Opinions wanted.

[Marin]

Quality control, warranty, service, and all the rest......I guess I'm just tired of the "Made in China" label.......

Don't ride on a Boeing or Airbus plane then.

Quality control is generally better in Japan than in the US. The quality out of China is as good as the parent company makes it. Apple products are for the most part assembled in China. A lot of parts and assemblies on Boeing and Airbus planes are made in China. Both companies have entire planes made in China. Warranty is set by the selling company, not by the plant that makes the product. Likewise service is determined by the parent company and the individual dealer/distributors. The buyers of Honda, Toyota, Subaru, etc. are not known for complaining about poor service.

I don't think most boaters consider Nordhavns to have lesser quality, a lousy warranty, and poor service after the sale. They are manufactured in Xiamen, China. Grand Banks, another make with a repuation for quality and service after the sale are made in Singapore and Malaysia.

It's a global market and a global economy these days. The US is no longer the world's premier manufacturing country. While there are some products made in the US that are still superior---- if you're in the market for a diesel electric railroad locomotive you can't do any better than GE--- for the most part, a "buy American" policy eliminates a lot of the top products in a lot of categories, from computers to boats.

And even the "made in America" products-- particularly complex ones like cars, boats, and airplanes--- aren't really made in America anymore. There's more stuff on a Boeing plane that's not made in America than there is stuff that is.

So my philosophy is to buy the best I can afford regardless of where it's made. Because no matter where it's actually made, the money you spend on it is going to get distributed all over the planet, including here in the US. So why limit yourself?

 

[JAT]

I have my preferences....and as such I choose the spend that way.

I remember when it was a felony to even think about sending anything related to GPS and computers to Communist China...and now this nation has sold its soul...and wonders, yes, wonders why the economy is in the toilet.

I could care less about a "global economy".... I think its a pretty sure bet that the little worker bee or executive in that foreign country doesn't care one iota about the economy of the US.....all they care about is their own circumstances....nothing else, and to think otherwise is folly.

The idiots in this country came up with tons of excuses and finger pointing at this party and that...but none these idiots pointed out the simple fact, that if you send all of you manufacturing jobs out of the country....and you eliminate just enough jobs....you actually eliminated your consumer who used to buy your product....and then the dominoes start tipping over.

Global economy my ass.....

This country needs to get back to where it was....or it is going to die. And all the political snarfing and bs is for naught....just lipstick on a pig trying to make it look good...

 

[Marin]

If this country "goes back to the way it was" all that will remain to do is carve the epigraph in the tombstone. Wishing a country to back out of a global economy is wishing it dead. And believing there isn't a global economy now or that there shouldn't be is denying reality. It's why Ron Paul is doomed to perpetual failure.

Manufacturing jobs went overseas because US workers priced themselves out of the market. The huge irony here is that US workers want--- demand--- the lowest pieces possible on everything from toasters to computers. It's the reality behind Wal Mart's success. But then these same workers demand wages that make it impossible to produce the products and sell them for what they want to pay in this country.

The companies who move their manufacturing or assembly to less expensive labor markets are the smart ones. The employees who demand unsustainable and unprofitable wages and benefits are the dumb ones. As far as I'm concerned they deserve exactly what they get.

Nordhavn couldn't sell a single boat if they tried to manufacture them in this country. Neither could Grand Banks, Selene, etc. A few years ago Grand Banks actually explored the idea of building an "entry level" 32' cruiser in the US, Washington State actually, because of the then-existing boat manufacturing industry here with Nordic Tug, Bayliner, etc. The idea was to build the hulls here and the interior modules in Singapore/Malaysia (which is how they do the interiors for all their boats). Compared to the cost of shipping an entire boat, the cost of shipping the interior modules was much less. So the boat could be sold for less than if it was made in its entirety in Singapore/Malaysia and shipped over.

That was the theory. But the theory fell apart when they factored in the cost of labor in the US. Compared to the cost of labor in SE Asia-- labor they say is just as skilled as the equivalent workers in the US--- the whole idea no longer made economic sense and it was dropped. If as the global economy slowly recovers GB decides to go ahead with their 32' project, it will be built in SE Asia, China, or (they said) easten Europe.

The US is simply not competitive when it comes to manufacturing except in a handful of right-to-work states in the southeast. Where we build the 787 and BMW builds the X3 and X5 for the worldwide market.

 

[Art]

Marin

Months ago in OTDE (of the previous forum), you and I went to the ropes regarding Ron Paul, restablishing adherence to our U.S. Constitution’s rules, survival of America, a world economy, China manufacturing, cheep labor in other developing nations... etc... etc.

The main point I was trying to get across then has not changed... most current politicians’ words and intents are pieces of craaappp! I feel Ron Paul’s nationalistic/conservatism bent for the U.S. would work best during the next decade or more. Because - - > IMO, the world economy is going to topple and it will become a free-for-all internationally – in many ways. The country that best survives the ensuing economic, ecologic, social/religious wars will lead the world to its next civilized level. I believe global shtt is going to hit the fan in a BIG way and that right now America needs to look inward – not outward.

China, Germany, Japan, England, India, France, Brazil – and many others are not the world’s leader. The United States of America is! And, when this World-Rumble really gets going it is the USA who will again take leadership position to pull our world back together. There will be many allied nations our U.S. can count on to help society survive... but, as it has been before, it will be again - - > America leading the charge! It will soon become necessary for a leader to Step Up, and, Our U.S. Can Do It!

