Oil Samples Worthwhile?

[StuartT]

So after making moves on several boats over the last two months, I settled on and will survey a 1995 Ocean Alexander 42 Sedan next Tuesday. This will be the second one I have owned, the first being a 1989 years ago.
I just got a copy of the service records and find that the last service was done a month ago and the boat only has 1 hour on the engines bringing it back to the marina. I deliberated not taking oil samples since they are unlikely to provide any significant information, especially with a history of routine maintenance. My dilemma is waiting a week longer to close if I have to wait for the oil samples to be processed and the results returned. I am going to take the samples regardless, I already have the kits, but is the wait to close worth it with the summer coming to a close soon? What would you do?

Forgot to mention, the transmissions were also serviced. The engines are 3208TA 425hp.

 

[tiltrider1]

A 3208 375 hp is pretty bulletproof. The 3208TA 425 hp had some issues. A lot depends on how hard the engine was used. An OA 42 could have easily spent its life traveling at 25+ knots or it could have spent Its life traveling at 10 knots.

A one shot oil analysis is only going to tell you if something catastrophic has already occurred. You could probably tell as much by looking at the exhaust gases.

I don’t like the situation you are in, being forced to make an uneducated decision quickly. I would ask for maintenance logs. Was this a standard interval oil change or was it changed at 50 hours to cover up something?

All I can advise is to ask more questions.

 

[DavidM]

An oil sample on an engine with only 1 hr since it was changed is nearly worthless.

David

 

[StuartT]

I agree with both of you. One thing I do know, the previous service was in 2022, 2 year interval and that is not uncommon. The PO has a laundry list of upgrades, improvement, etc. He has poured a bunch of money into the boat. New risers, new heat exchangers, shaft seals, all recent.
I have enlisted a CAT qualified mechanic with 30 years of experience. He can shed additional light on the value of the oil samples after he has completed his inspection. Nice, pretty, fresh clean oil is not going to tell me much. I can only hope his experience prevails.

 

[SteveK]

An oil sample on an engine with only 1 hr since it was changed is nearly worthless.

David

I agree, any old oil will be diluted with fresh. Oil samples are best before oil change with a reference to a previous test. A one off will not show a condition worsening, it may show if coolant or raw water in excess occurred in the one hour engine run.
Cheap insurance though, get it done and have your previous sample test to compare before next oil change.

 

[O C Diver]

While oil samples with one hour are of low value, they still have value.

When I purchased Slow Hand, the transmission cooler was failing (900 hours in 12 years). I replaced the cooler and it took 4 oil changes to get the oil sampling to show sodium in single digits.

There are some values that should be zero or near zero. One oil change from an engine with a main bearing problem will still have a flag for lead.

IMO, for what you're spending on the haulout, survey and mechanic, oil analysis on engines, transmissions, and generators is a very small price in overall due diligence.

Ted

 

[tiltrider1]

If it’s any help, some one doesn’t normally spend money on risers and heat exchangers for a bad engine.

 

[StuartT]

Please remember everybody, I am not suggesting I skip the oil samples. I have 5 kits and I intend to use them. The question is, what is the percentage of risk to go ahead and accept the boat and close escrow prior to oil sample results based on the CAT mechanics analysis of the engines and transmissions. If the risk is more than very minimal, I will wait it out even though it screws up my plans for the last part of the cruising season.

 

[tiltrider1]

There is risk. I think minimal. I also invest in stocks, most of the time I win but sometimes I loose.

I bought my current boat without an oil analysis. I felt the risk was low. I also knew if I was wrong it only meant I would spend some money that I already had. If you are borrowing to buy this boat and have no reserves for an engine overhaul the risk might be too great.

 

[StuartT]

That is an interesting way to look at it.

 

[firehoser75]

There is risk. I think minimal. I also invest in stocks, most of the time I win but sometimes I loose.

I bought my current boat without an oil analysis. I felt the risk was low. I also knew if I was wrong it only meant I would spend some money that I already had. If you are borrowing to buy this boat and have no reserves for an engine overhaul the risk might be too great.

