No Service History

[chilliwackteryx4]

First, thanks for everyone who contributes to this forum. I just joined and the depth of information shared here is super helpful. My question is: Would you look seriously at a boat and put it under contract if the broker has no history or records?
We are looking for a Nordic 32 and have found one that we really like, but the selling broker has no recent survey, no engine maintenance records (Cummins 270hp) and apparently the previous owner is AWOL.
I’d plan on a general and mechanical survey either way, but is that enough?

 

[O C Diver]

First, thanks for everyone who contributes to this forum. I just joined and the depth of information shared here is super helpful. My question is: Would you look seriously at a boat and put it under contract if the broker has no history or records?
We are looking for a Nordic 32 and have found one that we really like, but the selling broker has no recent survey, no engine maintenance records (Cummins 270hp) and apparently the previous owner is AWOL.
I’d plan on a general and mechanical survey either way, but is that enough?

Yes.

Lots of threads on the forum about previous owners misrepresenting things. I would assume that anything bad you will have to discover for yourself or with people you hire. I never met the previous owner of my boat, and many prefer to stay out of the selling process.

Ted

 

[Blissboat]

You are right to be wary when there are no records and no one available to explain the boat's history. In my opinion, that raises the buyer's risk and ought to be reflected in the price. That's common sense, because you as the buyer will be "navigating in reduced visibility," so to speak, and must depend even more than usual on paid professionals to assess the boat and its systems.

When buying a used boat, after a certain number of years of use (or disuse) you are no longer just buying the boat - you are buying its story, or more specifically, the previous owner's story. If that story is absent, or for any other reason makes you doubtful, that doubt needs to be priced-in to the sale.

To me, being able to talk with the seller and evaluate her/his credibility is an important part of the go / no-go decision.

 

[mvweebles]

Yes.

Lots of threads on the forum about previous owners misrepresenting things. I would assume that anything bad you will have to discover for yourself or with people you hire. I never met the previous owner of my boat, and many prefer to stay out of the selling process.

Ted

I fall into OC Diver's camp - assume nothing, believe nothing, develop your own information. If you get good information along the way, great. A bonus, but not a requirement. Why would you trust strangers who's interest to sell are not aligned with your interest to buy?

There was a thread a couple months ago asking who keeps records. While some kept immaculate records, many knowledgeable TF contributors admitted to lax record keeping (myself included).

Its fairly difficult to completely hide defects. A major defect may not have blaring neon lights associated with it, and they often get passed over by a buyer, but major defects are usually surfaced during a rigorous inspection process.

Good luck. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Proceed with sensible caution and you'll likely be fine.

Peter

 

[slowgoesit]

First, Welcome to the Forum! Lots of good info here.
To address your post, and this is my opinion only, unless the previous owner had passed, I would most definitely want to speak to him/her. Lots of information to pass along that the broker doesn't know, or care to find out for you. Yes, brokers often DO NOT WANT sellers and potential buyers to communicate, for fear that interaction may cost him his commission. Tough toenails.

I'm not saying not being able to speak to the previous owners would definitely put the boat out of the running, but I would look hard and long as to why the broker does not want the seller to speak to me. I suppose in some cases the seller does not want to be bothered, but that in itself seems to tell me that the seller was never really invested in the boat, and probably did not pay the care and attention to the boat that it needed. Much of that will come out in the walk-thru/survey, but not everything.
On service records, it is uncommon that you get complete, thorough service records when you purchase a boat. We were lucky with the boat we currently own that the Sellers were more than happy to spend literally hours talking on the phone with us, even before we saw the boat or put in the offer. That, and the condition of the boat sold us on her. I have to say also that the broker (with the Seller's permission) gave us the Sellers contact info early on. Our boat is somewhat of a Unicorn though, and the Seller's really were the best people to represent/sell the boat.
Just our personal experience, and once again, Welcome to the Forum, and Best of Luck in your search!

Edit: Blissboat had a really good comment above, which I forget to mention. Lack of maintenance records and inability to speak to the sellers would definitely be figured into our offer, because, as mentioned, we, the potential buyer's would be assuming more risk with this lack of information.
If the broker or seller don't think that is reasonable, then just talk to us. If the broker doesn't WANT the seller to talk to us, there may be a very good reason. One boat we were interested in, the broker swore up and down that all 4 fuel tanks were perfectly functional, speaking from his "personal knowledge", and "20 year friendship with the Seller". We later spoke personally to the Seller's, wonderful people, who openly disclosed that the two aft fuel tanks had been taken out of service many years before because they leaked, and that they broker was aware of the problem, and the info sheet the Sellers provided to the broker clearly stated that the aft tanks leaked. Would that in and of itself have prevented us from purchasing the boat? No, but that and other really shady stuff the broker pulled did. We may have been perfectly with that boat, but because of the untruthfulness of the broker, we walked. We're very comfortable with that decision.

