Nordic Tug vs. American Tug

[NTSCOUT]

Scout, you are awfully harsh.
A showboat is different than other factory boats? The last NT I saw at a boat show was one that had been purchased by a charter company. I didnt seem to find any difference in fit and finish. If anything, I saw improvement of build quality over older Nordic Tugs.

As far as a company getting a line of credit is concerned, what good company wants to rely on a line of credit? More importantly , what customer would want their builder to be using a line of credit? Finance costs will always be passed on to the customer.

Regarding the comments about payments, it is only good business to have everything paid for by the time a boat is finished. If a buyer somehow comes up short of cash on their build, it endangers the health of the company and all the other orders in production.

Sure if you want to go and get an AT go ahead, but you are not going to get far here bashing NT. The last I heard from the local dealer is the factory is operating at full capacity right now and the orders are backed up. Sur3e AT has been pretty busy for the last few years while NT seemed like it was on the brink. But today its a different story. A question you may ask yourself is why is AT now losing so many sales to NT after such a good run?

As far as motors go, I , too, would insist on a cummins, deer or kubota. I did notice the last NT49 that rolled off the production line in September had a Cummins engine in it.

As regards harsh or not harsh, that is a matter of opinion. Being an engineer, I like to deal in facts with little emotion. One persons facts maybe another's harsh statements. Given building a boat is a risky proposition on a good day, I prefer err on the side of black and white instead of gray.

As far as pay as one builds a boat, I agree that the funds should be verified and possibly escrowed to fund the build. Where I differ is that the funds should be held by a third party escrow company not paid to the builder as the build progresses. If they need cash to cover the build, that is where an operating line comes in

Finally, as to Nordic's backlog, I would take a dealer's statement with a grain of salt. Why would they say anything different than life is great and we are busy. To do otherwise gives a buyer leverage on price negotiations.

 

[Marin]

The best contact can not protect your place in the line of creditors. When the banks ate finished with them, you won't even get the turnips.

That can certainly be the case. But sometimes things work out well for the consumer. My wife was far down the line in a suit brought against her dentist. There were insurance companies in line as well. Much to our surprise she was awarded a very substantial settlement. So it can happen.

But in the slim pickings world of boat manufacturing I'm sure you are correct the vast majority of the time.

 

[pewterputter]

Contracts can be written but they are only worth anything to me when signed by a person who cares about the reputation of the company he represents. A builder who cares about his reputation will not only honor his contract but will also make accommodations beyond the contract (within reason) in the interest of building or protecting his reputation.

As much as business has changed, it's still the reputation that will make or break the company I think.

 

[THD]

NT-I can't speak to the build issues with the Nordic Tug, but you are unrealistic if you are expecting any builder to build you a boat without taking payment during the course of the build. No builder is going to build a boat completely on their own dime. Every custom, semi-custom or production contract I have reviewed for clients calls for progress payments at specified points during the build. Most commonly a first down payment on contract signing of around 20-25%, another % on major machinery installation, when the hull deck join is done, etc. This does not usually result in the boat being fully paid for by completion but is normally structured to cover the builder's costs with the final payment on buyer's acceptance essentially representing the builder's profit. Would a home builder build you a house without any progress payments? No, so why should a boat builder be any different? As B&B and others have noted, you need to do your due diligence up front because you are going to be giving the builder $$ during the build.

 

[CPseudonym]

So, been considering moving up in boat size from the 26 Nordic I have now. I love my 26 but it is one of the original Nordics not a new Nordic, so wondering if anyone else has compared Nordic's current build quality with American Tug?

I have toured the Nordic Factory and was not terribly impressed - the layout wasn't all that efficient which may contribute to the high cost on new boats. I also have talked to new Nordic owners and they say the build quality is just not there anymore. I can't get a Cummins or Cat diesel only Volvo on the Nordic which I don't want due to cost and service issues. Not sure why Cummins won't do business with Nordic but the Cummins reps tell me they don't sell to Nordic any longer. Finally, have not had good experiences with the local Nordic Tug dealership as of late so won't buy thru them - puts me buying out of area.

