Partially Submerged
- Thread starter Capt Mike
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
AusCan
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The posts here show why it may be worth pursuing. The majority of boat buyers wouldn't even consider it regardless of what work has been done to restore it. There is no reason it can not be totally restored after a partial submerging.
Like any boat deal, it depends on the condition and the price.
I have a friend who is half way through a world circumnavigation on a boat that was mostly submerged at dock 2 years ago. What was an average condition 20 year old boat, is now a boat that is completely rebuilt. So far it has performed faultlessly.
Like any boat deal, it depends on the condition and the price.
I have a friend who is half way through a world circumnavigation on a boat that was mostly submerged at dock 2 years ago. What was an average condition 20 year old boat, is now a boat that is completely rebuilt. So far it has performed faultlessly.
Benthic2
Guru
How many hours are on the engine since the sinking ? I'm wondering if the owner really used it, and how much.
I'd do some research on an estimated value of the boat prior to the sinking, and the cost of the repairs that you've been told were done. If he is implying that he did $50k worth of repairs to a $30k boat, I'd be very suspicious.
I'd want to be able to talk to whoever did the rewire, rebuild, and hull repair.
Do you know how long it was underwater ?
I'd do some research on an estimated value of the boat prior to the sinking, and the cost of the repairs that you've been told were done. If he is implying that he did $50k worth of repairs to a $30k boat, I'd be very suspicious.
I'd want to be able to talk to whoever did the rewire, rebuild, and hull repair.
Do you know how long it was underwater ?
OP
OP
Capt Mike
Veteran Member
The engine has a reported 50 hours since the rebuild in 2014. I am told by the broker that the owner put a lot more money into the boat than it was worth. That makes me wonder if I am getting the full story.
One thing that still really bothers me is why would the broker disclose that the boat was partially sunk? I'm not sure that many interested buyers including me would even find out if it was properly restored. If I don't know and therefore don't tell the insurance company, how would they know?
One thing that still really bothers me is why would the broker disclose that the boat was partially sunk? I'm not sure that many interested buyers including me would even find out if it was properly restored. If I don't know and therefore don't tell the insurance company, how would they know?
menzies
Guru
His commission on the sale of that boat isn't anywhere near the value of the risk to his career.
tiltrider1
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Took on water = water level was just short of intake manifold
Partially sunk = anchor light was still above water
Sunk but quickly recovered = we got here up before any barnacles started forming
Seriously, I’m not afraid of a partially sunk boat. However I would sure use that information to pay way less than comparable to an unsunk boat.
Partially sunk = anchor light was still above water
Sunk but quickly recovered = we got here up before any barnacles started forming
Seriously, I’m not afraid of a partially sunk boat. However I would sure use that information to pay way less than comparable to an unsunk boat.
BruceK
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If you don`t disclose it to the insurer your insurance may be voidable.
Investigate the boat the best you can,and have it surveyed.
The broker might be honest and truthful. Here a seller has to disclose if a car is a repaired economic total loss.
Investigate the boat the best you can,and have it surveyed.
The broker might be honest and truthful. Here a seller has to disclose if a car is a repaired economic total loss.
Wxx3
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That's the rub. This isn't a 20 year old boat, but a 40 year old boat.
So right there, the value is much less under ideal conditions.
One can take a chance on a $200,000 boat that's been sunk, everything replaced, it'll still sell for not more than 50%.
But at least there is an upside and the risk is mitigated in that you can have a 200k boat for half price.
But for a $50k boat, the numbers don't work, because it costs more than 50k to replace stuff. So even if someone put 100k into it, it's still not even a 50k boat, but a 25k boat.
There is no upside, but plenty of down, since it's probably not salable.
Most brokers make sellers sign a material damage disclosure. So if they are now aware of an issue they must inform prospective buyers or they could get in quite a bit of trouble.
OP
OP
Capt Mike
Veteran Member
Based on my research this week and help from some of the members here, I have come to realize that the boat is priced at the top end of the market value for that boat. Believing there is a lot more downside then up, I have decided to stay away and keep looking.
Have you talked #s with the seller. I have seen boats sell 50% less than what they were listed for. I would take list price with a grain of salt.
OP
OP
Capt Mike
Veteran Member
I have not discussed price with the broker but I think the risk is greater than the reward. Even if I purchased her at a reduced price, say 50% of the value, and even if it all worked out great and I didn't have to sink any money into her (no pun intended). Eventually when I want to sell, the next buyer would be in the same dilemma. What is a boat that took on salt water worth? And how long before problems start to be revealed? This is not the boat I really want, it fits my needs for now but in a couple of years we will want to buy our loop boat in the 40 to 45' range. So I think the verdict is to wait for the right boat to come along.
