Question for people with "fast trawlers"

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What percent of the time are you at Hull speed?

  • 80%+

    Votes: 22 40.0%
  • 70%

    Votes: 6 10.9%
  • 60%

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • 50%

    Votes: 4 7.3%
  • 40%

    Votes: 3 5.5%
  • 30% and under

    Votes: 18 32.7%

  • Total voters
    55
My engines idle at about 800 which equates to about 6 knots. I am constantly shifting in and out of gear in fairways. At first it was a PITA, but I'm used to it now. This is fairly typical for this type of boat and gear/prop combination. Idle these engines any lower and they quickly get rough. Rudders are generous and steering is exceptional at lower speeds.
 
Mark

With all the negatives of pods low speed control is not one of them. We can hold in one place (within 20 - 30 feet) with a push of a button.
 
For a thread that started a day or so back, the response numbers are outstanding!

Some where in the forum a submitter quoted his wife regarding speed. I want to recall it being : "On a swift boat you have to go fast to arrive there, on a slow boat, you are already there."
That would describe our voyaging. Being on the boat moving, entertaining or being entertained while cruising at our modest speed is for us, what it is all about.

I will admit after the number of years we have had this current boat, preaching that 1450 RPM gave us near hull speed (Under ideal conditions, wind, tide and such) we have recently moved the throttle up to 1650 and have obtained an established 7 to 7.3 Knot average over the 6.4-6.8 prior cruise speed.
Another poster used the term, "We cruise at cocktail speed-6 to 7 knots"

Al-Ketchikan
 
One knot below hull speed works for me which provides about 100 percent efficiency (less than half the fuel cost per mile).



I have seen reference to "1 kt below hull speed" a number of times. My question is, how arbitrary is that? It would seem to me that a % figure below hull speed would be a better target.
 
We almost never travel at hull speed. Boat is capable of 25 knots. Typically we are running between 10 - 14 knots. It's pretty comfortable and quiet at this speed.
 
B&B - Juliet Marine is so screwed in that deal. Their chief offense is their name isn't Boeing or Ingalls.

With a planing hull, rudder surface is relatively small by intent. At <5 k, it's neutral rudders and on the sticks. Kinda like driving a D-6. She's a twin screw, of course.
 
I Wish the pole has a choice of almost NEVER.

WE find 7K (the sq rt of the 49ft LWL) is a nice efficient cruise speed

Going at theoretical "hull speed" 1/3 faster costs about 2x the fuel .

That extra 2K for "hull speed" is almost never worth the cost, noise or wake.
 
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I Wish the pole has a choice of almost NEVER.

WE find 7K (the sq rt of the 49ft LWL) is a nice efficient cruise speed

Going at theoretical "hull speed" 1/3 faster costs about 2x the fuel .

That extra 2K for "hull speed" is almost never worth the cost, noise or wake.


Agreed - if we are going to cruise slowly then aim for a real efficient speed, for us that is about 6.5 knots, Fuel use doubles quickly after that with very small returns, When time, tide, or currents dictate a faster speed we get up to a fast cruising speed but try never to use speeds in between.
 
I have seen reference to "1 kt below hull speed" a number of times. My question is, how arbitrary is that? It would seem to me that a % figure below hull speed would be a better target.


I think I remember Beebe and others suggesting 1.00*SQRT(LWL) -- instead of 1.34*....

-Chris
 
I have seen reference to "1 kt below hull speed" a number of times. My question is, how arbitrary is that? It would seem to me that a % figure below hull speed would be a better target.

Dave,
I think you are absolutely right. Boats are very different but one knot below is a convenient, handy and (for the boats about Mark's size (or a bit larger) it works well for dock talk or even a rule of thumb.

It fits only FD boats near perfectly but almost any boat can use it effectively. 40-50' boats need only think to raise the "one knot" to about 1 1/2 knots. However most SD boats w a straight and level run aft and planing boats may not find "one knot below" all that useful. Generally I'd say hull speed for them.

