Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

[Steve DAntonio]

Hippo, you've selected a list that almost runs the gamut, while Nordhavn and KKY are of a similar style, and from builders with long-established track records, and owners with whom you could speak, the DD and one off steel/AL are far different animals. Not undesirable, just different. DDs from Seahorse are interesting and proven (I've been to the yard, it, and the proprietor Bill Kimley, are equally as interesting) I would say the first order of business is to get aboard each one of these vessels to see how they feel (more challenging for one offs since they are, well one offs and all different).

One offs are, once again, and for obvious reasons, vastly different than vessels from builders who have built hundreds of boats. Steel and aluminum, which are often the material of choice for one offs, present another range of questions and potential issues, I often tell those considering these vessels, 'I have nothing against them steel and AL, however, to be a responsible owner you need to thoroughly educate yourself on the subject of corrosion, rather than listen to others, most of whom have no idea what they are talking about where this subject is concerned'. One offs also present a resale challenge. Having said all this, I've helped build custom, one off vessels, so they should not be excluded from the list, but they do have special considerations that must be taken into account.

This pre-offer checklist may be helpful in narrowing down your search
https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a-boat-buyers-top-ten-guide-to-a-pre-offer-evaluation-part-i/

 

[Codger2]

Let me begin by saying "I have no intimate knowledge of the KKY and only several boardings of the Fleming 55 & N50, so my comments are on the boats profile only." When I look at a Nordhvn (the N50 excluded) I see a top heavy vessel that, for the life of me, I can't see it out in seas 4 feet +! On the other hand, when I look at a Kady I see a fat hull with too much beam and definitely in need of stabilization. Now for the Fleming. A beautiful designed boat to my eye, with no walk in engine room! (Something I'm willing to overlook as I want to be proud of my boat & spend time sitting on the dock box admiring her lines.) Although the Nordy & the KKY have excellent ERs, I just can't stomach their profiles!
The comments are mine, yours may be totally different. When I step out on the town, I want a good looking woman on my arm...the same applies to my attraction to boats.

May Sandpiper's new owners love her as much as I did!

 

[mvweebles]

Been looking at N40, N43, N46 and N47. Looks like the 46 may actually be the better looper but some how like the 40. Yes she looks a bit top heavy but think with the weight down low A/B may not be as critical. I do my own maintenance and like access better on the 40.
Can you offer advice?

I have zero experience with the N43 as they were just about to ship when I stopped delivering in 2004. But I have run several of the other three north from Dana Point to Oregon/PNW, over 1000 nms, mostly non-stop.

I would take the N40 over the N46 because engine room access is really good on N40, and it had many design advances due to PAE's Around-the-World sprint with it. She's a well balanced and mannerly boat and takes a seaway surprisingly well. Main disadvantage is lack of a Stidd PH Chair. She's good for a couple with occasional guests. I did not find her top-heavy at all, though none had flybridges.

One of the N47s I delivered did not have a flybridge, the other half-dozen had one. In my opinion, the weight and windage affected the boat considerably. PAE builds thick, heavy boats (recall, the CP35 struggled with weight and could not plane). Adding a flybridge is a challenge.

I am disappointed I never delivered a N43. They looked like the perfect small boat compromise. Again, I would get it without a flybridge. Expensive little boat, but to my eye, a helluva design. Resale is good so maybe the overall TCO is okay even with the high initial cost.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Steve thanks so much for the link. Having bought and sold 8 boats over 30+ years your comments are spot on. As a buyer it’s important to know what you don’t know but also important to have enough knowledge to know if the surveyor is up to snuff. I once bought a Pacific Seacraft. She was built in California then shipped to Florida. Original owner never launched her. She was then shipped to Massachusetts. That owner day sailed her very infrequently. Then she went to inside storage for several years. When I saw her her stove was never used and engine had less than 40 hours. Broker kept telling me how wonderful it was to get a 10 year old boat that was never used. I watched my surveyor. I wasn’t happy with his engine examination. He gave it a clean bill. I hired a mechanic to give me an independent opinion. He told me the engine would need a virtual rebuild to be up to snuff. Seller argued about it. But told me I’d walk away without a price drop to reflect the problem.
Later told by broker (after the sale) he got a wrench to look at it. However, I got my price drop. Had the engine work done and sold her after two years for same as my total cost. Steve you provide a great service educating us to know we need someone like you regardless of our background or years out there cruising.

