Only 90V AC Shore power

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To be clear it sounds like two things are going on, each of which should be addressed.

Many AC units do want 230-240v vs 208v and either don't run well.or blow breakers or boyh at 208v. An boost transformer fixes this.

You are seeing 90v on what should be a 120v hot-neutral voltage difference. This is a problem because a.lot of voltage is being dropped somewhere. This is a problem because some devices won't run or run well on the lower voltage and others will run but draw more current, and because it will get worse with a greater load.

It is also a problem because wherever resistance is dropping that voltage could be acting like a resistive heater and burning things, which is dangerous, and increasingly so with time.
 
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This surprises me a bit because most "240V" appliances are rated for 208-240V for exactly this reason.

One would think...but seemingly not marine AC units. This is a huge problem. In FL those transformers line the docks.

Often times the units will run but the current draw goes up and pops breakers. Sometimes they shutdown on internal current or low voltage errors. Doing the same work at a lower voltage requires more current, etc.

And sometimes they don't run well.

Also, in older marinas like mine, there is resistence in the distribution at the marina and that drops voltage making that 208v as low as 180v on some parts of the dock, especially on weekends and holidays when demand is up.(But, in the OP's case, this isn't apparently the issue).

But....it is a (big) thing.
 
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A/C runs fine when generator on or shore power 240v. 208v? Blower turns on but 48k BTU (if I had 2-3 smaller ones, I am told 208v should not be an issue) compressor kicks on and throws the breaker. Electric stove struggles at 208v. I do not like struggling electrical anything. I am going with source voltage being too low and will investigate Buck/Boost.

Thanks.
 
So after we were browned-out at marinas (begrudgingly used the generator as the weather was dictating A/C) I had an ABYC electrician aboard who confirms the 208 vs the 240 our 48k BTU A/C monster needs is not being provided in many marinas and a boosted isolation transformer was needed to the tune of $8-10k.

Although that pays for a lot of diesel, I would rather not run the beast. So if I understand this post correctly, one could boost an un-boosted isolation transformer for many thousands less? Sounds too good to be true. What am I missing here?

The 240 v nominal voltage powers equipment rated at 220v +/- 10%. So while 208 on lower end of band, it is an acceptable input voltage. You air conditioning should tolerate just fine. Where the wye is problematic is when an isolation transformer divides the 208 resulting in 104 as this thread discusses. But the 208 is not a problem.

Sounds like a misinformed electrician to me. ABYC certification doesn’t necessary educate on this subject.
 
The 240 v nominal voltage powers equipment rated at 220v +/- 10%. So while 208 on lower end of band, it is an acceptable input voltage. You air conditioning should tolerate just fine..

This just isn't the case.

When the voltage goes down the current goes up and breakers can pop and controller can trigger immediate or timed shutdowns.

Some units and installations tolerate low voltages better than others. Older units tend not to shut down and, instead, draw more current. Whether or not the breaker pops then depends upon how it was wired and current protected when installed.

Newer units sometimes are equally tolerant, but more often shutdown. And, in any case, are limited by the installation.

In the real world, when fed 208v many, many, many units don't work either because of unit limitations (controller safety shutdowns) or installation limitations (wired and breakers for less than the required draw at a lower voltage).

And some units that work perform badly, run hotter, and/or age more quickly running at lower voltages and higher currents than what they were designed for.

This isn't theory. This is real world.

This isn't imagined. It is exactly the reason for the transformers on my dock pictured in earlier attachments. These were real pictures taken last night. I know why these units were installed. I was there when half or so of them were put in, in some cases at my recommendation. And I've seen them at plenty of local slips for the same reason.

In the OP's case, I am still very bothered by the 90v thing and very strongly think addressing that should be done with urgency. I am surprised a credentialed electrician sounded less of an alarm, if such was the case.

But, I don't doubt that a boost transformer can fix many marina HVAC issues. I've seen it. Over and over again.
 
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This just isn't the case.

When the voltage goes down the current goes up and breakers can pop and controller can trigger immediate or timed shutdowns.

Some units and installations tolerate low voltages better than others. Older units tend not to shut down and, instead, draw more current. Whether or not the breaker pops then depends upon how it was wired and current protected when installed.

Newer units sometimes are equally tolerant, but more often shutdown. And, in any case, are limited by the installation.

In the real world, when fed 208v many, many, many units don't work either because of unit limitations (controller safety shutdowns) or installation limitations (wired and breakers for less than the required draw at a lower voltage).

And some units that work perform badly, run hotter, and/or age more quickly running at lower voltages and higher currents than what they were designed for.

This isn't theory. This is real world.