But Dave you're right it's very arbitrary. Don't think I've heard it outide TF. Somebody here brobably started it. Mark very likely may have but I travel 99% at one knot below and probably have talked about it.
 
I think I remember Beebe and others suggesting 1.00*SQRT(LWL) -- instead of 1.34*....



-Chris



Thanks for all the replies to my simple question.

As Eric pointed out in an earlier post, checking speed against rpm is a challenge in our waters as the water is always moving. Since I don't have an speed through the water instrument, I only know my SOG. Even so, I do try to get an idea of what speed vs rpm is. I'll start again with the new engine.

Anyway, SQRT of my LWL is about 6.2 knots. 1.34*SQRT of LWL is about 8.25 knots. I normally run about 7, sometimes up to 8. 7 knots seems to be a sweet spot for my boat.
 
Thanks for all the replies to my simple question.

As Eric pointed out in an earlier post, checking speed against rpm is a challenge in our waters as the water is always moving. Since I don't have an speed through the water instrument, I only know my SOG. Even so, I do try to get an idea of what speed vs rpm is. I'll start again with the new engine.

Anyway, SQRT of my LWL is about 6.2 knots. 1.34*SQRT of LWL is about 8.25 knots. I normally run about 7, sometimes up to 8. 7 knots seems to be a sweet spot for my boat.

Mine comes out to about 8.5 which corresponds pretty much to the speed mine gets to easily (about 1800 rpm) without having to start running up the rpm's (2500 rpm to go 1.5 knots faster), around 12 knots at 3000 rpm and then better as it actually gets up on plane somewhat for 15 knots at 3350 WOT.

I really like trolling along at about 7.5 knots at around 1500 rpm. That seems to be the super fuel economy and quietest speed.

But, it never really planes out like my center console does. It's still pushing a pile of water and puts out a wake you could surf off of at WOT.
 
I think I remember Beebe and others suggesting 1.00*SQRT(LWL) -- instead of 1.34*....

-Chris

Same thing Ranger. Except not as accurate.
But "one knot slower" is a lot more usable and understandable than formulas. Many more will make use of oks than a formula.
Speaking of formulas FF seems to have forgotten the 1.34 part.
 
Same thing Ranger. Except not as accurate.
But "one knot slower" is a lot more usable and understandable than formulas. Many more will make use of oks than a formula.
Speaking of formulas FF seems to have forgotten the 1.34 part.

Hi Eric, No disagreement with your analogy

Applied to our boat would result in a 5.9 knt setting. There is slow and then 'Too darn slow'.
I have been running at 1450-1500 RPM for 1.5 gallon fuel burn for a 6.5 knot average, up hill and down. The noise level at that setting is 71 decibels.
Recently the throttle has been increased to 1650 RPM resulting in a 7 knot average up hill and down. The decibels increased to 73. The fuel burn has increased to 1.7 gallons.
All of this is somewhat contrary to the formula(s) being expressed here so one has to go with "What ever floats your boat".

Fuel-Speed-Cost, pick two.

Al-Ketchikan
 
That 1.34 works mostly for cruising sail boats as hull speed , with almost unlimited energy from a following breeze. Expensive in a motor cruiser

The usual cruise speed is Sq rt Lwl, times .9 to 1.1 mostly due to the shape and weight of the boat.

The biggest good deal is lots of charts (AICW) are in statute miles 5K=6mph.

So 8 mph sounds better than 7K at the bar.
 
Dave,
I think you are absolutely right. Boats are very different but one knot below is a convenient, handy and (for the boats about Mark's size (or a bit larger) it works well for dock talk or even a rule of thumb.

It fits only FD boats near perfectly but almost any boat can use it effectively. 40-50' boats need only think to raise the "one knot" to about 1 1/2 knots. However most SD boats w a straight and level run aft and planing boats may not find "one knot below" all that useful. Generally I'd say hull speed for them.

But Dave you're right it's very arbitrary. Don't think I've heard it outide TF. Somebody here brobably started it. Mark very likely may have but I travel 99% at one knot below and probably have talked about it.