 

[Hippocampus]

I heard that called the dinghy factor. Your boat should make your heart skip a beat as you approach or pull away on your dinghy and shoot a glance on her.
Because many of my patients when I was in practice were commercial fishermen I like the look of trollers and trawlers. I like the Portuguese bridge, lack of overhangs to improve lwl and soft diagonals on the Ns. Prefer the look of the stern on the KKs.
Form stability gives a different ride than righting arm from ballast. That’s why some get seasick on multihulls and others on monos. Some more sensitive to fast frequency oscillations others slow. I’m ok with either but hate pounding and end up black and blue on the outside of hips, thighs and arms when on fast frequency oscillating boats if in a seaway. Rather go full displacement. Wife feels the same. Says she finds it easier to do activities of daily living on boats without excessive beam or multihulls. She also likes a fine entry but good reserve buoyancy as hobbyhorsing is uncomfortable.

 

[IRENE]

Been looking at N40, N43, N46 and N47. Looks like the 46 may actually be the better looper but some how like the 40. Yes she looks a bit top heavy but think with the weight down low A/B may not be as critical. I do my own maintenance and like access better on the 40.

Can you offer advice? SURE

What’s it like docking these things?

The N40 handles well around the dock. The biggest adjustment for me was (is) the weight and momentum. EASY does it. In the marina, she does not blow around in the wind much, and has good tracking due to the stabilizer fins. The pivot point is near the center, so the bow thruster pushes the stern in the opposite direction. Attention in the marina is imperative. She is 55k pounds and you need to mentally be ahead of the boat with good situational awareness. I have had a few near misses and a couple of ridiculous embarrassments.

Do you just secure a stern line and go forward against it until you’re sorted out?

Yes, the stern line is secured in a short (temporary) fashion, and then you walk forward on the dock and secure the bow. Singlehanded is the same, or you can just tie short to the midship cleat then go take care of the rest.

In anything over 20 thrusters are just about useless on a sailboat. Same for trawlers?

We have an 8hp electric bow thruster that is quite handy. That said, there is no emergency without it - the boat will back and fill nicely in a 50’ spot. She backs down very well too...the bow thruster pivots the entire boat very well. I am comfortable with the boat in the marina with 20, but then we have to start asking ourselves why...this is pleasure boating and if it’s 20 in the marina, how much is it blowing outside?

Regarding mobility - you are doing a bunch of stairs on the N40. Steps from the salon/aft deck level to the pilothouse, then steps through relatively skinny watertight doors to the weather deck, then steps through the Portuguese bridge to the bow. More steps to the boat deck and more to the flybridge (if equipped). Steps inside, down to the head and staterooms. I feel the boat is sized for someone not larger than 6’ and 200 pounds. I am less in both dimensions and I can move around comfortably. Good mobility is required to move around the engine room and lazarette. I just went into my chain locker to remove my windlass, so more of the same. When my back and knees decide it is time, I will prefer a sedan layout such as a Mainship 40 (love this boat) or perhaps a Back Cove.

 

[ddw36]

Another plug for the DD462: This is the blog of a Swedish doctor, who bought a used DD 462 in 2015, circumnavigated it w/ family along the way, and continues his blog. Here it is: South Pacific Familyadventure 2008. Joys and frustrations are included, but he's still happy w/ his Duck. Interesting that even years after the purchase, the PO still works w/ the doctor. An engaging blog, beginning to now.