This isn't imagined. It is exactly the reason for the transformers on my dock pictured in earlier attachments. These were real pictures taken last night. I know why these units were installed. I was there when half or so of them were put in, in some cases at my recommendation. And I've seen them at plenty of local slips for the same reason.

In the OP's case, I am still very bothered by the 90v thing and very strongly think addressing that should be done with urgency. I am surprised a credentialed electrician sounded less of an alarm, if such was the case.

But, I don't doubt that a boost transformer can fix many marina HVAC issues. I've seen it. Over and over again.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Can’t know what is going on at your marina (suspect the marina voltage may be low due to wiring on dock) but the 208v wye is used everywhere for 220v +/- 10% (208 to 240 range) equipment without incident. Unfair to universally condemn the 208 wye application for one bad example.
 
One would think...but seemingly not marine AC units. This is a huge problem. In FL those transformers line the docks.

Have a boat on the east coast of Florida, haven’t seen the first transformer. But I’m on the main ICW, and frequent the larger more modern marinas. Titusville, Vero Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Halifax in Daytona, for example. Yes, I can picture the older marinas we’re never designed for boats with 48,000 BTUs of air conditioning. And if a number of them on the same dock, then the voltage on the dock is likely way low to start with. See this as a marina problem. Not a reason to scare the rest of us away from a 208v supply.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience. Can’t know what is going on at your marina (suspect the marina voltage may be low due to wiring on dock) but the 208v wye is used everywhere for 220v +/- 10% (208 to 240 range) equipment without incident. Unfair to universally condemn the 208 wye application for one bad example.

I haven't made a single negative comment about power delivered via a Wye configuration. In fact, I have said that it'll produce exactly the same 208v hot-to-hot voltage as would be produced via a Delta configuration, or any other 3-phase configuration based upon 120vac RMS (or 170vac peak-to-peak) sine wave voltage with three distinct phases, each 120 degrees apart.

I don't at all mind writing that, as compared to electricity delivered via transformers with a Delta configuration, Wye delivery is really nice for marinas in that it provides 120v phase-to-neutral, just like residential hot-to-neutral vs delta which has no neutral at all and only normally provides phase-to-phase voltage. (And, there are plenty more configurations than Wye and Delta, and combinations with primary and secondary winding, etc).

I'm also not condemning 3-phase 208v delivery, more generally. Nor am I condemning it in marinas. As I've said, for a lot of really good reasons, it is how power is delivered in the US outside of residential settings, with very few exceptions.

But, what I am suggesting is that if a devices with a nominal voltage requirement of 240v is blowing breakers or shutting down for being over current or shutting down or not working for unknown reasons -- and it is also being served up less than its nominal voltage requirement, Occam's Razor suggests the two are related and an easy fix. This is doubly true when the equipment is proven to operate correctly within normal tolerances of its nominal voltage.

I am also saying that this situation isn't novel, that there are a ton of commercial products sold to solve exactly this problem, and that this solution has been time tested in many, many, many similar situations for boaters at marinas. I've posted pictures and others here have offered manufacturers and model numbers.

If you'd like to offer up a different solution, please do. But, I want to be clear that in offering up this one, I am condemning nothing. I am criticizing nothing. I am finding fault with nothing.

I'm just trying to get my poor, sweaty, fellow boater some air conditioning in the same way I have many others do the same under circumstances that surely seem similar.

If you've got another solution, pretty please do offer it. It might help turn the cooling on!

Let me end this post again noting that I remain urgently concerned about the 90v thing and urge that it be investigated and addressed as quickly as possible. I don't want that to get lost anywhere, because it is actually a bigger concern to me than air conditioning!
 
Have a boat on the east coast of Florida, haven’t seen the first transformer. But I’m on the main ICW, and frequent the larger more modern marinas. Titusville, Vero Beach, New Smyrna Beach, Halifax in Daytona, for example. Yes, I can picture the older marinas we’re never designed for boats with 48,000 BTUs of air conditioning. And if a number of them on the same dock, then the voltage on the dock is likely way low to start with. See this as a marina problem. Not a reason to scare the rest of us away from a 208v supply.

I am not trying to scare anyone away from 208v supply. Instead, I am actually trying to suggest that there is no reason to be scared of a 208v supply.

There is no reason to be scared of a 208v supply because, if you happen to have this problem, there are readily available, in-stock, modestly priced devices available to solve it in a way that has been tried and true. Nothing to fear here!

More than anything, I am just trying to help a fellow boater get some AC during this hot summer!
 
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UPDATE:

Tested the Charles 12kVA Marine Power Isolation Transformer located in panel behind cabin closet. It doesn't seem to have any manual boost capability, no controls on it at all.

