someone takes care of an engine, they would typically want alarms added to protect the engine. Is there a fuel polisher and/or oil polisher? Another indicator someone takes care of their engine.
One other thing to look for on the 42 Krogen-the upper deck in the center of the boat where the pilot house meets the upper deck. Remove the headliner in the saloon to check this area for fiberglass damage-something that was told to me by a Krogen broker. Maybe another Krogen owner can chime in here on their experience.

Thanks for the tip about possible problems where the pilot house meets the deck. We will check into that.

 

[Daniel B]

Not knowing the history just means I would plan on a more detailed engine survey to assess the current condition. Generally, if everything looks good, checks out healthy, there are signs of wear items being kept up with, etc. then it has likely been maintained well enough.

An engine survey sounds like a good idea to me. Thanks.

 

[av8r]

The oil filter appears to be the large Wix filter, a plus because it costs a little more. The oil change date appears to be written on the top of the filter, also a plus.
The transmission cooler appears to have been replaced, a plus, but not very well secured, a minus.
If the raw water pump has a date on the cover for the impeller change, that would be a plus.
Beyond that, you really don’t know. That being said, these are pretty sturdy engines and 4000 hrs is not excessive, and not too bad to get everything up to date.

 

[jleonard]

Are there after market alarms on the engine? My previous boat, 1985 Krogen Manatee, only had the basic engine alarms. If someone takes care of an engine, they would typically want alarms added to protect the engine. Is there a fuel polisher and/or oil polisher? Another indicator someone takes care of their engine.

I am going to respectfully disagree with this.
I will argue that adding all those extra alarm and systems is an indication of POOR maintenance.
Why need those extras if the engine is well maintained? Not necessary. I never overheated my Lehman using only the standard gages. I changed impellers every other season, hence they were always fresh, and always checked water flow at startup and during long runs.
Same with fuel polishing. I kept up on the filters, used a multi-stage system, and never had a issue with the Lehman.
Oil polisher? Changed oil at end of season and did oil samples on occasion, especially at the end of the season before I sold the boat. They all came back great.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[rslifkin]

I am going to respectfully disagree with this.
I will argue that adding all those extra alarm and systems is an indication of POOR maintenance.
Why need those extras if the engine is well maintained? Not necessary. I never overheated my Lehman using only the standard gages. I changed impellers every other season, hence they were always fresh, and always checked water flow at startup and during long runs.
Same with fuel polishing. I kept up on the filters, used a multi-stage system, and never had a issue with the Lehman.
Oil polisher? Changed oil at end of season and did oil samples on occasion, especially at the end of the season before I sold the boat. They all came back great.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I can't agree. Gauges are good, but alarms for conditions that can go from fine to "big problem" quickly are important. No matter how likely an overheat is with good maintenance, there's never a guarantee you won't suck up a plastic bag or jellyfish and lose water flow at a high workload moment. An alarm is very likely to warn you of the issue before you'd notice the temp gauge climbing in a high workload situation. And with something like a loss of cooling water, the sooner you know about it the more chance you have of avoiding damage.

Now, poorly thought out alarm systems and extra monitoring that has to be babysat to keep everything happy is no good. But a well thought out system just moves more in the direction of being able to assume it's working fine and only needing to pay attention in detail to how it's running when something isn't right. Of course, none of that reduces the need for good maintenance.

 

[Mac2]

I am going to respectfully disagree with this.
I will argue that adding all those extra alarm and systems is an indication of POOR maintenance.
Why need those extras if the engine is well maintained? Not necessary. I never overheated my Lehman using only the standard gages. I changed impellers every other season, hence they were always fresh, and always checked water flow at startup and during long runs.
Same with fuel polishing. I kept up on the filters, used a multi-stage system, and never had a issue with the Lehman.
Oil polisher? Changed oil at end of season and did oil samples on occasion, especially at the end of the season before I sold the boat. They all came back great.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

I have experienced my raw water intake blocked and an oil hose fitting shear, spilling all my engine oil into the bilge. Not sure how maintenance reflects in these situations.
I would also point out the lift muffler that has been repaired and the alarm mounted on the exhaust hose. I would bet large sums of money the raw water got cut-off resulting in the melting of exhaust hoses and lift muffler-something the OP should inquire about.

 

[Comodave]

We have owned 24 boats now. Our current boat had the original owners manual but no maintenance logs. The no maintenance logs is situation normal, most owners don’t keep much in the way of logs. Having the original owners manual is unusual, most boats don’t have that so I counted myself lucky. Do a good hull and engine survey. Check out the boat yourself and spend a long time ( 8 hours or so) doing it before the survey and make notes of what you see. Then ask the surveyor to check out your notes and give his/her opinion on those as well as the normal survey. 4K hours on a Lehman isn’t bad if the engine has been taken care of. How do you know if it has been taken care of, ask the engine surveyor and then do an oil analysis.