 

[PNK]

Probably hard to go wrong with any of those 3, but if you are looking in that price range you should also consider Outer Reef. I was on one in Puerto Rico several years ago - can't remember if it was a 61 or a 65 - that the owners had cruised up from Puerto Montt in Chile, so there is no question of the ability to cross oceans, but the features and space were really impressive. I personally think that Flemings have the ideal "look", but they are way outside my budget. Of course looks are not one of the critical factors if you are considering long-distance cruising, but just like with cars many of us are heavily influenced by them, although we can always come up with "practical" reasons for the decisions we make.
Sounds like you are being very thoughtful and careful with this decision, but how much fun are you going to have, right?

 

[Yachtman]

Anybody know what happened to the OP?

Last post on TF was at the beginning of April.

This thread has been dormant since May.

Was also wondering the same thing. The April timing doesn’t bode well in these C-19 days.

 

[Hippocampus]

Did some FaceTime time tours. Looked at a Willard 40. It a very cute little boat and seems well made and designed. Wife thought it even smaller than the N40. We’ve been living on a 46’ sailboat for years and have cruised on a PCS so lived on that for a few weeks at a time. She has a good sense of her and my ergonomics and afterwards said let’s keep looking.

 

[IRENE]

What is a PCS, please?

 

[ddw36]

https://mvmobyduck.com/nordhavn-vs-diesel-duck/

 

[bligh]

I'm curious why Defever is not on your list. They have several different models that fit your needs and compare well to the brands you are interested in. There are not many late model Defevers on the market at the moment but Im sure they will pop up here and there. I had my eye on a well maintained one in Puget Sound but I ultimately chose to go a different route.

Did some FaceTime time tours. Looked at a Willard 40. It a very cute little boat and seems well made and designed. Wife thought it even smaller than the N40. We’ve been living on a 46’ sailboat for years and have cruised on a PCS so lived on that for a few weeks at a time. She has a good sense of her and my ergonomics and afterwards said let’s keep looking.

 

[Hippocampus]

Pacific Seacraft. They made the N40 for awhile but mostly known for their sailboats.

Did a little bit of research on the Defevers. Would think given engine size mpg would be low c/w other vessels. What I need to do given my level of ignorance about trawlers is physically get on as many as possible. Been a boat owner for 30+ years so have made just about every mistake you can. Wet decks, bad tanks, stress fatigued frames, etc. Fortunately discovered before purchase so reflected in price and occurring early on in the progression of 2’itis so no economic hit. Think initial build quality and maintenance is more important than age. I don’t have the knowledge about trawlers and hope you folks can teach me.
I like fiberglass tanks. I like stick built where you can take things out without major decontructive surgery. I don’t like liners where you can’t see what’s going on. I like mechanical as well as adhesive fastenings. I like strong leak free hatches and lights. I like good ventilation I like ABYC compliance especially in wiring. I’m in the strong skin rather than many frame crowd and like solid grp from 6” down from waterline. I know balsa is stiffer than many synthetic cores but only if wetted out correctly so due to risk of wet decks prefer synthetic cores. I look for appropriate backing plates and epoxy or G10 on anything going through the deck or house. I don’t like marelon through hulls, wont buy a boat with ball valves and only want to see good certified bronze. From the little I’ve seen just like with any type of vessel there’s a significant difference in build quality among trawlers. For me I’d only get a sense of this crawling around. Do to Covid this is hard to do. If you folks could help shorten the list I’d greatly appreciate it. Thanks

 

[mvweebles]

Did some FaceTime time tours. Looked at a Willard 40. It a very cute little boat and seems well made and designed. Wife thought it even smaller than the N40. We’ve been living on a 46’ sailboat for years and have cruised on a PCS so lived on that for a few weeks at a time. She has a good sense of her and my ergonomics and afterwards said let’s keep looking.

Willard had a design strategy based on building trawlers since 1961 deeply influenced by Wm Garden design sensibilities. Examples: the W40 has side decks, the N40 has a full-width saloon. The W40 carries almost 20% of her weight in keel-ballast; the N40 carries less than 9%. The W40 has it's athwart fuel tank centered in the boat so it buffers engine noise and trim remains unaffected as fuel is used. The N40 has traditional saddle tanks, albeit better placed than the N46. If you read Jim Leishman carefully and the development of their first powerboat the N46, marketing drove the design.

