Pascoe Books?

[angus99]

Anybody familiar with "Mid-Size Power Boats"? Pricey as hell, but worth t?

I'm looking for resources that I can use to build a pre-survey checklist and generally get better educated. When we start looking seriously for our first trawler next year, I'd rather use my time to weed out DOA boats before hiring a pro.

I have this link by a surveyor, which I think will be useful: Marine Survey 101, how to do your own marine survey

Just looking for additional resources. Thanks.

 

[Capt Kangeroo]

Aside from Pascoe I don't know any good books on the subject but this forum is a formidable resource with a knowledge base far exceeding that of any individual surveyor or writer. If it were me looking to pull together a point by point list to weed out the junk pre-survey, I would make my own, then post it here for critique and/or additions by your fellow forum members. With nearly every make and model ever built represented here, there is a vast pool of "first-hand experience" based knowledge. With some editing to reduce the list to the key points, it would be a pretty powerful document. I'm certain it would also be of keen interest to new boaters looking to make their first purchase.

 

[Steve]

In case you haven't seen his website this is it Yacht Survey Online: David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor there is lots of information there.

 

[RickB]

In case you haven't seen his website this is it Yacht Survey Online: David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor there is lots of information there.

More like lots of mis-information. With regard to his engine articles, the man is clueless. Some of the stuff he publishes would be funny if it were not presented as factual.

The guy is the poster boy for all the reasons to be very very skeptical of anything a toy-boat surveyor tells you.

 

[psneeld]

While I would love to have a website as prolific as Pascoe's but from RickB instead....

Pascoe is a "source" for info but surely not the "final authority" worth reading...

I have posted many times that what is printed on the internet is a wealth of info...more than likely 90% mostly opinion or trash...but has some thread to the truth...or at least it gives you the incentive to find a counterpoint.

If you take info...distill it wth what you know...investigate further both internet and real people you trust....you might be on the right path.

Based on what I have read and taken from the internet...there's not too many books out there I would bother to buy these days. Learn how to or find someone that is good at searching the internet...and find some "real" people in your neck of the woods that know their "profession" inside and out and aren't afraid to tell you "I don't know but I'll find out for you"...and even then acid test their reply.

Plus remember there's the right way to do it, the way if your life depended on it, then the coatal cruise requirement, and the afternoon sail requirement and the dockominium requirement for boating and it's associated systems.

ABYC, mag writers and many internet posters usually recommend the "right way" or the sailing to Europe in hurricane conditions requirements...but for most of us...somewhere's between the coastal cruising and afternoon sail requirements will keep us afloat and safe if the skipper is up to it.

This is from a commercial capt that responds to wll over 200 assistance towing/salvage calls a year and cruises solidly for 2-3000 miles and 4 months a year between Jersey and Florida. I have no where the technical background of some...but the day to day getting underway with bailing wire holding my world together isn't exactly rocket science either.

 

[ksanders]

More like lots of mis-information. With regard to his engine articles, the man is clueless. Some of the stuff he publishes would be funny if it were not presented as factual.

The guy is the poster boy for all the reasons to be very very skeptical of anything a toy-boat surveyor tells you.

Rick

Could you quantify the mis information Pascoe presents, with references?

I have read Pascoes books and would love to be better educated. I'm always looking to learn and you are a wealth of information.

Thanks

 

[Marlinmike]

Have not been to Pascoe's survey site in ten years, but at the time he had very specific things he liked and everything else was no good, from my understanding he has been out of the biz for a long time, I'd image selling books as a side line. Like others have said, you could gleam some info from him, but I've seen some stuff written that was plain miss information.

 

[ksanders]

Have not been to Pascoe's survey site in ten years, but at the time he had very specific things he liked and everything else was no good, from my understanding he has been out of the biz for a long time, I'd image selling books as a side line. Like others have said, you could gleam some info from him, but I've seen some stuff written that was plain miss information.

OK, I'll repeat my request from the post above.

If you have specific things that you can point out that Pascoe was in error, please share them with everybody.

Its not fair to Pascoe (and I have no relation to him, dont know him, never met him) to make a claim about misinformation without backing that claim up with specifics.

Please do not take this as argumentative, it is not. If someone went to a forum and started posting that you were incorrect professionally, wouldnt you want them to quantify that allegation.

 

[Edelweiss]

I've followed some of Pascoe's work and read many of his reports. I found a lot of information, which for me personally, was informative.
That said, he is in many ways a victim of his own success. No one person can be an authority on all things boating. It's just way to complicated a topic and there are so many variables. Like everything else that's written, verify what’s fact and what’s personal opinion and take the opinions with a grain of salt.