 

[O C Diver]

Considering the cruising you plan to do, a thorough engine inspection by a qualified Lehman mechanic is called for. For me, that would include (with the mechanic onboard) seatrialing the the boat and putting it on the pin ( maximum rated engine RPM) for 10 minutes.

Many here will argue with running an engine of that vintage at WOT, but going down the outside of the Baja peninsula isn't for an engine covered in bandaids. IMO, put it on the pin and have the owner fix the deficiencies. Does it turn rated RPM? Does it overheat? Does it knock?

I would treat the generator the same way. Load it to 90% and run it that way for the entire seatrial.

Ted

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. D. Hmmm. I guess your idea of clean and tidy differs from mine. I'd give that ER about 5/10. Pretty sloppy IMO. Filthy bilge and messy wiring. NOT major alarm bells but most definitely a concern.

 

[O C Diver]

I would want to know what happened inside the lift muffler and was it repaired correctly. It looks to have been cut open where the blue paint isn't.

Ted

 

[firehoser75]

jleonard wrote:
"I will argue that adding all those extra alarm and systems is an indication of POOR maintenance."
While I guess that is "possible", I would disagree with this statement. The stock engine overheat alarm does not (in most cases) give adequate warning to prevent potential (big) damage. Most boaters underway, have enough "other things" to monitor to keep the needed attention on engine temperature (gauge) to ENSURE that an overheat never occurs. Adding a raw water flow alarm as well as an exhaust hose overheat alarm are signs of a prudent, knowledgeable owner, not one who would forego necessary maintenance (IMHO). A water flow alarm will alert an operator to such things as a closed or blocked through hull, failure of the impeller or water pump, or any other sudden or finally inadequate flow of cooling water, as soon as it occurs! The first place that any developing engine overheat will normally show, is at the exhaust hose, thereby giving a very early warning that something is amiss with the engine cooling (when using an exhaust overheat alarm), potentially avoiding a possibly very expensive engine overheat. These "early warnings" really have nothing to do with maintenance, but could save a boater from a bad situation and a potentially large repair bill (no matter the maintenance in the instance of a failure).

Daniel (OP), it is too bad that there are no maintenance records. I would ask the owner how he/she knew when maintenance was needed, when it was last done , and when it should next be scheduled without records??? However, like others have stated, in my experience, most sellers don't seem to have logs??
Be aware that oil testing (if there was a recent oil change) is almost useless. Personally I kept detailed records for all systems on the boat, and they were given to the new owner for his use.
Without any maintenance records, you have to assume that everything is due, to give you a new starting point, especially if planning to travel "off the beaten track" such as to Alaska through BC, and I would hope to reflect that in the final agreed upon price.
One more comment, I think that relying on Barnacle Buster to "service" an engine's cooling system is totally inadequate. While BB can (partially) reduce or remove the buildup of "gunk" (calcium, salt, etc.), it is a far cry from a proper "off engine" servicing of the various components that includes the replacement of "O" rings, seals, etc. a proper cleaning of all the passages, and most importantly PRESSURE TESTING. After all, not only do we want a proper flow to ensure proper cooling, but we want the various fluids ONLY WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE. This is not possible by using BB alone.

Good luck on your boat search, and do a thorough inspection, survey(s), and sea trial to try your best to ascertain the boat's condition. It is the only option available. I agree with OC Diver about running the engine at WOT and ensuring the engine will make rated specs. This will not hurt a properly maintained engine, and will tell you and the mechanic a lot.

 

[Mainship Pilot]

On a side note, I do probably 80% of my own work on my boat and track everything on Yachtwave on my phone, it's an easy Ap to add records, reciepts, Pix, descriptions, ect with dates, and any comments you want to add,that is helpful not only for your own reference, but also for a potential future owner. So far it's been free for me.

 

[ranger58sb]

The broker said an oil analysis will reveal everything we need to know about the condition of the engine. I'm skeptical.

Is this a fatal flaw? What could a mechanic do to assess the engine, other than an oil analysis, that could give us some comfort the engine is sound?

Should we be prepared to overhaul or replace then engine -- hope for the best and plan for the worst -- and make our offer reflect that contingency?

Oil analysis can be good - unless the seller changed it yesterday -- but it can't perform magic. Unless it's maybe on snake oil.

When we were last shopping, the prospective seller couldn't provide engine maintenance records for review, a condition of our offer. We pulled the offer. Then I got an estimate to bring the engines back into recommended service conformation from a MAN dealer near the boat. Eventually, since the boat still sat on the market for a while (oddly, during Covid), we made a second offer, reduced by the estimated fix-it amount. Got the boat. Further reduced from that, to adjust for additional engine findings during mechanical survey and sea trial.

Depending on what engines you're looking at, though, a comprehensive service update may have fewer digits in the cost. A prospective four digit rehab isn't chump change, but it might not necessarily be enough to make you walk.

-Chris