-208V measure at 50A outlet on dock pedestal
-210V measured at IT from Fwd 50A shore power cable connected to dock pedestal
-120V measured on cabin closet 120V outlet with Fwd Shore Power connected
-120V measured on cabin closet 120V outlet with generator running
-109V measured at Fwd AC with Fwd Shore power connected
-108V measured at Salon AC with Fwd Shore Power connected

TO DO/CONCLUSIONS:

1. Check shunt on AC distribution panel Voltmeter, it may be causing a loss/faulty reading

2. AC distribution panel voltmeter reading may be about -10V from actual AC voltage being supplied to equipment. Similar condition when generator is running, voltmeter on panel reads 110V not 120V. (i.e. -10V)

3. As long as AC units are seeing around 110V, I am at ease. Will check refridgerator when i pull it out to replace it.
 
Sometimes those old meters are just off a bit. But, sometimes they have crufty connections and they often have thin wires since they aren't carrying a load and thise wires, themselves, can get corroded, especially at the ends. Might be worth a check.

They aren't usually able to be calibrated-- but sometimes there is a calibration screw. May also be worth a quick look.
 
Btw, most of the Charles are fixed transformers. But, when aive seen configurable transformers they weren't adjusted with a knob or dial. They were adjusted by wiring to different taps inside the case.
 
UPDATE:

Tested the Charles 12kVA Marine Power Isolation Transformer located in panel behind cabin closet. It doesn't seem to have any manual boost capability, no controls on it at all.


There is no switch or control, but the Charles Iso Transformers I have seen have wiring taps to convert 208V input to 120/240V output. Using it requires some wiring and thoughtful use of a large selector switch.



-208V measure at 50A outlet on dock pedestal
-210V measured at IT from Fwd 50A shore power cable connected to dock pedestal


Is this last measurement at the IT input or output? And what are you measuring with? A hand held meter?


-120V measured on cabin closet 120V outlet with Fwd Shore Power connected


OK, this is odd, and suggests that not all of your shore power is going through the IT.


-120V measured on cabin closet 120V outlet with generator running


This makes sense


-109V measured at Fwd AC with Fwd Shore power connected
-108V measured at Salon AC with Fwd Shore Power connected


It almost sounds like only your HVAC is running through the IT.



TO DO/CONCLUSIONS:

1. Check shunt on AC distribution panel Voltmeter, it may be causing a loss/faulty reading

2. AC distribution panel voltmeter reading may be about -10V from actual AC voltage being supplied to equipment. Similar condition when generator is running, voltmeter on panel reads 110V not 120V. (i.e. -10V)


Are any of the above readings from your panel meters, or are they from a good handheld meter?


3. As long as AC units are seeing around 110V, I am at ease. Will check refridgerator when i pull it out to replace it.


A bunch of things still don't add up here.
 
Good call, twistedtree. Missed that.

Maybe it is a 208v to 240v/120v boost transformer, or even one of the automatic isoboost transformers that are now sold under a different label, and the HVAC is not connected to it?

Can the OP post a picture of the transformer, including any labels? And voltage measurements directly across the available inputs and outputs?

If it is a 12kv unit, A 48k air conditioner could be about half of its capacity. So, depending upon what else is aboard, I don't understand why it wouldnt be connected to it. Of course, if there are two...

Also I saw some mention of forward shore power. Is there stern shore power? If so which is powering what?
 
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Good call, twistedtree. Missed that.

Maybe it is a 208v to 240v/120v boost transformer, or even one of the automatic isoboost transformers that are now sold under a different label, and the HVAC is not connected to it?

Can the OP post a picture of the transformer, including any labels? And voltage measurements directly across the available inputs and outputs?

If it is a 12kv unit, A 48k air conditioner could be about half of its capacity. So, depending upon what else is aboard, I don't understand why it wouldnt be connected to it. Of course, if there are two...

Also I saw some mention of forward shore power. Is there stern shore power? If so which is powering what?

I seem to have hijacked this thread a bit. The OP does not have a 48k BTU A/C. That would be yours truly. Apologies.
 
My MS350 has 2 seperate 30 amp service so we are only one phase. Would we still have a IT and if so would anyone know where it is located? I have looked behind my panel and there is a tremendous amount of terminal boards and cabling that is very hard to follow. For example, the dock feeds (either bow or stern) come to the panel meter and breakers (a cross over if only one 30 amp service used) but then goes to the inverter/charger and back to individual breakers but not all the 110 breakers. With only one phase we get our full 110/120VAC. It's obvious that not all MS390/350s are wired the same as my bow thruster and windlass are powered with a separate group 24 battery located at the thruster with a separate charger wired to a breaker on the main panel.
 
I seem to have hijacked this thread a bit. The OP does not have a 48k BTU A/C. That would be yours truly. Apologies.