I learned my lesson with surveyors. Upon recommendation of an acquaintance I hired a surveyor who it turned out, had very little personal experience with power boats other than what someone told him or he had read in a book. I was a little concerned when he arrived and he was surprised it was a powerboat and not a California sailboat. About 30 minutes into the survey, I realized this wasn't going well. I asked him about his training and experience specific to power boats. He became indignant and visibly angry. Stating he was "offended by me questioning his credentials." He then offered to end the survey and I accepted.
Like many other things in life, surveys are a fact of life, but choose your surveyor carefully. The blanket statement, "I've been a surveyor for 30 years." is not a qualification. Don't be afraid to verify their knowledge and experience with your type of boat before you hire them.

 

[sunchaser]

Its not fair to Pascoe (and I have no relation to him, dont know him, never met him) to make a claim about misinformation without backing that claim up with specifics.

It is a FL thing shared by others, best not to have reasons for dislike in print.

Angus -- A few questions and comments:

• Where are you located and where will your boat search boundaries be?
• Each vessel even though of the same brand can be very different based equipment and prior owner care, maintenance and abuse.
• Do you have a brand, year and budget you are pointing to yet?
• Are you looking for a fixer upper or already in pristine condition?
• Be careful on internet advice including mine.

 

[RickB]

Rick

Could you quantify the mis information Pascoe presents, with references?

I have read Pascoes books and would love to be better educated. I'm always looking to learn and you are a wealth of information.

Thanks

Oh dear, where to stop ...

"Because the turbo gets hot, it also heats up the air on the intake side ..."

Air gets hot because it is compressed.

"The turbo will increase the air flow proportional to engine speed."

Turbochargers increase output proportional to engine load, not speed.

"A diesel has no spark plugs. The fuel is ignited by compressing it until it explodes under extreme pressure ..."

Fuel is ignited by the heat from the compressed charge air. It does not "explode." If diesel fuel exploded because it was compressed, we would all have chunks of injector pumps all over the engine room.

"You can probably appreciate that if the cylinder is not cooled down before the next compression cycle, the temperature inside the cylinder is going to be rather hot. Thus, when the piston comes up and starts compressing the atomized fuel, it is going to exploded SOONER because the cylinder air temperature is higher. It's a matter of timing. This is bad news because the detonation is going to occur a few nanoseconds before the piston reaches top dead center. This throws the engine timing off and can result in acute loss of power and other serious problems. Like connecting rods through the block."

Atomized fuel is not compressed, it doesn't explode and as far as "timing" is concerned, the less delay in combustion after start of injection the better. The man simply has no idea of how a diesel engine works.

"The bottom line is that the 6V92 and the two cycle engines are substantially more efficient engines ..."

Yeah ... I almost hate to dignify that one with a response.

"Even though the turbo creates extra drag itself, it also allows each cylinder to get a large shot of fuel."

I would love to know how an exhaust driven turbocharger "creates extra drag" on an engine. It converts the work available in what would otherwise be lost as waste heat into increased mass flow of charge air.

"Horse power and torque are two different measures of power. Torque is a measure of the kinetic energy that builds up in a rotating engine."

Torque is a moment of force. It is not power, it is not a measure of power. An electric motor or a reciprocating steam engine for example will produce their highest torque at zero rpm and produce zero power.

"Torque is not a constant, but varies over the power curve, as shown in the graphs for a diesel engine below."

The graphs he provides are engine and propeller power curves and fuel consumption curves. They are not torque curves. He seems not to understand the difference ...

I could go on and on but it really isn't worth the bandwidth or my time.

 

[RickB]

Its not fair to Pascoe ... to make a claim about misinformation without backing that claim up with specifics.

Pascoe's own writings provide the best argument anyone can make about his lack of subject matter expertise in power and propulsion.

And it is fair to hold him to a reasonable standard of accuracy. Years ago when I first read some of the stuff he published I wrote to him with corrections and citations on where to verify my statements. To this date he has not corrected his outlandish errors. He is fair game as far as I am concerned, his writings in this area are so far wrong as to pull into question everything he has published.

Boater beware is my opinion on that particular purveyor of the surveyor's trade.

 

[Marlinmike]

OK, I'll repeat my request from the post above.

If you have specific things that you can point out that Pascoe was in error, please share them with everybody.

Its not fair to Pascoe (and I have no relation to him, dont know him, never met him) to make a claim about misinformation without backing that claim up with specifics.

Please do not take this as argumentative, it is not. If someone went to a forum and started posting that you were incorrect professionally, wouldnt you want them to quantify that allegation.