 

[tiltrider1]

Sellers are liars. You probably won’t get much useful info from the seller. TF’s usually have good records and this is a plus, not a given. I have never bought a boat that came with any maintenance records. On the other hand I always assumed the worst and used the survey to convince me other wise. It doesn’t take long to figure out if a boat is professionally maintained or not. What do the spares package look like. The more spares the more in touch with maintenance the seller was. What do the filters look like. The newer they look the more likely good maintenance. Look at hoses and hose clamps, bad hoses and rusty clamps screams no maintenance.

 

[psneeld]

There are trustworthy sellers, maybe few and far between and they are worth their weight in gold.

Sure a bristol boat with a stellar full service yard file is great.

Unfortunately I and many others cant afford boats with a blue ribbon pedigree.

Sometines a low rung on the ladder boat from the right seller is the buy of the day.

 

[Comodave]

It wouldn’t be a deal killer for me. Spend a day digging through the whole boat. Tap out the decks and stringers. Try the systems out as much as possible. Get a good surveyor and mechanic to check out the engines. Then assume that there will be problems that crop up later and be happy with your new boat.

 

[chilliwackteryx4]

Thanks for the quick response everyone…kinda confirms what I was thinking - proceed with caution. I’m fairly mechanically inclined and think I’ll take a look before I commit to a survey. If I see any red flags all I’ve lost is a bit of my time.

 

[Ken E.]

I also would be skeptical of what the seller says about the boat. He wants to sell it, meaning he might not be forthright. The lack of a maintenance log or records wouldn't deal killer for me. How does the engine room look and the boat generally. As per above, the amount of spares are a good indicator. Get an oil analysis. Sea trial it, looking for smoke, vibrations. noises. Take it up full throttle and leave it there, 10 minutes at least. Will it come up to rated rpm? How's the temperature? Be skeptical.

 

[ranger58sb]

We are looking for a Nordic 32 and have found one that we really like, but the selling broker has no recent survey, no engine maintenance records (Cummins 270hp) and apparently the previous owner is AWOL.
I’d plan on a general and mechanical survey either way, but is that enough?

FWIW...

We made our first contract offer subject to maintenance records review (along with all the other usual "subject to" clauses)... and when no engine service records appeared, we walked.

Then went back a couple months later with a new contract offer reduced by the estimated cost to bring the engines back into currency with the engine manufacturer's recommended service regime. The seller questioned that amount, but capitulated when we discussed the very detail estimate from the certified engine dealer... specifically pointing out all the work the seller hadn't done.

The final figure was reduced even further after the marine and mechanical surveys.

And I'm still working to fix all the stuff the marine surveyor missed...

-Chris

 

[firehoser75]

"Chilli",
I think your outlook here is sound. However, I for one, cannot understand when there is a complete lack of maintenance records! How does the current owner (seller) know when maintenance is required when they don't know when it was last performed??
I kept detailed service records if for no other reason so that I could "keep up" with a good maintenance schedule to avoid (hopefully) any unexpected trouble when on my travels. The fact that the next owner can benefit from them is a bonus in my mind (they also can make your boat more desirable in competitive market).
I would be a bit leary about both no records and no contact with the seller, but that would mean being even more cautious. Comodave gave some good suggestions, and sounds like you are going to do that.
Good luck and I hope it works out for the best for you!

 

[psneeld]

Some people are detail and record oriented, some have their own methods.

True the old adage about written proof is true, usually good but could be fabricated too.

There are some other ways to guess about how well a boat has been maintained.... one thing is miles driven and current state of operation.

Plus, even the best maintenance in the world doesn't prevent serious failures the minute after you buy it...new or used.

 

[alormaria]

If the previous owner did all his own maintenance he doesn't need to write it down. Perhaps he'll throw the receipts for the parts/fluids into a folder. They will be greasy.



You really need to go by your survey and analysis.

 

[slowgoesit]

Sellers are liars. You probably won’t get much useful info from the seller.

Tiltrider: Interesting comment, and one that I think is totally incorrect as an over generalization.

The sellers we purchased our boat from were totally honest and forthcoming. In 19 months of ownership, absolutely NOTHING they told us prior or post sale has turned out to be untruthful.

Getting back to your post, every boat owner at some point will be a "Seller", and since you stated that "Sellers are liars" . . . .

hmmmm, Aren't YOU a boat owner, and therefore a seller, and . . . . . ?!?

Just sayin'!

 

[tiltrider1]

Tiltrider: Interesting comment, and one that I think is totally incorrect as an over generalization.

The sellers we purchased our boat from were totally honest and forthcoming. In 19 months of ownership, absolutely NOTHING they told us prior or post sale has turned out to be untruthful.