Hahaha. No wonder I kept feeling so confused about what "the boat's" configuration was! I tend to read an answer posts from my phone in between things, riding the elevator at work, standing in line, etc. I don't always looks back the re-orinet myself to the thread. Ooops!

Well, I hope you and the OP were able to pick out anything useful from whatever I wrote that might apply to you!

Sorry for my confusion!
 
STB has provided a lot of good information, but a couple of clarifications need to be made.



1. Three-phase 240V delta is simply 240V phase-to-phase. Center-tap a single phase and you get 120V. If you connect the other phase(that doesn't have a center tap) to this center tap, you get 208V. This should never be done.



2. "Single phase power is commonly used for residential use. Two single phase 120v supplies 180 degrees apart have a 240v difference. Thus is why homes get 240v." This is false. Homes have a single-phase service, and the transformer is again center tapped. There are 2 poles, not 2 phases. Hot to hot gets you 240V, either hot to the center tap(which is grounded) gets you 120V. The above refers to houses that are not fed by a 120/208Y transformer.
 
STB has provided a lot of good information, but a couple of clarifications need to be made.



1. Three-phase 240V delta is simply 240V phase-to-phase. Center-tap a single phase and you get 120V. If you connect the other phase(that doesn't have a center tap) to this center tap, you get 208V. This should never be done.



2. "Single phase power is commonly used for residential use. Two single phase 120v supplies 180 degrees apart have a 240v difference. Thus is why homes get 240v." This is false. Homes have a single-phase service, and the transformer is again center tapped. There are 2 poles, not 2 phases. Hot to hot gets you 240V, either hot to the center tap(which is grounded) gets you 120V. The above refers to houses that are not fed by a 120/208Y transformer.

Totally agree. Thanks!

I almost went back and clarified my own language about single phase service myself, but couldn't go back and edit it by the time I reread it and no one had jump on me, yet, and it didn't matter to the issue at hand, so I just left it.

I think I first, while calling it single phase, described it as two phases off by 180 degrees and later, in the same post, clarified that I actually understood it to actually be delivered by center tapping off single phase 240v, giving one phase and two poles.
My post was terribly confusing and awkward in this respect.

What I really meant to write is that it works as if two 120v deliveries 180 degrees off, but is actually 240v center tapped.
I think someone once told me that true 2-phase 240v hasn't been in use in the US since the 1920s.

In any case, I 100% agree and am very glad you clarified the thread. I kept wanting to do that, but felt I was thrashing enough with my posts already and was more concerned about the 90v and HVAC things than what some (but not I) might view as power trivia.

Thanks again!
 
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A lot of good expensive technical boat oriented solutions.
Having contracted in shipyards and up
graded several marinas my 2c is different.
208 is not an acceptable dockside power delivery. It is an industrial power supply. If thats what the power company is providing, that's what landside transformers are for. Pedistal delivery on a 50 amp plug should be 230vac. That is what small boat marine equipment is designed for. If its not that is a marina issue.
 
STB has provided a lot of good information, but a couple of clarifications need to be made.



1. Three-phase 240V delta is simply 240V phase-to-phase. Center-tap a single phase and you get 120V. If you connect the other phase(that doesn't have a center tap) to this center tap, you get 208V. This should never be done.

.

Sorry - have to make a correction here:

If you "centre tap" 3-phase 240V (that is, if you create the 4th wire - the "neutral") you will get 138V phase to neutral.

This is why 208V 4-wire is so popular for large residential type supplies (not single dwellings). You can get the advantages of 3-phase for some loads and also get 120V.

The marina dilemma is: "how to deliver 120V to the 15A and 30A outlets and to also deliver 240V to the 50A outlets". It might be better if they used the household type 240/120 single phase system, but that is not the practice.
 
A lot of good expensive technical boat oriented solutions.
Having contracted in shipyards and up
graded several marinas my 2c is different.
208 is not an acceptable dockside power delivery. It is an industrial power supply. If thats what the power company is providing, that's what landside transformers are for. Pedistal delivery on a 50 amp plug should be 230vac. That is what small boat marine equipment is designed for. If its not that is a marina issue.

I'd like to agree with you, but life has beat it out of me. Let's say we all it is a marina problem? Then what?

My home marina, which I love because of its location and some good neighbors, has 208v 50A service. The two marinas across the street? 30A service, only. None of them will upgrade for a tenant, transient or continuing. (My marina did upgrade one slip for a tenant with a very large boat, to 100A, I don't know who paid for it or how it is delivered. But, a megayacht getting mega power is only fair, I guess.) A couple of marinas I like to visit are exactly the same way.