As I stated it has been ten years, so I'm not going back to investigate all of his opinions, from what I originally read yes he indeed has miss information, now I'm not calling him out, I said miss information, some of you need to realize this is an open forum with open opinions, that's all, relax!

 

[pilothouse king]

Rick

Could you quantify the mis information Pascoe presents, with references?

I have read Pascoes books and would love to be better educated. I'm always looking to learn and you are a wealth of information.

Thanks

Kevin,
I sent you a PM. Yeah, I'm back here messing around until BOC is back up! :>)

 

[ksanders]

Oh dear, where to stop ...

"Because the turbo gets hot, it also heats up the air on the intake side ..."

Air gets hot because it is compressed.

"The turbo will increase the air flow proportional to engine speed."

Turbochargers increase output proportional to engine load, not speed.

"A diesel has no spark plugs. The fuel is ignited by compressing it until it explodes under extreme pressure ..."

Fuel is ignited by the heat from the compressed charge air. It does not "explode." If diesel fuelexploded because it was compressed, we would all have chunks of injector pumps all over the engine room.

"You can probably appreciate that if the cylinder is not cooled down before the next compression cycle, the temperature inside the cylinder is going to be rather hot. Thus, when the piston comes up and starts compressing the atomized fuel, it is going to exploded SOONER because the cylinder air temperature is higher. It's a matter of timing. This is bad news because the detonation is going to occur a few nanoseconds before the piston reaches top dead center. This throws the engine timing off and can result in acute loss of power and other serious problems. Like connecting rods through the block."

Atomized fuel is not compressed, it doesn't explode and as far as "timing" is concerned, the less delay in combustion after start of injection the better. The man simply has no idea of how a diesel engine works.

"The bottom line is that the 6V92 and the two cycle engines are substantially more efficient engines ..."

Yeah ... I almost hate to dignify that one with a response.

"Even though the turbo creates extra drag itself, it also allows each cylinder to get a large shot of fuel."

I would love to know how an exhaust driven turbocharger "creates extra drag" on an engine. It converts the work available in what would otherwise be lost as waste heat into increased mass flow of charge air.

"Horse power and torque are two different measures of power. Torque is a measure of the kinetic energy that builds up in a rotating engine."

Torque is a moment of force. It is not power, it is not a measure of power. An electric motor or a reciprocating steam engine for example will produce their highest torque at zero rpm and produce zero power.

"Torque is not a constant, but varies over the power curve, as shown in the graphs for a diesel engine below."

The graphs he provides are engine and propeller power curves and fuel consumption curves. They are not torque curves. He seems not to understand the difference ...

I could go on and on but it really isn't worth the bandwidth or my time.

Rick, That was a good response.

Thanks for posting!

 

[Codger2]

Rick, That was a good response.

Thanks for posting!

===================>

 

[RickB]

You really want to get a laugh, look at this and wish that Marin were still here to provide some industry "color" ...

Boats, Yachts - Core & Structural Issues: Parallel Universe - Composite Troubles in Aircraft by David Pascoe

The explanation about the "gunk" is hilarious.

"Now look at the gunk or sludge appearing around the inside rivet heads in the plates toward the top, denoted by red arrows. Hard to be sure but it sure looks like a liquid was seeping out around the rivet heads for a long time."

I wonder what Pascoe thinks about installing the "gunk" at the factory?

Think he has ever heard of "faying"?

 

[Edelweiss]

I have to give Pascoe this though, his open criticism of hull lamination that included a non-structural cores was pretty brave. He called many of these boat manufactures out by name with documented examples of structure failure in their decks and hulls.


Unfortunately, his love of several of the East coast boat manufactures was all too obvious for me and over shadowed his credibility.

 

[angus99]

Angus -- A few questions and comments:

• Where are you located and where will your boat search boundaries be?
  TN and PA; search area will be east of the Rockies
• Each vessel even though of the same brand can be very different based equipment and prior owner care, maintenance and abuse.
  Right on. Although certain designs really appeal to me, I don't want to just "buy a brand"
• Do you have a brand, year and budget you are pointing to yet?
  I like some of the Defever models we've seen as well as Krogen 42s. Probably looking at mid to late 80s, but vintage and budget will depend on condition.
• Are you looking for a fixer upper or already in pristine condition?
  In truth, probably neither. More like a really well maintained boat that can be brought up to near-pristine. We like projects, have restored and built houses and enjoy working on boats . . . just not looking for large projects like engine or tank replacements.
• Be careful on internet advice including mine.
  

