Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

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fgarriso said:
Well it looks like everyone else on the form has chimed in, so here is my two cents worth.

Given your requirements I would recommend a "NEW" Nordhavn N68 aft-pilot house. N6834 is still available and is at the factory. About 90% completed so you would be looking at 6 months for delivery. You could spec the interior décor and other fitting out items such as electronics and rigging.

If you were to call Nordhavn at the Dana Point office I am sure they would spend as much time as needed to answer all of your questions.

I would recommend delivery at Dana Point. You could then head off to Hawaii or Panama depending on weather you wanted to head East or West.
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Thank you for this but the reason I am looking 3 years out is I can't access my retirement money until then. So I am in the planning stage. We will board and inspect boats at boat shows and private showings before then. Also I mentioned we are scheduling Caribbean charters. I hope to have a lot of captain training cruses and charters before then as well. Preferably on these boats.
 
That Vripack is a lot of boat for the price and the OP will like that it seems to know the way to Phuket already.

Virpack.JPG

I've anchored off that Hong myself.
DSCF0007.jpg

When we circumnavigated the sail cat was still a little rare, they are mainstream on the circuit now. Circumnavigating powerboats were fairly rare back then. They still are, mostly because of cost and complexity compared to the usually more minimalist sailboats.
Be aware you will spend a lot of time either repairing, or arranging to have repaired, the multitude of systems on board the Virpack, or any boat like it. That will be even harder if you like to get off the beaten track a lot.
That said it will probably be the most exciting and rewarding chapter of your life. It certainly was (so far) for us.
 
Great Harbor is an interesting trawler. They have an interesting article about their hull form and ballast. They have two engines with protected props. The interior looks more like a house than a trawler. FPB should definitely be on your short list. Also check out some of the Dutch trawlers.

Since you have a few more years before you're ready to retire, I'd suggest using that time to get a small used trawler to do some local cruising and learning with. It will definitely make you a more knowledgeable buyer and perhaps even save you money in the long run. Maybe not.

You are about to have the time of your life!

Cheers!
 
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You may want to take a look at Selene's to see if there is something that catches your eye.
 
That Vripack is absolute boat porn. Realistically if you are a world cruiser, it doesn't matter where you start...

CE ratings do matter outside of North America.
 
Dirtdoc1, the GHs has always looked top heavy to me. I dont know the A/B ratio but, personally I'd hate to (try) dock it in a wind.
 
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RedRascal said:
You may want to take a look at Selene's to see if there is something that catches your eye.
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They have a very nice look to them.
So this begs the question to you old salts; my three picks for around the world cruising in comfort and safety, should we substitute one of my picks for a more worthy vessel? I'm thinking the Fleming may be more of a coastal cruiser and need to look more towards long range and comfort. I'm concerned about stabilizer reliability, I'm concerned about repairs at sea. The FPB may not make the list because my wife (the boss) says the interior looks like a sanitarium... I wonder how she knows?
 
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Ya know, when you buy a boat you can 'teak' the interior how ever you wish.
Even if you buy the perfect boat, you will begin to change it "for your convenience" and "reflect 'you'"
 
Magneto said:
I'm concerned about stabilizer reliability, I'm concerned about repairs at sea.
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Thinking about repairs at sea is very important for any distance cruising boat.


But stabilizer reliability is really not a problem, or no more of a risk than any other system.


Everyone points to the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally, and "all the stabilizer failures". That was 15 years ago, and when stabilizers were a pretty new thing on small boats. All the failures were with early generation Naiads, and all newish Nordhavns are ABT, and significantly over engineered and over built. It's just not an issue, and hasn't been for at least 10 years.
 
The FPB's are built down here in NZ but far too much design focus on the long voyages rather than living on the boat when you get there for me.
Unpainted aluminium is a great start however.
Go to a some big brokerage shows. They may not have exactly the boat you want but you get to see a lot of good and bad features in a short amount of time.
You already have some good features on your wish list and of course your list won't be the same as mine, or anyone else's either.
 
twistedtree said:
Thinking about repairs at sea is very important for any distance cruising boat.


But stabilizer reliability is really not a problem, or no more of a risk than any other system.


Everyone points to the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally, and "all the stabilizer failures". That was 15 years ago, and when stabilizers were a pretty new thing on small boats. All the failures were with early generation Naiads, and all newish Nordhavns are ABT, and significantly over engineered and over built. It's just not an issue, and hasn't been for at least 10 years.
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So you are quite unaware of the long history of Naiad stabilizers installed on globe trotting yachts much earlier than the existence of Nordhavn or ABT.

Some reading for on the topic: http://www.naiad.com/NAIAD_DYNAMICS_Company_Profile.pdf
 
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mvweebles said:
The good news is its harder and takes longer to pay for a boat like this than to learn how to operate it safely so the OP is over halfway there.
Good luck!
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Long time listener. I think this is a quality quote.
 