Thanks for the input.
Thanks for the input.
Mrwesson
Senior Member
This is what I would focus on but only if the disclosure of the partial sinking was out of courtesy and not that it had been salvaged or the insurance company got involved.
Plenty of older boats have liability only insurance so no claim would take place.
Unless getting insurance is an issue I would say that the new genset, upgrades and a fresh engine outweigh the negatives to bring it up to average/slightly below asking price.
I'd bet many old trawlers have had this happen in their decades of history only to be covered up. If the broker told you this because the owner just wanted you to know then i'd see that as a positive but salvage/total title i'd walk away.
STB
Guru
Hi all,
I would encourage anyone with questions about this type of thing to chat with an insurance agent instead of speculating -- I think speculating causes a lot of unnecessary heartache.
I asked exactly this question of both BoatUS and State Farm agents (and another insurer that I don't remember) with respect to exactly this type of boat and type of history.
When I asked BoatUS about it, they told me that histories like that didn't really change things for older boats, which all had histories and uncertainties. She said that they are basically all in the same bucket of needing a survey or they could be anything. Newer boats would be different and a history could trigger a survey that otherwise wouldn't be needed. Effectively she said that older boats all had histories, known or not, so it wasn't an issue.
Additionally, BoatUS told me that losses basically follow the owner, not the vessel. So, the owner who let the boat sink would see a big premium change for years -- even for a brand new replacement vessel. But the boat, once repaired, was not a specific concern.
State Farm told me basically the same thing about boats, but we didn't talk about owners. I forget the details of my third call, but it was more of the same.
There is no harm in asking an insurance agent -- they don't set your rates -- and will gladly help you. At least that is my experience.
In this case, if you call a few experienced marine insurers, I think you'll consistently get the same answer as I did and feel good about it. I think the reality is that all older boats have histories, known or unknown, and that is, to some extent, mitigated by a survey, and to some extent, priced in. But, that insurance companies aren't making decisions about what N-owners-ago might or might not have disclosed and has or has not been passed along since.
I would encourage anyone with questions about this type of thing to chat with an insurance agent instead of speculating -- I think speculating causes a lot of unnecessary heartache.
I asked exactly this question of both BoatUS and State Farm agents (and another insurer that I don't remember) with respect to exactly this type of boat and type of history.
When I asked BoatUS about it, they told me that histories like that didn't really change things for older boats, which all had histories and uncertainties. She said that they are basically all in the same bucket of needing a survey or they could be anything. Newer boats would be different and a history could trigger a survey that otherwise wouldn't be needed. Effectively she said that older boats all had histories, known or not, so it wasn't an issue.
Additionally, BoatUS told me that losses basically follow the owner, not the vessel. So, the owner who let the boat sink would see a big premium change for years -- even for a brand new replacement vessel. But the boat, once repaired, was not a specific concern.
State Farm told me basically the same thing about boats, but we didn't talk about owners. I forget the details of my third call, but it was more of the same.
There is no harm in asking an insurance agent -- they don't set your rates -- and will gladly help you. At least that is my experience.
In this case, if you call a few experienced marine insurers, I think you'll consistently get the same answer as I did and feel good about it. I think the reality is that all older boats have histories, known or unknown, and that is, to some extent, mitigated by a survey, and to some extent, priced in. But, that insurance companies aren't making decisions about what N-owners-ago might or might not have disclosed and has or has not been passed along since.
If the boat in question is an Island Gyspy, it was on a mooring next to me. It was pretty far up river sided by marsh. It broke it's mooring and pretty gently laid over in soft mud with the outgoing tide. It took on some water on the next tide.
After the rebuild and refit, the owners used it for at least two seasons.
After the rebuild and refit, the owners used it for at least two seasons.
Stowawayjoe
Member
Think about where that salt water went that cannot be cleaned, like between the engine cradle and the stringers. Does it have steel fuel tanks? They could corrode on the back side or bottom where you can't see. I walked away from a Defever 49RPH for just those reasons.
Me and Boo
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I enjoy the educated guesses, speculation and general spread of knowledge. Basically we don't know the condition of the boat. Or even what make and model. I ask is why? Sometimes the value of a boat is the manufacturer and what the boat is.
An engine rebuild, new genset (that is a huge plus), rewire, is that AC and DC, plus what must have been a total cleaning, says a lot. I would look for strange things growing in places, mold in lockers, or plumbing issues, does it need a new water heater or sink? What is she worth? Old, fine, some CHB are worth a lot. Insurance, there are now discussions about insurance companies raising rates so high that just going for liability is the only way to go. Some insurance companies require a clean survey which is not likely on an old boat (US Boat is one), so going with a liability only is how you end up with anyhoo.