 

[psneeld]

• Where are you located and where will your boat search boundaries be?
  TN and PA; search area will be east of the Rockies
• Each vessel even though of the same brand can be very different based equipment and prior owner care, maintenance and abuse.
  Right on. Although certain designs really appeal to me, I don't want to just "buy a brand"
• Do you have a brand, year and budget you are pointing to yet?
  I like some of the Defever models we've seen as well as Krogen 42s. Probably looking at mid to late 80s, but vintage and budget will depend on condition.
• Are you looking for a fixer upper or already in pristine condition?
  In truth, probably neither. More like a really well maintained boat that can be brought up to near-pristine. We like projects, have restored and built houses and enjoy working on boats . . . just not looking for large projects like engine or tank replacements.
• Be careful on internet advice including mine.
  

so far the fuel tanks replacement have been one of the easier and quicker jobs o my old tub....

 

[FF]

The best thing about Pascoe is he can help the dreamer that thinks all boats are wonderful, and cant wait to purchase one , that NOT all boats are as advertised. Some are real crap!

The reality of the work/expen$e required to drag a 30 -40 entry level boat to a cruiser (if ever) is worth the price.

The proper difference between controlled ignition and :an explosion: 2000 times a min is of little interest to the newby.

For any wannabee Pascoe is worth the bucks!! Where else is the info aviliable?

 

[RickB]

Where else is the info aviliable?

Sites like this one where people describe their own experiences with failed, broken, bent, vibrating, non-starting, soft, leaking, overheating, rattling, and peeling bits and pieces.

At least here there is a chance (often slim) of a reasonable discussion when and where opinion butts up against fact.

Pascoe does not invite comment or criticism. He does not respond to corrections and he does not remove patently false statements upon which his followers are expected to act.

At least on sites like this one, the outrageous is challenged so that an opposing view is presented. That is about all anyone can do for reader who expects to obtain working knowledge from a hobbyist group.

The proper difference between controlled ignition and :an explosion: 2000 times a min is of little interest to the newby.

There ya go ... that is a good example. It should be of great interest as the difference, particularly in the way Pascoe presented it, is how and why a diesel operates smoothly or not, produces smoke, and is the foundation on which the fuel polishing industry has been built. Fuel quality (which has become a euphemism for poor combustion characteristics caused by a number of issues) determines the rate of combustion, the power developed and what comes out the exhaust. That is why it should be of interest.

Those who say it is of little interest or who take little interest in the difference between an explosion and the combustion event shouldn't try to give advice on engine operation.

 

[bglad]

PM me and I will send you a checklist you can condense into a quick list for doing your own evaluations

 

[ksanders]

Pascoe's own writings provide the best argument anyone can make about his lack of subject matter expertise in power and propulsion.

And it is fair to hold him to a reasonable standard of accuracy. Years ago when I first read some of the stuff he published I wrote to him with corrections and citations on where to verify my statements. To this date he has not corrected his outlandish errors. He is fair game as far as I am concerned, his writings in this area are so far wrong as to pull into question everything he has published.

Boater beware is my opinion on that particular purveyor of the surveyor's trade.

Rick, that is correct.

I asked you for specific instances, and you provided them. You did a great job of that, thanks very much.

I cannot really defend what he wrote, but I can say that it appears that he attempted to "dumb down" the technical nature of what he was writing about to make it understandable to his readers level of technical expertise.

I have read two of his books, cover to cover, and am glad to have done so. As a boater, whose field of expertise is not boating, I found his books very helpful, in the same way that people read the "for dummies" series of books about something they are interested in.

Rick, it is clear that you have subject matter expertise in some areas related to recreational boating. You might try sometime to write a book about a specific area of your expertise. Thats pretty easy, right? Now try to write the same book so that the average boater will be able to understand it. Thats a little more difficult. Actually its a lot more difficult.

As I indicated before, I do not know Pascoe. I do not necessarially agree with everything he wrote. But, I have been in his shoes, thousands of times over a 30 year career. I am tasked with describing, in writing, an event, or an issue, or a system in my field of expertise to managers who do not share that technical expertise. It is extremely difficult to write something 100% technically accurate, yet understandable to a non technical target audience.

 

[RickB]

You might try sometime to write a book about a specific area of your expertise. Thats pretty easy, right? Now try to write the same book so that the average boater will be able to understand it. Thats a little more difficult. Actually its a lot more difficult.

It is extremely difficult to write something 100% technically accurate, yet understandable to a non technical target audience.

No it's not. I do it here quite frequently. I also have around 6 technical articles per year published in the megayacht press which provide information for general consumption by worldwide readers of all levels of technical literacy.