Magneto said:
...Our experience; Almost none. I have power boat and sailboat experience but nothing like this purchase. I’m a quick study and I have had a year of navigation and Captain license classes and my wife and I will study towards our captain’s license before purchasing...
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This is an interesting difference between Canada and the US: in Canada you need to have a certain number of “current” commercial hours logged in order to obtain a 100 or whatever tonnage license, AND you need recently obtained hours for renewal.

For example for the 60 ton ticket you need 60 days, and for the 350 ton license you need 12 months. For a Fishing Master license of 100 tons you need 12 months.

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/sor-97-391/latest/sor-97-391.html

That’s why you seldom see many Canadian recreational vessel owners with 100 ton licenses and the like.

Jim
 
Have you tried an around-the-world cruise on a ship? Much more cost-effective. Disadvantage: you would not be the master and commander.
 
I read through the thread and can’t really anything, except to emphasize: Make sure crossing oceans is what you want to do. There are many enthusiasts who sell the boat immediately on crossing their first ocean. As mentioned earlier see if you can crew on an ocean crossing to see if this something you want to do.

Then to emphasize: get on all of these boats and make sure they are what you want.

If I was crossing oceans, I think I’d do it in as large a Nordhavn as possible. However, I have no wish to do so, so my requirements (and resources) are less than that.

We found that the living space in in the 42’ to 48 KK’s exceeded that of similarly sized Nordhavns: the 40’ Nordy is cramped. The 42’ KK is spacious by comparison.

The larger the boat, the less you can do yourself: waxing a 68’ hull is not something one does just for fun! It took me a week to do a 42’ KK42.

Also, while fuel is the least of expensive item, it’s not cheap when crossing oceans to places where it sells for $8/gallon and you need 2000.
 
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Seems to me the only maybe sorta-kinda negative about the Nordhavns was about the individual inside areas being smaller, not as open as with some other boats. And the reason given at the time is that it's easier to keep from bouncing around and becoming injured on ocean crossings in smaller spaces with better handholds and so forth, which seems an entirely logical design choice, too. I don't remember that comment well enough to know if it mentioned any comparison to KKs or other boats...

-Chris
 
ranger42c said:
Seems to me the only maybe sorta-kinda negative about the Nordhavns was about the individual inside areas being smaller, not as open as with some other boats. And the reason given at the time is that it's easier to keep from bouncing around and becoming injured on ocean crossings in smaller spaces with better handholds and so forth, which seems an entirely logical design choice, too. I don't remember that comment well enough to know if it mentioned any comparison to KKs or other boats...

-Chris
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Up until about 15-yrs ago when PMM bought the franchise , I worked closely with Trawler Fest. My observation, KKs appeal to women. Nordhavn to men. Men talk about ER and dry stack. Women like the open salon and dislike the gigantic box in the middle (for the dry stack). An over generalization, but you get the idea

Look, with decent planning and some seamanship skills, the boat makes less of a difference as long as it can carry sufficient fuel and stores. Joshua Slocum circumnavigate in a more or less river barge that was well known to be a PoS even at the time. These are all safe, well found vessels. Focus should therefore be on making the trek as comfortable and trouble free as possible. To my thinking, that means erring on the side of simplicity, not complexity. And using seamanship skills to fill gaps, not technology. For example, rather than buying a boat that can weather the perfect storm, get comfortable with wx and routing to make your own passage decisions.
 
twistedtree said:
Everyone points to the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally, and "all the stabilizer failures". That was 15 years ago, and when stabilizers were a pretty new thing on small boats. All the failures were with early generation Naiads, and all newish Nordhavns are ABT, and significantly over engineered and over built. It's just not an issue, and hasn't been for at least 10 years.
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Crossing an ocean as a journalist is exciting three times. When you depart and when you arrive and when things go wrong. I think the writeups about Nordhavn and stabilizer failures were exciting because it broke the monotony of the trip.

Stabilizers are kind of like air conditioning. Everyone got along fine without them. No one would purposely decide they weren’t needed and then remove them or turn them off.
 
mvweebles said:
My observation, KKs appeal to women. Nordhavn to men. Men talk about ER and dry stack. Women like the open salon and dislike the gigantic box in the middle (for the dry stack). An over generalization, but you get the idea
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That's pretty funny because back when we were looking at the KK58 and Nordhavn 60, it was my wife who put the kibosh on the KK. She said the shape (sweeping deck line) looked like something out of a Mother Goose story. But we all have different taste. Now looking back on both boats, the Nordhavn was the right pick for us.


Re interior space, fuel capacity is definitely a factor in how much interior living space is available. Just to show some contrast, a Fleming 65 hold 1700 gal, where my Nordhavn 68 holds 3400 - double the fuel. That takes a lot of space, and is the price you pay (or at least one of them) for longer range.
 
I spent thousands of hours working on fishing boats as a deckhand when I was a kid and experienced plenty of weather, some of which resulted in getting splayed out horizontal on the deck. I am still physically active, but my body doesn’t handle these conditions like it used to and I have no desire to experience it if possible. Stabilizers reduce physical and mental fatigue, and make the trip safer for the crew. This is our first boat with stabilizers and I consider it one of the best investments we made. To me, it’s a no brainer for an ocean crosser.
 