Many items you say are right on the money about production, manufacturing, wages, work quality, product costs, shipping, retail stores like Walmart...etc... but, only when you “Play It Again Sam” with the now past tense “Business as Usual” jargon. However, “Business as Usual” is going to get stopped dead in its tracks and a whole new economic, ecologic, social, and religions paradigm will need to globally manifest. I believe we are entering into the “Perfect Global Storm” to attain civilization’s next important development plateau; WWII was one. And, I believe in America – For the Long Haul! But, you already knew that!

BTW, we just spent a great weekend on our Tolly... Hope you had a good one on your GB!

Cheers! Art

PS: I believe this topic too much hijacks this "Options Wanted" thread... I ask that this discussion be moved to OTDE and ask the forum's "powers that be" to do so... just a suggestion!

 

[JAT]

Marin,

If what you say is true....then why aren't GB, Selene, and all the rest opening plants in SC, NC, FL...and all the others?

 

[Marin]

Marin,

If what you say is true....then why aren't GB, Selene, and all the rest opening plants in SC, NC, FL...and all the others?

Because labor costs in Asia are still much lower than in the SE US.

BMW opened the X5/X3 plant in SC because the labor costs are much lower than Germany. Also the US represents a significant market for those vehicles. The BMW plant in SC turns out 1,200 vehicles a DAY. Most of them go to the port of Charleston and are shipped out around the world. For example the SC plant makes all the right hand drive X5s and X3s for Japan, Australia, New Zealand, etc.

Auto manufacturing is almost entirely automated today. Relatively few people are required to operate an auto plant anymore. Nordhavns, Grand Banks, etc. are for the most part hand made. Much more labor intensive than manufacturing a vehicle. So it would be unprofitable to make boats like Nordhavn, GB, etc in the US because of the uncompetitive labor costs for this kind of manufacturing in this country.

Our business is the same way. Most of the 747, 767, 777, and 787 aircraft are made overseas. They are assembled in the US but most of the manufacturing is done overseas. We make most of our interior components in the US and except for the 787 we make the wings in the US. And GE engines are made for the most part in the US. But other than that pretty much everything else comes from overseas. Labor costs are not the only reason for this, but they are part of the formula. Even the computer software applications we use to design our planes (CATIA) and check the fit and accessibility of all the components (DELMIA) are from another country. Dassault in France, in this case.

So assembled in the USA, yes. Made in the USA, not much.

 

[FF]

The next "war" will probably not be with bombs , tho the use of a nuke at altitude to reduce the west to 1890 may be too much temptation for N K or Iran to resist.

Since companies and folks can vote with their feet , the next "war" will be a productivity war.

With the current US political situation , a war on business and success , we are doomed to become the biggest Greece in history.

FORWARD TO penury !!
At least its honest.

FF

 

[Tom.B]

Please stay on topic or take this to OTDE. Thanks.

 

[Kmarks]

Mann do I have to wait long for Mann parts!!!!!

I would look at cat power plant option for 3 reasons.
1. purchase price of the cats to manns should save you enough to cover the electronics
2. Not sure w. your series, but most manns require every 1000 hrs a pricy tuneup of $10,000.00 to not void the warranties.
3. Cat techs to Mann techs on East coast is about 3 to 1. Historically I have found cat parts are a lot faster to arrive to the dock then Mann parts.

Just my 3 thoughts!
Good luck w. her
Safe travels!
Ken

 

[FF]

purchase price of the cats to manns should save you enough to cover the electronics

Low purchase price to boat builderss was the usual Volvo sales game.

The cost of parts made up for any initial price advantage .

To compare engines , make up a long term parts list , injectors , head gasket , valves and valve springs, and inquire to the price.

And how many weeks/months to fill the order.

Same for trannies , ZF is almost insane in pricing Twin Disc is modest.

Caviat Emptor!!! If you will own it for a while.


FF

 

[FF]

SO??? What did you decide?

After many opinions , from my silent ship to Phils 24/7/265 noisemakers , with other folks concepts added what is the goal decision?

Have you decided on the basic theme in terms of living vs power demand ?



FF

 

[timb7734]

None have mentioned that Flemings are wet boats, better look at a Marlowe 78 E with the Cat mills.

 

[Phil Fill]

None have mentioned that Flemings are wet boats, better look at a Marlowe 78 E with the Cat mills.

What do you mean by WET BOATs?

 

[Marin]

A Grand Banks is a wet boat. There is very little flare in the bow so when the boat whacks a wave the water is thrown almost straight up and when it clears the bulwark the wind catches it and blows it onto the boat. In any kind of waves at all on a windy day, if we are quartering into them or even heading straight into them we have the wipers going all the time.

Tony Fleming managed the American Marine yard in Singapore for awhile in (I think) the mid-1970s. American Marine had built a line of boats called the Alaskan, some models of which were based on a pilothouse deFever design. They are very, very nice boats from a design standpoint. And like the GBs, they do not have a lot of flare in the bow. Unfortunately AM never switched the Alaskan from wood to fiberglass like they did the Grand Banks so the line went out of production when AM ceased all its wood construction operations and closed its original Kowloon (across from Hong Kong) yard.

When Fleming left AM to start his own company it's no surprise that he based his boat on that same pilothouse deFever design that had been used by AM for the Alaskan. As such, his boat also doesn't have a lot of flare to the bow. So like the GB, the Fleming can kick water up high in waves and the wind will blow it onto the boat.

Hence the expression, wet boat. It's not a new term. The US Navy had two kinds of PT boats during WWII, Elcos and Higgins. The Elco is considered to be the much more comfortable and user-friendly boat from the crew standpoint. One reason is that the Elco boat had quite a flare to the bow. The Higgins did not and it was often described by crewmen as a very "wet boat."

 

[timb7734]

Wow Marin, what a great and thorough reply! I am impressed.