I was moderator of Willard Boat Owners and talk to a LOT of owners and chatted with Willard Marine regularly (I am still moderator). I tried to convince the good people at Willard to build their newly re-designed trawler as a full-width saloon, perhaps stretch a foot or two to differentiate the model from previous W40s. They were quite resolute in their decision and paid the price - they went out of business around 2002 or so.

I was a presented at Trawler Fests when both boats were being sold. Potential buyers clearly liked the N40's interior accommodations. Guys loved the engine room access in the N40 which I agree is impressive.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

On the fuel efficiency thing, for a given size and weight of boat, if you take 2 boats of similar hull design with different size engines, they should still burn a similar amount of fuel (provided they're diesels). Unless the engines are really oversized, diesels keep good enough efficiency at light load to make the efficiency penalty from bigger engines a minimal factor (modern designs even more so). 2 stroke detroits might be the exception to that.

 

[bligh]

have made just about every mistake you can. Wet decks, bad tanks, stress fatigued frames, etc.

You are not alone!

If you folks could help shorten the list I’d greatly appreciate it. Thanks

I think your list about right. In today's market where supply is limited, your list seems about right. Many of the builders you list have so much in common with each other it will behoove you not commit to one builder.

 

[bowball]

Correct! That's what I've been doing for the last 4 years and am now up to date, electronically, anchoring, lighting, etc. Far less costly way to achieve a great boat with all the updated "wants."

Codger2-

What are those chairs you have in the salon?

 

[bowball]

Has anyone compared a Nordhavn coastal 59 to a Fleming 58?

 

[Jeff4688]

Has anyone compared a Nordhavn coastal 59 to a Fleming 58?

Been on both. For me, Fleming.
1) Flemng 58 is a a world cruiser, the N59 is a costal cruiser
2) Interior pilothouse on the Fleming 58 is a nice place to work, the N59’s interior station is just that - a seat in the saloon to drive from
3) The lines of the Fleming are more classic (of course) and the air draft is likely lower than the N59.

I don’t own either, just been on them, so just my opinion

 

[Lostsailor13]

Take a peek at diesel duck,I would pick one of those over all 3 of your choices

 

[guy with a boat]

Been on both. For me, Fleming.
1) Flemng 58 is a a world cruiser, the N59 is a costal cruiser
2) Interior pilothouse on the Fleming 58 is a nice place to work, the N59’s interior station is just that - a seat in the saloon to drive from
3) The lines of the Fleming are more classic (of course) and the air draft is likely lower than the N59.

I don’t own either, just been on them, so just my opinion

Both are coastal cruisers. The N59CP (Coastal Pilot) is one of the only in the N lineup that is designed for coastal cruising, although they still build it to CE-category A offshore rating. The Fleming is a beautiful boat, and also a coastal cruiser. Most boaters can go everywhere they want in all reasonable conditions in a good coastal cruiser, so no great compromise. However, neither of these boats is the right answer if ocean-crossing is in the plan.

The OP in this thread stopped posting long ago, but its still a good conversation.

 

[KnotYet]

Take a peek at diesel duck,I would pick one of those over all 3 of your choices

While I also might pick a Diesel Duck, they may not appeal to someone looking at
the thread's title trio. DD's might seem a bit cramped in comparison to the others.

 

[Jeff4688]

Both are coastal cruisers. The N59CP (Coastal Pilot) is one of the only in the N lineup that is designed for coastal cruising, although they still build it to CE-category A offshore rating. The Fleming is a beautiful boat, and also a coastal cruiser. Most boaters can go everywhere they want in all reasonable conditions in a good coastal cruiser, so no great compromise. However, neither of these boats is the right answer if ocean-crossing is in the plan.