From my perspective, it is what it is. I can accept it and make adjustments at my end, or I can go somewhere I'll enjoy less and possibly give the places I could be enjoying more low stars on review sites in disgust. Only one of those options helps me

I've actually configured my current boat to run on 30A, only. I have to shut down an air conditioner for about 15 minutes in the morning to make hot water for a shower, and again in the evening if I use the stove/oven/microwave to cook dinner (but not the grill). But that works fine for me. The forward cabins don't get hot that quickly in the morning or too much even in the evening. Doing it this way just makes it easier for me to get into more places with less complication. It works for me -- but I am very sure wouldn't work for everyone. And if my boat were a 45' or 48' vs a 42', or it weren't a "Europa" style with lots of built-in shade, it wouldn't work, even for me.

I guess I just like to take a practical approach to these things. If something is bothering me and I can fix it, that is a good kind of problem to have. If someone else will fix it for me, that's a magical problem to have. I guess I haven't found the magic for this problem, yet. But, that's okay. It isn't one that needs magic. But, good for you if your marina is magical in this sense.

My home marina is getting rebuilt soon. I'm hoping they are going to address this when they do. They've promised electrical improvements, but I don't know if that means 240v vs 208v or just less or no browning out under load. They haven't said. Time will tell, I guess.

It certainly can't hurt to ask a marina to fix it. But, if all of their slips are getting 208v service, I'd guess the real question is who is paying for the dock-side transformer, because that is really the easiest fix for all involved.

When marinas have years-long wait lists, as most in my area do, they just don't have any incentive to pay for the transformer and its maintenance over time. I can imagine that, if they had empty slips and folks who wanted them were scarce, and someone said they'd take it, "but", that'd be a different situation. I just don't think that is the present situation most places. At least most places near me.

Maybe a marina would plan an upgrade like this because a lot of folks are asking and they want to be better. But, I don't think they'd fix it because one person asked, unless that person, by chance, was the straw that broke the camel's back. And, even then, I think it'd take months or years to make it actually happen.

I don't know if this is a new marina vs old marina thing. Or a regional thing. Or just a thing thing. It seems that people have different expectations of, and maybe different experiences with, their marinas. What to say? The situations may just be different beasts.
 
Sorry - have to make a correction here:

If you "centre tap" 3-phase 240V (that is, if you create the 4th wire - the "neutral") you will get 138V phase to neutral.

This is why 208V 4-wire is so popular for large residential type supplies (not single dwellings). You can get the advantages of 3-phase for some loads and also get 120V.

The marina dilemma is: "how to deliver 120V to the 15A and 30A outlets and to also deliver 240V to the 50A outlets". It might be better if they used the household type 240/120 single phase system, but that is not the practice.


Nope. I said center tap a single phase. Phase to phase = 240V. Half of that is 120V. Simple math with transformer windings.
 
Sorry - have to make a correction here:

If you "centre tap" 3-phase 240V (that is, if you create the 4th wire - the "neutral") you will get 138V phase to neutral.

This is why 208V 4-wire is so popular for large residential type supplies (not single dwellings). You can get the advantages of 3-phase for some loads and also get 120V.

The marina dilemma is: "how to deliver 120V to the 15A and 30A outlets and to also deliver 240V to the 50A outlets". It might be better if they used the household type 240/120 single phase system, but that is not the practice.

I agree that residential service is most commonly "Edison System": a center tap off of 240v (not 208v).

I think those of us familiar with this are familiar with this, even if I have fumbled some wording here or there. But, for the benefit of others who are less acquainted, I think pictures may be worth 1000 words. See attached:

* I think we all agree most residential is the top one.
* I think we all agree that those with voltage challenges resulting from the way their marina's power is delivered, as many or few of them as there might be, are getting power via the 2nd configuration.
* The 3rd picture is the likely not relevant to marinas and is just for completeness. It shows a "Big Industry" configuration, which can deliver 120v via step down transformers.
* The 4th picture is another way of delivering 120v power in industrial settings. It is derived from the picture above it, but center taps a 240v 2ndary to get 120v in a way similar to the way it is done for 240v/120v household power.

I'm guessing that some folks are suggesting that marinas should be served with the same system as residential or the 3-phase/4-wire delta shown, or perhaps with a 240v delta and step-down transformers for 120v service.

I don't remember the details, but I do remember that caution needs to be exercised when pulling 120v off of 3-phase because the harmonics can get weird. I think I remember that it specifically relates to triplen harmonics (odd multiples of 3rd harmonics) of non-linear loads adding up rather than getting distributed or summing to 0.

I truly don't know enough about that to even comment about it, only to know that it means that my present college-ish physics understanding of transformers isn't good enough to understand their behaviour in the real world in this type of application and anything past that that I ever happened to have learned, I've forgotten.