Good points!!! It sounds like minimal risk (based on what we can tell from your info), but if, ...if it goes bad, can you deal with it financially or would it be a total "back breaker"?

 

[StuartT]

Yes, I could handle a major expense. But like anyone, I would sure hate to replace an engine.
The worst case is probably unlikely. I just have to assign a risk value to the possibilities.

 

[tiltrider1]

OA 42’s in general are great boats. They came most often with CAT 3208TA 425 hp or DD 6-53 at 450 hp.

Both engines are high strung. Both engines would last forever if traveling at 10 kts. Both engines are trouble if pushed above 350 hp for considerable portions of there usage.

Dd 6-53 are much cheaper to overhaul but require overhaul more frequently. The DD 6-53 are faster and as previously mentioned faster comes with a price.

You probably have found a good one and will probably have no issues with It. It’s just nothing is ever a sure thing with boats.

 

[O C Diver]

Please remember everybody, I am not suggesting I skip the oil samples. I have 5 kits and I intend to use them. The question is, what is the percentage of risk to go ahead and accept the boat and close escrow prior to oil sample results based on the CAT mechanics analysis of the engines and transmissions. If the risk is more than very minimal, I will wait it out even though it screws up my plans for the last part of the cruising season.

I see no reason to do the oil analysis if you're not going to wait for the results before closing. I would consider seeing if the company you use will expedite the analysis based on a boat purchase. Don't know till you call.

Regarding cruising this year, please tell me what it's like to truly buy a turnkey boat. I don't know anyone that bought either new or used without a punch list.

Ted

 

[Bacchus]

Please remember everybody, I am not suggesting I skip the oil samples. I have 5 kits and I intend to use them. The question is, what is the percentage of risk to go ahead and accept the boat and close escrow prior to oil sample results based on the CAT mechanics analysis of the engines and transmissions. If the risk is more than very minimal, I will wait it out even though it screws up my plans for the last part of the cruising season.

In light of your current situation I would be more interested in PO maint records instead of oil analysis. If PO records show reasonable care w naint and no visible signs of smoking etc I would value records and your or a mechanics impression unless there are any caution flags that concern you. Save the sample kits until you have reasonable hrs for an honest sample/ analysis.

 

[C lectric]

Hard to pick which way to go. Phone the testing co. and ask if they can expedite the results. Email them or phone call but ask.

Also ask for the maintenance records and peruse them. If not available then that should be a red flag.

 

[mvweebles]

Please remember everybody, I am not suggesting I skip the oil samples. I have 5 kits and I intend to use them. The question is, what is the percentage of risk to go ahead and accept the boat and close escrow prior to oil sample results based on the CAT mechanics analysis of the engines and transmissions. If the risk is more than very minimal, I will wait it out even though it screws up my plans for the last part of the cruising season.

May I ask why the accelerated acceptance period? Sales process builds-in a due diligence period which includes buyer-specified tests and examinations. Oil analysis is a customary test so there should be no problem. Should only take a few days - would really suck to close on a boat and find out the next day you have a serious issue lurking. My wife would never let me off the hook for that......

That said, there is still modest value in having the analysis done even if not part of due diligence. Will be data point number one in your maintenance log for oil analysis.

BTW - if there are decent maintenance logs, you may be able to deduce how hard the boat was run based on fuel fill-ups vs hours-run.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Peter

 

[StuartT]

Lots of good thoughts and recommendations/cautions here. Thank you, guys.
Am waiting for a call from the CAT mechanic who will do the engine survey. I'll have more clarity on my decision after talking with him.

 

[tiltrider1]

Looking forward to hearing your Mechanics report.

 

[StuartT]

Okay, here's the latest.

Talked to Lab One, Inc in Phoenix where I buy my oil sample kits. They told me what I expected, that the oil samples are not likely to show much unless there is something developing rather quickly, or there is residue from the previous oil tainting the fresh oil.