All that is to say, American is back in the running. I like the look of the American Tug but heard from a good source that stabilizers are a problem area for American. Also, curious about build quality compared to Nordic.

Any comments?

With all the mud slinging I thought this was an anchor thread

So obviously you are not a fan of the Nordic build process. Have you learned anything about American Tugs? Kinda what this thread started out with you asking. That is before it turned into just another anchor thread.

 

[sunchaser]

I like the look of the American Tug but heard from a good source that stabilizers are a problem area for American. Also, curious about build quality compared to Nordic.

Any comments?

I'm sure you can get an AT with stabilizers. Few do it as hull design doesn't require them at +10 knots. Have you talked with them, if not I can provide you the right contact.

 

[bligh]

Finally, as to Nordic's backlog, I would take a dealer's statement with a grain of salt. Why would they say anything different than life is great and we are busy. To do otherwise gives a buyer leverage on price negotiations.

Scout (Jim),
I thought you only deal with black and white? Speculation is not black and white. The dealer I spoke with had nothing to gain from his statement, he had no boats to sell other than a 54 because he sold all of the others.


Here is black and white for you:
I just got off the phone with Dave Allen at the factory. He told me they have 5 boats in production right now and are nearly fully booked with builds at least for the rest of the year.

And a note from another NT employee;
"The answer is we have 8 customer sold boats in various stages of production from in lamination to almost ready to ship. These boats are (2) 34's, (3) 39's, (2) 42's, and (1) new 40. We also have the following customer sold boats waiting on the their build slots to start. (1) 26' NT, (2) 34 NT, (5) 40 Dealer inventory boats, and (2) 42' Nordic Tugs. We already shipped (1) 39 early this year. All added up that is 19 boats on the books and we are not even thru Feb. In summary, it is going to be a great year! We have a new dealer coming on line soon, and we have doubled our staff since this time last year, and climbing."

I guess all the other new NT buyers out there must be getting duped, huh? (they are probably not busy "being an engineer.")

 

[Carolena]

"Being an engineer, I like to deal in facts . . . ."
- Still waiting for the facts, here, not in PM. This is where the statements began and if someone is searching the interweb about NT and AT, they should be able to consider all the facts. If someone found a problem with the boats or the company, I'd want to know the facts to make my own evaluation and reach my own conclusions.

"As far as pay as one builds a boat, I agree that the funds should be verified and possibly escrowed to fund the build. Where I differ is that the funds should be held by a third party escrow company not paid to the builder as the build progresses."
- I'm not aware of any semi-custim run boat builder who will do this. Does AT do this? Would be surprised if they do, but I don't know.

"Finally, as to Nordic's backlog, I would take a dealer's statement with a grain of salt. Why would they say anything different than life is great and we are busy. To do otherwise gives a buyer leverage on price negotiations."
- So what you are saying is that when someone says I want to comission a new boat and they are told that it will be six months before construction can even start, the dealer is just saying this for price leverage? That makes no sense, as the buyer could walk or change their mind in the interim. The factory has been hiring more people and I don't think that is just for show or price leverage.

It seems clear that for some reason you had a bad experience trying to get information on a new build, yet you said a little while back that you think new builds don't make economic sense. Right or wrong, maybe the sales people came to the same conclusion and that is why you were not treated the way you expected. I don't know, as we don't have all the facts.

If you aren't going to get a new NT for whatever reason, that is your choice, but I find it troubling that you keep bashing the company and have yet to present any facts in support of your opinions in this thread that you started. You could have just said does anyone have experience with AT that you can share. Instead, you keep comming back to not liking NT. I still have an open mind and want to reach my own conclusions, but as of now, we can't. Nor can anyone else that reads this.

 

[Marin]

The question of which to buy, Nordic Tug or American Tug, would seem to be pretty easy for an individual to answer. Both companies and their fabrication plants are in the same area. There are lots of examples of both types of boats in the same area, so examining dealership newbuilds and individually owned examples, new and older, is just a matter of some driving and walking around.