"Crossing an ocean as a journalist is exciting three times. When you depart and when you arrive and when things go wrong."

This pretty much sums up ocean crossings - after x number of days watching the water go by it can get pretty boring.

Granted there is great sense of accomplishment upon arrival (having overcome any unexpected mechanical, personal or weather related issues) being somewhere you have never been before.

As others have said, try doing a long passage before buying to see if it's what you really want and neither of you get seasick.
 
I've been chewing on this "cross oceans" idea ever since the threads started...

Happens that doesn't figure anywhere in our ambitions, not really interested in passages on anything less than about 400' :)

But if it was a goal, I don't think I'd feel ready until after about 5 years ownership of the specific boat that I'd do the crossing in... with me having done pretty much all the maintenance and service during that time. And that's after doing this "bigger boating" thing for 35 years or so. Experience with our current boat is that it's taken me 14 years to figure out most of it, although I did have to hire some of the service when we were still working and had no time.

I'm not too bothered by the navigation, piloting, weather planning, etc. -- while still recognizing some of that can go south sometimes -- but the "keep the water out and keep the beast, and everything on it, running" over that kind of distance seems like it would be the biggest hurdle.

Opinion somewhat solidified during our recent coastal trip, with water heater, main alternator, and generator problems while underway... in a much more benign environment...

-Chris
 
I think, so far, only one response has come from (Richard on Dauntless) who actually has experience at ocean crossings and pretty much continuous global cruising. He is an exception among many people who buy a vessel with the intent of long term blue water cruising, and he does it on a relatively small KK42. To say he is an accomplished sailor is obvious. Question is how does a newbie with little to no experience gain the required knowledge and skills to learn, maintain, and handle a complicated vessel underway for extended periods in remote locations, and probable extreme weather conditions. I think the answer is obvious. It takes time, training, practical hands-on sea time and learning from your own mistakes along the way. Short-circuiting the learning curve is high risk no matter the size or type of vessel. Plus, as others have stated the OP may well find, as others have, that many continuous days at sea in a slow trawler is not that much fun - kind of boring, unless things go wrong!!
 
darkside said:
The FPB's are built down here in NZ but far too much design focus on the long voyages rather than living on the boat when you get there for me.
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Damn good advice! Long distance cruising can be very boring and impact a marriage. Get a nice interior set up and your wife may stay with you longer. (I'm assuming that's a plus in your case.) :blush:
 
Simi 60 said:
Or ......

90ocean-catamaran-explorer-yacht.jpg



90 Ocean Voyager Catamaran Report | Buy Explorer Yachts


But the one I posted previously, Sher Khan is easily world capable with a 10,000 nm range and relatively economical with twin 8lxb Gardners for propulsion.
Had a $2m us price tag

Sherkhan_Exterior1.jpg


Sher Khan
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It is interesting that they take a high speed ferry catamaran design and turn it into a semi-displacement catamaran. Some really nice features with a 30’ beam and the ability to vary speed and easily hit the 300nm per 24 hour passage making bench mark..

But it still will has a few Cat traits underway that would be noticeable and uncomfortable in certain headings into a sea. Seas on the stern quarter being one. This still requires trim control / foils and you are back to managing a system just like stabilizers.

The SWATH is a different animal in twin hulls and as a pure hull form is still the benchmark for owner comfort underway, but is certainly more expensive to build. It allows you to vary the depth of the hulls for the sea / speed and is proven at displacement speeds in Research and Naval applications.

For simplicity sake though it still takes me back to a Dashew FPB type vessel as it is less complicated, don’t mind managing he stabilizer system along with fixed bilge keels and a 70’ can be handled by an experienced crew of 2. Don’t have to have a big party onboard all the time and deal with a 30’ beam inside harbors. About the only thing I would investigate would be a hard chined version to increase form stability , especially at zero speed.
 
twistedtree said:
That's pretty funny because back when we were looking at the KK58 and Nordhavn 60, it was my wife who put the kibosh on the KK. She said the shape (sweeping deck line) looked like something out of a Mother Goose story. But we all have different taste. Now looking back on both boats, the Nordhavn was the right pick for us.


Re interior space, fuel capacity is definitely a factor in how much interior living space is available. Just to show some contrast, a Fleming 65 hold 1700 gal, where my Nordhavn 68 holds 3400 - double the fuel. That takes a lot of space, and is the price you pay (or at least one of them) for longer range.
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I stand by that comment. As i recall, you decided to wet exhaust your nordhavn. Must be something in the water where you live.

Kidding aside, I really respected your reasoning for going with wet exhaust. Made a ton of sense to me.
 
Magneto said:
Thank you for this but the reason I am looking 3 years out is I can't access my retirement money until then. So I am in the planning stage.
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Now THAT is a novel plan. Retirement money that funds the purchase of a yacht! Why didn't the rest of us think of that? :socool:
 
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