Then the CAT guy called and he said the same as above, but added that in this situation, the comparison between the engine sample results should be very close to equal, if not, it might point to a problem that will continue to become more prevalent as hours are added. He recommended taking the sample just for that reason if no other. And that is what we are going to do.

 

[tiltrider1]

Sounds logical.

 

[StuartT]

Here is an update on the oil analysis issue. The broker asked me if I learned what a correct number of hours should be for sampling. Humm, good question. I called Lab One in Phoenix and asked them. They recommend at least ½ or more of the normal oil change interval. For example, at least 50 or more hours on a normal 100 hour schedule. Now we know.

And about the Ocean Alexander I was purchasing? There is a high degree of probably that the owner was just routinely servicing the engines and transmissions in June and only put an hour on them getting back to the marina. But a small chance still exists that he unknowingly (or knowingly) was covering up a problem. In the end, this is a financial exposure I just can’t seem to get past, and I pulled out of the deal. This because I am the only one left holding the bag if my concerns turn out to be true.

 

[jleonard]

In 2019 i wasnt sure if I wanted to sell the Albin, but i decided to take oil samples of engine, tranny, and generator just begore winter layup just in case. Turns out i did put it up for sale and sold it as soon as it was launched in spring 2020.
Everything was fine on the samples so im glad i did it that way as i had nothing to hide.
Otherwise tje samples would have been taken with 6 hours on the fluids and maybe some untrusting potential buyer may have walked.
Everyone has their own risk and trust level.

 

[sunchaser]

Pay a good Cat guy for engine survey. This can tell you a lot. All too often a good oil sample is considered the gold standard for engine health, far from it.

Is the bilge clean, are the engines rusty, when were the after coolers last serviced, yada yada. BTW, anything over 3,000 hours on a 40 year old poor history Cat 3208 375 HP would be a no go for me.

 

[tiltrider1]

a small chance still exists that he unknowingly (or knowingly) was covering up a problem. In the end, this is a financial exposure I just can’t seem to get past, and I pulled out of the deal. This because I am the only one left holding the bag if my concerns turn out to be true.

I see this frequently. There is no correct answer. The answer is always different for different people and different boats. If you weren’t prepared to pay for an engine overhaul you chose wisely.

One two things will happen. Either a different boat will come your way or the seller will put 50 hours on his boat to prove you have nothing to worry about. Happy hunting.

 

[paulga]

I opted the analysis out. At the time of survey, an oil change was already done by the seller, so I assumed the analysis report will be biased.

some useful guide: Oil_Analysis_on_Diesel_Boats

 

[SteveK]

The broker asked me if I learned what a correct number of hours should be for sampling.

What a strange question from a broker. Now I would certainly do an oil sample, or walk from the boat. As another said, I did an oil sample in case I was selling to eliminate any concerns. Now you have to ask why did the seller not do an oil sample.

 

[StuartT]

What a strange question from a broker. Now I would certainly do an oil sample, or walk from the boat. As another said, I did an oil sample in case I was selling to eliminate any concerns. Now you have to ask why did the seller not do an oil sample.

I don't think you read through this thread. Your post is confusing. Why would you do an oil sample now? That ship has sailed. Let me explain.

The owner changed the oil and the boat was listed. No oil samples taken. As a potential customer, I asked for thoughts on this site, my CAT mechanic, and the lab where the samples would be processed if there were any rational in sampling brand new oil. The broker simply asked if anyone had expressed opinions as to when the best time would be to take oil samples. He had no axe to grind when he asked, just an opportunity to learn like all of us.

I did walk from the boat as you suggest. And your last sentence is valid.

 

[SteveK]

I don't think you read through this thread. Your post is confusing. Why would you do an oil sample now? That ship has sailed. Let me explain.

Stuart, I give up. I have read every post, so explain where I missed you had already walked. AND I still find that question from the broker suspicious.

 

[StuartT]

Steve, you said "Now I would certainly do an oil sample, or walk from the boat." Why would I do an oil sample now. That would produce no valid result as has already been expressed by most everyone.

I have to leave for a dinner party so if there is more dialog needed, it will have to wait. Sorry.