Getting back to your post, every boat owner at some point will be a "Seller", and since you stated that "Sellers are liars" . . . .

hmmmm, Aren't YOU a boat owner, and therefore a seller, and . . . . . ?!?

Just sayin'!

It was a generalization. It is more often true than false not because the sellers are habitual liars but more often they think their boat is perfect when it’s far from. Often what isn’t perfect is not important to them so in their mind it’s irrelevant and everything is perfect.

 

[psneeld]

Guess buyers have to have some appreciation of human nature.

Depending on what and how much is cimmunicated and how much is brag versus pointing out potential issues may point in a certain direction.

My sales pitches were about 4 hrs long, numbed the average mind and were 2/3 negative issues and 1/3 what was good.

All potential buyera were impressed with my honesty.

For the same reasons, I helped a lot of boaters for free versus charging them for fixing things. Just not my nature and I think there are more out there like me. Lots of jerks, just realize that it only takes a few questions to figure them out...usually. That is assuming you know something about the class boat you are looking at which sadly is very few boater these days.

 

[hmason]

I am anal about maintenance and fix things that go awry ASAP. On the other hand I am a crappy record keeper. I mark hours on my filters and keep repair receipts but that’s about it. I “remember” when to change zincs etc. if you ever buy a boat of mine it will be in great shape.

 

[High Wire]

It's nice to see the records but how well did the PO's keep them. What is the condition now verses 20 or more years ago? Good survey and be there during it to see for yourself.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Me too. I changed oils (engines and trannies), 10 gallons, 4 racors, 4 fuel, 4 oil, 2 trannie filters and both impellers. I bought a log book to record these events but I haven't written anything in it yet.

If you don't know when it was last done...

The good news is the boat had oil (engine and trans), a spare racor and an impeller on board when I bought it.

 

[chilliwackteryx4]

So it appears we may be able to get service records from the shop that has done the services since 2015… it’s sounding better, will keep you all posted, thanks again

 

[BruceK]

So it appears we may be able to get service records from the shop that has done the services since 2015… it’s sounding better, will keep you all posted, thanks again

If the shop has records of work done the Seller likely received and paid bills he should be able to provide. But you understand the seller is AWOL. So who is the broker getting his instructions from? Does he have proper instructions? Who is the Seller? Who signs the Sale documents? Where will he send the sale proceeds? Are you buying from the lender? Have you searched ownership? I`d want that intriguing riddle resolved as much as the absence of records.

 

[catalinajack]

I am anal about maintenance and fix things that go awry ASAP. On the other hand I am a crappy record keeper. I mark hours on my filters and keep repair receipts but that’s about it. I “remember” when to change zincs etc. if you ever buy a boat of mine it will be in great shape.

You know that but your buyer would have to rely on your word. That's the whole point of this discussion. I have owned my boat for eight years and have kept detailed records of all work done. I found paper recordations on board going back to original build but with some gaps. I created a spreadsheet which documents past owners' written recordations and my work. It's not a complete history but it's pretty damn good, especially for the last eight years.

 

[tiltrider1]

I am anal about maintenance and fix things that go awry ASAP. On the other hand I am a crappy record keeper. I mark hours on my filters and keep repair receipts but that’s about it. I “remember” when to change zincs etc. if you ever buy a boat of mine it will be in great shape.

Seeing dates & hours written on filters shows that timely maintenance was important to some one. Professionals often do this to help keep track of maintenance intervals.

 

[proudsailor]

Read my post here. https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/survey-enough-64522.html. Lots of good info shared with me on my post from some of the gurus on this site. Info I should have acquired before signing a contract.

Similar circumstance on an older KK42. I go to survey on Tuesday. Surveyor I hired came highly recommended by several, and has already spoken with me several times over several hours and we've not even done the survey yet! Much more confident about it than I was.

I also pushed broker and owner. Wasn't willing to negotiate further until I had a better understanding of what was done and when. Was able to get some receipts, install dates, inventory of parts, and learned better of the very limited maintenance. Not perfect, not completely what I wanted, but not a blank slate either. Made me much more confident to go to survey with competent marine and engine surveyors. They now have the info I gleaned which helps them help me.

 

[Rigtyme]

First, thanks for everyone who contributes to this forum. I just joined and the depth of information shared here is super helpful. My question is: Would you look seriously at a boat and put it under contract if the broker has no history or records?
We are looking for a Nordic 32 and have found one that we really like, but the selling broker has no recent survey, no engine maintenance records (Cummins 270hp) and apparently the previous owner is AWOL.
I’d plan on a general and mechanical survey either way, but is that enough?

Dido Comodave. Have the engine/mechanical survey include the sea trial. Best of luck with your new boat.