I guess what I know about it is that understanding such things is part of why the power EEs get paid the big bucks to make things work, and work with resilience and efficiency, and that I'd hate to propose that this or that could be done differently without hearing from them about why doing such may be less appealing than it seems to me.
 

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Nope. I said center tap a single phase. Phase to phase = 240V. Half of that is 120V. Simple math with transformer windings.

OK - now I understand - thanks. But, as you say, this is not a viable option.
 
A friend just read my prior post and tells me it was entirely unhelpful for the intended audience, including him, and that I need to explain three things or it's all just more useless noise taking up air time to most folks, so let me try to be more helpful:

1) What are the red things and why am I calling them phases?
2) What is a nonlinear load?
3) What is a harmonic and why is it bad.

This is serious thread drift. But, let me add this as a caption to my prior figures and then leave it to the power engineers, perhaps in a new thread. I just don't want anyone to feel like I was trying to be unhelpful or feel left behind if it is something they happen to care about (most probably won't...)

1) Most of us are familiar with the shape of a sine wave and know that AC is called AC because the current alternates up and down with this wave form and that in the US this happens at a frequency of 60x/second or 60Hz. So the wave form repeats itself ever 1/60th of a second. If we pick some starting point on the repeating waveform, phase is just a measure of how far the wave the wave is right now from that starting point vs how far it has to go to get back to that part of the shape again. If we take the same shape and start the wave at different times the phase difference is just how far they are apart w.r.t one wave being in the same position as another is now. Degrees are one way of measuring this distance when we are comparing waves of the same frequency.

-- https://matterofmath.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Phase-shift-sine-wave.jpg

With three phase power three 60Hz sine waves are generated, each 360 degrees/3 = 120 degrees apart. The red squiggles are
The secondary windings of transformers where each of these electrical waveforms enter the system. The primary windings are tied to the generator that produces them or voltages stepped up or stepped down from them by transformers, depending upon where one looks.

Because alternating current moves charge, it produces a changing magnetic field called Flux. This changing magnetic field can induce a current flow in a nearby wire. The voltage associated with that current is related to the ratio of the number of coils on the primary vs secondary windings. The secondary coil loads the primary coil generating an impedence to current flow there, so nothing is free. The load in theb2ndary is felt by the primary. If the voltage is stepped.up and higher on the 2ndary (more windings) the primary will experience a greater current flow so the work is the same (actually more with inefficiencies). Beyond this a core is used to shape the magnetism and this core isn't passive and can be impacted by the properties of the supply and load.

3 phase turns out to be more efficient for distribution that other numbers of phases with respect to the wire needed to carry the load, etc. Thats why it is used.

So, the red squiggles are the 2ndary windings of transformers, each providing a 60 Hz waveform 120 degrees apart.

2) Many of us may be familiar with Ohm's law, i.e. voltage is equal to current over resistence, i.e. i=v/r. Note that voltage is proportiomal to current, so the two are in phase with each other, i.e they move up and down together. This is true only for simple resistive loads, e.g. incandescent lights, old fashioned electric cook tops, resistive heaters.

Nonlinear loads, at least as I was using the term, are loads where Ohms law is not enough to model the situation because it doesn't account for time. The easier example of this is probably a capacitor. It charges up over time and then can discharge over time. When it is charging it is drawing a lot of current. When it is discharging it is supplying current and supporting voltage. In this way it tries to change the waveform it is being fed. The impact of this can be modeled as a phase shift. Inductive loads do the same thing, except they store energy magneticly vs electrostaticly. Another way if viewing these loads is that they are loads where the voltage and current curves aren't in sync.

It is important to understand that these active properties of components don't just impact the load and things downstream from them, they impact the supply, itself. It is all part of the same circuit. As a result, they can impact the way the supply performs and the electricity other devices see. Basically, all of these active components have an effect that has to be combined with the properties of to understand the behavior of the circuit.

Any single consumer device probably cant make much of a difference. But, add them all up and they sure can. What was once mostly an industrial challenge is now ubiquitous. Think of all the devices in your home with power supplies that use capacitors for filtering or efficiency, especially bigger ones like switching supplies on computers, as well as CFL lights, and hidden ones such as those for LED lighting and the computers embedded in all sorts of devices.

3) The difference between the ideal waveform that one wants to supply and what one actually ends up with is called noise. There are a lot of ways to describe or model it. But, it is really helpful to do that in a way that is easily modeled and analyzed mathematically or, at the least, in a way for which there are good, well understood mathematical tools.