Once the potential buyer has determined which make and model will best suit their needs, it's then a matter of judging the company that makes it and the dealer(s) who sell it. In my opinon, this is a totally individual process. Relationships with manufacturer representatives and dealers will be good, bad or indifferent depending on the personalities involved.

The merits of a contract have to judged by the buyer and maybe his or her attorney, and it, too, is a totally individual judgement. What one person feels is a good contract another person may balk at.

Nobody on an internet forum, or even people the buyer knows in person, can make the decision. Boaters can say look out for this, or be aware of that, or make sure you check out such-and-such. And other boaters can relate individual experiences they may have had with the boats in question.

That information can be helpful--- if we had been bombarded with lots of credible people telling us that Arimas and Grand Banks were absolute crap boats we would have re-evaluated our preferences for these two particular brands. But in the end, all the forum posting and opinionating and "this happened to me" storytelling won't make the decision.

Kevin up in Alaska asked this forum what kind of new anchor he should get. You can imagine what kind of a discussion thread that started, right? In the end, Kevin made his decision based on what he had learned in his own research, perhaps some things he found of value in the forum discussion, and--- and this is really important---- the gut feel he got from the manufacturer; the relationship they built in discussing the product and the way this particular manufacturer stands behind its product.

That, to me, is the smart way to go about it, whether it's an anchor, a boat, or a career change.

The original poster in this thread has really bad feelings about Nordic Tug. Bad enough, it seems, to warrant not doing business with them. Well, that's part of the decision made then, I would think. Either resolve the differences one has with the product and the company or cross them off the list.

I don't know didley about American Tugs other than we were shown around a new 34-footer at the dock on Sucia Island back when they first came out and I remember being very impressed by the clever and smart use of space. So I have no reasons to warn a buyer off of American Tugs. Nor do I have credible reasons to warn someone off Nordic Tugs. There was the engine swap incident I related, but I don't know the details of that case so the only value in relating it is to remind buyers to be damn sure you get what you get what you ask and pay for, which applies to pretty much any purchase, not just Nordic Tug.

If I really wanted a specific style of cruising boat and my research and dock-walking and interviewing and maybe chartering had narrowed it down to two manufacturers, and then I determined that one of them I didn't want to do business with for whatever reasons, well then, my decision has been made hasn't it?

 

[NTSCOUT]

Scout (Jim),
I thought you only deal with black and white? Speculation is not black and white. The dealer I spoke with had nothing to gain from his statement, he had no boats to sell other than a 54 because he sold all of the others.


Here is black and white for you:
I just got off the phone with Dave Allen at the factory. He told me they have 5 boats in production right now and are nearly fully booked with builds at least for the rest of the year.

And a note from another NT employee;
"The answer is we have 8 customer sold boats in various stages of production from in lamination to almost ready to ship. These boats are (2) 34's, (3) 39's, (2) 42's, and (1) new 40. We also have the following customer sold boats waiting on the their build slots to start. (1) 26' NT, (2) 34 NT, (5) 40 Dealer inventory boats, and (2) 42' Nordic Tugs. We already shipped (1) 39 early this year. All added up that is 19 boats on the books and we are not even thru Feb. In summary, it is going to be a great year! We have a new dealer coming on line soon, and we have doubled our staff since this time last year, and climbing."

I guess all the other new NT buyers out there must be getting duped, huh? (they are probably not busy "being an engineer.")

I am not going to even address the personal insults in previous posts and PM's. For whatever reason, there seems to be a religious affiliation to various tug manufacturers that surpasses intellect.

My comments are merely a recapitulation of my experiences with NT trying to build a new boat. Others may have a different experience.

As for those that like to reference the local Anacortes Nordic Tug dealer; work with that dealer at your own risk. I recently negotiated an out of court settlement with that dealer in relation to a Washington Consumer Fraud Complaint and a Theft by Deception complaint. Facts are facts - the dealer billed and was paid for work not done. Simple issue, simple complaint, simple settlement.

As for the NT cheerleaders, maybe a little bit of that sage, William Shakespeare, might be enlightening. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

Good luck all on boat choices.