The OP in this thread stopped posting long ago, but its still a good conversation.

… Just going on what the guys at Burr told me when I was shopping and seeing the many 55’s in their trust… we are looking to get “comfy” with the Bahamas first (so current boat will do) … Fleming may be on the horizon and a 55 won’t get us to the BVIs as well as a 58 (yes that whole trip could be considered coastal). Fleming 58 is CE - ocean A… at least that’s what I’m told…. Range (tankage) seems to be the limiting factor

 

[bowball]

… Just going on what the guys at Burr told me when I was shopping and seeing the many 55’s in their trust… we are looking to get “comfy” with the Bahamas first (so current boat will do) … Fleming may be on the horizon and a 55 won’t get us to the BVIs as well as a 58 (yes that whole trip could be considered coastal). Fleming 58 is CE - ocean A… at least that’s what I’m told…. Range (tankage) seems to be the limiting factor

I’ve been on all the different Flemings… 55 still has 1,000 gallons of diesel. The extra beam as you go from the 55 to the 58 to the 65 is impressive and meaningful though!

 

[OldDan1943]

Add the American Tug to your list for consideration then go looking for a 'good' used boat. If you want ANY new boat, be prepared to wait 2-3 years.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

The ISO Ocean A rating sounds impressive, but few understand exactly what it means. It does not mean the vessel is capable of crossing oceans, the MJM 40 is Ocean A rated. It's a venerable design that I happen to like, with solid construction quality but it has roll up side curtains https://mjmyachts.com/40z/

Among other things, the Ocean A rating includes being able to endure Beaufort Force 8 (a gale) and seas up to 23 feet, but tellingly it excludes a wave period (although Force 8 indicates wave crests are beginning to break), i.e. no indication of how steep those waves may be.

I'm often surprised when I encounter some vessels that meet ISO Ocean A standards. I've been in Force 8 conditions aboard vessels (including Flemings and Nordhavns) that were more than capable of enduring them, and would not have wanted to be on many vessels that meet Ocean A standards in those same conditions.

Discussing these two brans alone, while Flemings have crossed oceans, they really aren't designed for it, and Fleming won't hide this. They are very capable blue water cruisers, I've taken them as far north as Iceland, and cruised the Aleutians. At any given moment, a Nordhavn is probably crossing an ocean somewhere, not a boast any other production recreational yacht builder can make, so if that's what you think you want to do, and few actually do, then these vessels are designed for it. I've cruised a Nordhavn within 600 miles of the North Pole...a 60 went to South Georgia (the sub-Antarctic) and a 76 to the Antarctic Peninsula, places few cruisers ever even intend to, much less actually, visit.

 

[rslifkin]

Steve makes a very good point. Class A only says that it's capable of surviving the specified conditions when new. It says nothing about whether it's realistically usable in those conditions, how miserable the crew will be, whether it has the range to go where that capability is useful, or how good the boat's long term durability is.

 

[bowball]

Many people buy SUV’s with high ground clearance, thinking they may someday go off road, or like to think of themselves and project the image of being extremely adventurous. Yet in fact, they would be better served by an AWD wagon with its better handling and comfort,

I can see the appeal of both.

 

[sunchaser]

Aside from bragging rights that " blue water" ratings bring to a vessel, as Steve notes few do it. According to Nordhavn, about 1 in 5 of their vessels cross oceans. But Nordhavns are marvelous coastal cruisers which satisfy a bevy of experienced cruisers. Plus you can lug around a few tons of "cheap" fuel that will last for a season or more.

I've been an Outer Reef fan for many years. If one is serious about a Fleming, Outer Reef bears a look. With large fuel capacity, good engine selections and Ocean Rated they can go anywhere a Fleming can go with equal degrees of comfort and safety. The Taiwan yard where they're built is well regarded.

Once past the name bravado, a big attraction of Outer Reef Vs Fleming is availability and price. An OR 60-65 on the 5 year market can be found for half a million or more below the cost of a F58. Yes, I've been on both.