As it turns out if we think of the noise in terms of the impact it has at different frequencies instead of at different times there are much better ways to analyze it. In particular, we can do this by looking at the noise in terms of its impact at multiples of the fundamental frequency, in this example 60Hz.

We call the fundamental frequency the 1st harmonic, (1x itself); double it, e.g. 120Hz, the 2nd harmonic; triple it the third harmonic, etc.

When it comes to these harmonics they can do strange things. Even harmonics tend to cancel out. Odd harmonics tend to add up. Triplen harmonics, the set of odd harmonics which I mentioned earlier, tend to be produced by 120v single phase loads. In particular, they can mess up the wave form making the use of the electricity less efficient for some devices and adding noise to the workings of others. They can also change the way the electricity flows through the cross section of wires requiring thicker wires, change the way the magnetic field forms and communicates energy at transformers, and change the flow through transformer networks, concentrating or canceling themselves.

Noise like this is very hard to control, except at the original source. It can't, for example, be filtered by capacitors. It's effects are just too complex. And, even at the source, beyond taking the big chunks out, it can get expensive and complex fast.

Through some true sorcery power EEs can design an utilize specialized transformers that phase shift waveforms so that these harmonics are combined inverted and significantly cancel themselves.out, e.g. zigzag transformers. And, their bag of spells and magic doesnt end there. Not nearly. But nothing is perfectly energy efficient or perfectly efficient at removing noise or perfectly reliable or free of cost. This sorcery can help, a lot, but this is all super complex, has costs, and is not perfect. The reason this matters somewhat to this conversation is that how one supplies 120v can have an impact on this noise and different transformer networks configurations respond to it differently. It isn't always as easy as finding a way to step it up or step it down when it is systemic vs a relatively small one-off.

This is my best understanding. I hope it is helpful to some folks who wanted to better understand the pictures. I know we've got some power folks here. If I goofed anything, or there is a better way to help people who want to learn about it, I certainly have more pride. Feel free to dig in and fix it. Thanks in advance!
 
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A friend just read my prior post and tells me it was entirely unhelpful for the intended audience, including him, and that I need to explain three things or it's all just more useless noise taking up air time to most folks, so let me try to be more helpful:

1) What are the red things and why am I calling them phases?
2) What is a nonlinear load?
3) What is a harmonic and why is it bad.

This is serious thread drift. But, let me add this as a caption to my prior figures and then leave it to the power engineers, perhaps in a new thread. I just don't want anyone to feel like I was trying to be unhelpful or feel left behind if it is something they happen to care about (most probably won't...)

1) Most of us are familiar with the shape of a sine wave and know that AC is called AC because the current alternates up and down with this wave form and that in the US this happens at a frequency of 60x/second or 60Hz. So the wave form repeats itself ever 1/60th of a second. If we pick some starting point on the repeating waveform, phase is just a measure of how far the wave the wave is right now from that starting point vs how far it has to go to get back to that part of the shape again. If we take the same shape and start the wave at different times the phase difference is just how far they are apart w.r.t one wave being in the same position as another is now. Degrees are one way of measuring this distance when we are comparing waves of the same frequency.

-- https://matterofmath.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Phase-shift-sine-wave.jpg

With three phase power three 60Hz sine waves are generated, each 360 degrees/3 = 120 degrees apart. The red squiggles are
The secondary windings of transformers where each of these electrical waveforms enter the system. The primary windings are tied to the generator that produces them or voltages stepped up or stepped down from them by transformers, depending upon where one looks.

Because alternating current moves charge, it produces a changing magnetic field called Flux. This changing magnetic field can induce a current flow in a nearby wire. The voltage associated with that current is related to the ratio of the number of coils on the primary vs secondary windings. The secondary coil loads the primary coil generating an impedence to current flow there, so nothing is free. The load in theb2ndary is felt by the primary. If the voltage is stepped.up and higher on the 2ndary (more windings) the primary will experience a greater current flow so the work is the same (actually more with inefficiencies). Beyond this a core is used to shape the magnetism and this core isn't passive and can be impacted by the properties of the supply and load.

3 phase turns out to be more efficient for distribution that other numbers of phases with respect to the wire needed to carry the load, etc. Thats why it is used.

So, the red squiggles are the 2ndary windings of transformers, each providing a 60 Hz waveform 120 degrees apart.

2) Many of us may be familiar with Ohm's law, i.e. voltage is equal to current over resistence, i.e. i=v/r. Note that voltage is proportiomal to current, so the two are in phase with each other, i.e they move up and down together. This is true only for simple resistive loads, e.g. incandescent lights, old fashioned electric cook tops, resistive heaters.