I am recommissioning an old boat and going on price vs what it takes to bring her back to life. So far the costs are far below the market value. A trawler of unknown destruction, unknown make, unknown dimensions, unknown age, would not be worth it - until the unknowns were known.
An engine rebuild, new genset (that is a huge plus), rewire, is that AC and DC, plus what must have been a total cleaning, says a lot. I would look for strange things growing in places, mold in lockers, or plumbing issues, does it need a new water heater or sink? What is she worth? Old, fine, some CHB are worth a lot. Insurance, there are now discussions about insurance companies raising rates so high that just going for liability is the only way to go. Some insurance companies require a clean survey which is not likely on an old boat (US Boat is one), so going with a liability only is how you end up with anyhoo.
I am recommissioning an old boat and going on price vs what it takes to bring her back to life. So far the costs are far below the market value. A trawler of unknown destruction, unknown make, unknown dimensions, unknown age, would not be worth it - until the unknowns were known.
Juggerknot
Senior Member
Insurance coverage could prove difficult especially given her age and the previous sinking. If the po had the work done by a competent yard, ask for details and talk to the yard, 4 years isn't that far back and they may very well recall the rebuild.
If the work was performed consciously by professionals I would not be afraid of the boat but price commensurate certainly.
If the work was performed consciously by professionals I would not be afraid of the boat but price commensurate certainly.
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If boats could talk...
I have seen many insurance claims end up with a boat being better than before and better in most respects than its peers. Money spent repairing and rebuilding it that otherwise would not have been. You should worry more about an old hull with original equipment that has been groomed just well enough to get a date. You will not know what you need to until it is too late.
The boat you are looking at has had five years to present issues related to the partial submersion. In another five years no one will care about the event if it continues to be well maintained. Evaluating hulls based on hearsay is just wrong when you can go look and see for yourself...
I have seen many insurance claims end up with a boat being better than before and better in most respects than its peers. Money spent repairing and rebuilding it that otherwise would not have been. You should worry more about an old hull with original equipment that has been groomed just well enough to get a date. You will not know what you need to until it is too late.
The boat you are looking at has had five years to present issues related to the partial submersion. In another five years no one will care about the event if it continues to be well maintained. Evaluating hulls based on hearsay is just wrong when you can go look and see for yourself...
Hwhit44886
Member
My sailboat sank off its mooring, and I rebuilt it after the insurance company totaled it.
You know very quickly what your issues are, as the rust starts immediately, we are talking hours...
Everyone is correct, the internal wiring is the most important.
The engine is pretty sealed, you will have surface rust but I bet they repainted the block. I am sure all the wires on the engine are also new..
So if they ran it for a couple years and are now selling, I wouldn't hesitate.
Get a thorough survey on it, which will also make all the insurance companies happy, and will show if there is any rot or other damage.
By now, if there was rot it would be showing, and there would probably be mold.
I ran my boat for over 10 years after, not an issue, before I sold it.
You know very quickly what your issues are, as the rust starts immediately, we are talking hours...
Everyone is correct, the internal wiring is the most important.
The engine is pretty sealed, you will have surface rust but I bet they repainted the block. I am sure all the wires on the engine are also new..
So if they ran it for a couple years and are now selling, I wouldn't hesitate.
Get a thorough survey on it, which will also make all the insurance companies happy, and will show if there is any rot or other damage.
By now, if there was rot it would be showing, and there would probably be mold.
I ran my boat for over 10 years after, not an issue, before I sold it.
That was our case. In 1997 while hauling out, the rear strap broke on the travel lift. Four months and $66k worth of insurance money we were back in the water and the boat was in the best condition of the other 50 that were built. Any builder/designer deficiencies were upgraded. New fuel tanks, appliances, joinery upgraded, etc... When it came time to sell the boat, the documentation and pictures sold it. Rob Eberly, in New Bern did the survey for the buyers.
This is not meant to be a rational post. Don't even try to reason it out.
I don't feel like I could trust a boat after it tried to drown itself. If it will drown itself, it might try to drown you too.
If someone were to blame, I could cut the boat some slack. I could put the blame on a hurricane and cut the boat some slack. A boat that tries to drown itself? I don't trust self destructive people either.
I don't feel like I could trust a boat after it tried to drown itself. If it will drown itself, it might try to drown you too.
If someone were to blame, I could cut the boat some slack. I could put the blame on a hurricane and cut the boat some slack. A boat that tries to drown itself? I don't trust self destructive people either.
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LOL! My boat and I have a deal....
I won't ignore her and she won't abandon me.
So far, we've done well with this arrangement.
I won't ignore her and she won't abandon me.
So far, we've done well with this arrangement.