Trying is the operative word ... Pascoe's work does not indicate any attempt at clarity or accuracy. It is all to often pure opinion masquerading as factual information, biased and uneducated opinion at that.

 

[ksanders]

Trying is the operative word ... Pascoe's work does not indicate any attempt at clarity or accuracy. It is all to often pure opinion masquerading as factual information, biased and uneducated opinion at that.

Rick, when you presented real issues that you felt that Pascoe was in error, I thanked you for that effort. Again, you did a good job of that.

You are now professionally attacking Pascoe, instead of pointing out a few errors on his part. Thats a big leap, and one that hopefully you carefully considered before making it.

Pascoe, is/was a professional accredited surveyor for what it appears to be a very long career. You must be more qualified than him, in order to make that kind of accusation.

So Rick

Regarding your direct hands on professional experience on power boats in the <60 foot class, (toy boats to use your words), and the the powerplants found in this size boat.

• Are you a Accredited marine surveyor?
• How many marine surveys have you personally completed, on the specific brands, and sizes of boats that Pascoe mentions in his books?
• Can you provide links to any articles you have personally written about <60' power boats, or their propulsion systems?
• Do you hold factory certifications on powerplants of the brand and size found in <60' boats?
• How many forensic surveys have you personally completed to determine the root cause of an engine failure in the powerplants on <60' boats? (Pascoe indicates that he has completed many of these, and documents quite a few of them in his books)

Rick, you made the leap, from pointing out a few errors to professionally attacking Pascoe. Again, I am not defending Pascoe. What I am doing is asking you to show that you have the credentials to support the posts you made regarding his professional work.

 

[Tom.B]

 

[OFB]

That's kinda the rub. I mean what are Pascoe's credentials other than being a professional ? published surveyor for 40 years. That has the "power" to place a "value" on personal assets based on his "opinion".

Just a point !

 

[RickB]

Nice try but baiting me ain't gonna make Pascoe's writings on diesels any less absurd. Attempting to lure me into some internet pissing match isn't going to show Pascoe as a reliable source of technical information.

Anyone can self-publish a book without an editor or fact checker to verify the claims or statements presented in the text. Defend Pascoe's statements if you wish but trying to pull me into a barfight isn't going to get you anywhere.

You are more than welcome to find errors in my rebuttal to Pascoe's tripe if you like. Use all the resources at your disposal to find some ammunition, it will teach you a lot and keep you occupied in a more productive diversion. In the meantime, I don't need your approval to point out nonsense. Unless you are paying for my services, I don't need to provide you with any credential.

Are you a Accredited marine surveyor?

No, and I am not a self-publisher either.

 

[ksanders]

Nice try but baiting me ain't gonna make Pascoe's writings on diesels any less absurd. Attempting to lure me into some internet pissing match isn't going to show Pascoe as a reliable source of technical information.

Anyone can self-publish a book without an editor or fact checker to verify the claims or statements presented in the text. Defend Pascoe's statements if you wish but trying to pull me into a barfight isn't going to get you anywhere.

You are more than welcome to find errors in my rebuttal to Pascoe's tripe if you like. Use all the resources at your disposal to find some ammunition, it will teach you a lot and keep you occupied in a more productive diversion. In the meantime, I don't need your approval to point out nonsense. Unless you are paying for my services, I don't need to provide you with any credential.



No, and I am not a self-publisher either.

Rick

If I were to go on the attack professionally about someone else in the electrical/electronics industry, and if someone were to ask for my credentials to back up those accusations I would be happy to supply them. Thats because I am actually a verifiable expert in my field, with direct hands on expertise, and a "boatload" of industry certifications to quantify that expertise. Experts have that kind of stuff.

Pascoe has claimed to be a surveyor, and claims in his books to be an expert in his field. He indicates that he has performed thousands of surveys on boats and powerplants, and holds generally accepted certifications that one would expect from a surveyor. I may not agree with everything he writes, but he has passed my test as being an expert in his field.

You, professionally attacked him, and when I asked you to show that you were more qualified than him, by demonstrating your expertise in the field, you provided nothing.

So, I will repeat my previous request.

Do you have professional, hands on experience, and certifications showing that you are an expert in the field of mid size power boats (Toy boats), or their propulsion systems?

If you do, please post it here. If you do not, just say it, and not beat around the bush. If you are the expert, please step up to the plate and prove it. And please, make your expertise on actual boats like the ones we all own here on TF, and the ones Pascoe writes about. Megayachts, and big commercial ships do not count, any more than a 747 mechanic is qualified to fix a Cessna.