Nonlinear loads, at least as I was using the term, are loads where Ohms law is not enough to model the situation because it doesn't account for time. The easier example of this is probably a capacitor. It charges up over time and then can discharge over time. When it is charging it is drawing a lot of current. When it is discharging it is supplying current and supporting voltage. In this way it tries to change the waveform it is being fed. The impact of this can be modeled as a phase shift. Inductive loads do the same thing, except they store energy magneticly vs electrostaticly. Another way if viewing these loads is that they are loads where the voltage and current curves aren't in sync.

It is important to understand that these active properties of components don't just impact the load and things downstream from them, they impact the supply, itself. It is all part of the same circuit. As a result, they can impact the way the supply performs and the electricity other devices see. Basically, all of these active components have an effect that has to be combined with the properties of to understand the behavior of the circuit.

Any single consumer device probably cant make much of a difference. But, add them all up and they sure can. What was once mostly an industrial challenge is now ubiquitous. Think of all the devices in your home with power supplies that use capacitors for filtering or efficiency, especially bigger ones like switching supplies on computers, as well as CFL lights, and hidden ones such as those for LED lighting and the computers embedded in all sorts of devices.

3) The difference between the ideal waveform that one wants to supply and what one actually ends up with is called noise. There are a lot of ways to describe or model it. But, it is really helpful to do that in a way that is easily modeled and analyzed mathematically or, at the least, in a way for which there are good, well understood mathematical tools.

As it turns out if we think of the noise in terms of the impact it has at different frequencies instead of at different times there are much better ways to analyze it. In particular, we can do this by looking at the noise in terms of its impact at multiples of the fundamental frequency, in this example 60Hz.

We call the fundamental frequency the 1st harmonic, (1x itself); double it, e.g. 120Hz, the 2nd harmonic; triple it the third harmonic, etc.

When it comes to these harmonics they can do strange things. Even harmonics tend to cancel out. Odd harmonics tend to add up. Triplen harmonics, the set of odd harmonics which I mentioned earlier, tend to be produced by 120v single phase loads. In particular, they can mess up the wave form making the use of the electricity less efficient for some devices and adding noise to the workings of others. They can also change the way the electricity flows through the cross section of wires requiring thicker wires, change the way the magnetic field forms and communicates energy at transformers, and change the flow through transformer networks, concentrating or canceling themselves.

Noise like this is very hard to control, except at the original source. It can't, for example, be filtered by capacitors. It's effects are just too complex. And, even at the source, beyond taking the big chunks out, it can get expensive and complex fast.

Through some true sorcery power EEs can design an utilize specialized transformers that phase shift waveforms so that these harmonics are combined inverted and significantly cancel themselves.out, e.g. zigzag transformers. And, their bag of spells and magic doesnt end there. Not nearly. But nothing is perfectly energy efficient or perfectly efficient at removing noise or perfectly reliable or free of cost. This sorcery can help, a lot, but this is all super complex, has costs, and is not perfect. The reason this matters somewhat to this conversation is that how one supplies 120v can have an impact on this noise and different transformer networks configurations respond to it differently. It isn't always as easy as finding a way to step it up or step it down when it is systemic vs a relatively small one-off.

This is my best understanding. I hope it is helpful to some folks who wanted to better understand the pictures. I know we've got some power folks here. If I goofed anything, or there is a better way to help people who want to learn about it, I certainly have more pride. Feel free to dig in and fix it. Thanks in advance!

STB,
Thanks for the time you’ve put into the sketches and explanations. But think we should refocus on original posters’ issue. Actually Gary Armstrong has the solution in post #20. Wire the Charles isolation transformer to be able to select a boost when connected to 208 as opposed to 240v dock power.
 
STB,
Thanks for the time you’ve put into the sketches and explanations. But think we should refocus on original posters’ issue. Actually Gary Armstrong has the solution in post #20. Wire the Charles isolation transformer to be able to select a boost when connected to 208 as opposed to 240v dock power.


If that's possible, that's a huge win. I thought the poster said no adjustment.

If it isnt adjustable, I think a new transformer is needed to replace it or boost before it, right?
 
If you boost the voltage before the existing isolation transformer (or on the dock) you can use what is called an "autotransformer".

An autotransformer does not give you isolation (which you have already and is a fraction of the weight of a conventional two-winding transformer. Autotransformers make sense when you are looking to change the voltage by only a few percent.

Here is a link to one: https://beaverelectrical.com/products/EER15KH8C
 

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If that's possible, that's a huge win. I thought the poster said no adjustment.

If it isnt adjustable, I think a new transformer is needed to replace it or boost before it, right?

Think your post #42 is correct. Appears the Charles isolation transformer comes with a boost tap, maybe 15%. So would need to hard wire out to a selector switch that could then select either normal or boost depending on dock voltage either 240 or 208 respectively.
 
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