I've found that doing 7.5 to 8 knots [hull speed calcs at 7.58 knots for our planning hull boat] drops nmpg down to about 1.5. Whereas doing 6.5 to 7 knots raises nmpg to right around 2. And, by shutting down one engine and doing only 4.5 to 5 knots we get near to 3 nmpg. Of course we always try to travel with the current so that sog is faster than boat travels through the water's actual surface area.
 
Hi Eric, No disagreement with your analogy

Applied to our boat would result in a 5.9 knt setting. There is slow and then 'Too darn slow'.
I have been running at 1450-1500 RPM for 1.5 gallon fuel burn for a 6.5 knot average, up hill and down. The noise level at that setting is 71 decibels.
Recently the throttle has been increased to 1650 RPM resulting in a 7 knot average up hill and down. The decibels increased to 73. The fuel burn has increased to 1.7 gallons.
All of this is somewhat contrary to the formula(s) being expressed here so one has to go with "What ever floats your boat".

Fuel-Speed-Cost, pick two.

Al-Ketchikan

But as I recall Al you don't have a FD hull so hs should be good for you.
 
I've found that doing 7.5 to 8 knots [hull speed calcs at 7.58 knots for our planning hull boat] drops nmpg down to about 1.5. Whereas doing 6.5 to 7 knots raises nmpg to right around 2. And, by shutting down one engine and doing only 4.5 to 5 knots we get near to 3 nmpg. Of course we always try to travel with the current so that sog is faster than boat travels through the water's actual surface area.

Art,
It's about a good or ideal speed .. that's all. And of course speed requirements differ w owners too so "best" will vary on the same boat. Very little wiggle room on a FD boat but SD has more speed latitude. Planing even more.
But one knot below (faster if the boat is bigger .. longer) works great for FD boats or near FD. Or even close. All boats are different.
 
That 1.34 works mostly for cruising sail boats as hull speed , with almost unlimited energy from a following breeze. Expensive in a motor cruiser

The usual cruise speed is Sq rt Lwl, times .9 to 1.1 mostly due to the shape and weight of the boat.

The biggest good deal is lots of charts (AICW) are in statute miles 5K=6mph.

So 8 mph sounds better than 7K at the bar.

FF,
I love the "at the bar" part.
Or could one say "on TF" ?
Good post thanks.
 
I have been running at 1450-1500 RPM for 1.5 gallon fuel burn for a 6.5 knot average, up hill and down. The noise level at that setting is 71 decibels.

Recently the throttle has been increased to 1650 RPM resulting in a 7 knot average up hill and down. The decibels increased to 73. The fuel burn has increased to 1.7 gallons.

All of this is somewhat contrary to the formula(s) being expressed here so one has to go with "What ever floats your boat".


It seems to me that the extra 1/2 knot for only a .2g/hr fuel burn increase is a pretty good bargain. I'm a bit surprised that a 150-200 rpm increase only increases your burn by .2g/hr.
 
Perhaps if we got off the term hull speed or displacement speed as what we're really asking about it "Economy cruising speed". In fact, many boats, especially larger semi-displacement and planing ones, list three speeds in their data. They list WOT, Wide Open Throttle. They list Cruising Speed (some refer to as Fast Cruising Speed), which typically is a sweet spot around 70-80% load and they list Economy Cruising Speed which is the speed which gives the greatest range and is typically one knot or so below a calculated hull or displacement speed. In most performance charts of semi-displacement or planing boats the curve looks something like this. A very significant savings somewhere around 70-80% load vs. 100% throttle. Then only a small improvement in nmpg and range as one reduces load. Then at some slow point a dramatic improvement in efficiency occurs.

I pulled up a couple of performance charts.

A Hatteras 60 with twin 1135 hp CAT's.

Range at WOT (31.5 knots) is 236 nm.
Range at 70% load (25.4 knots) is 279 nm.
You get very little improvement until you drop to about 33% load
Range at 33% load (15.9 knots) is 358 nm.
Range at 10% load (10.3 knots) is 773 nm.
Range at 5% load (7.2 knots) is 1083 nm.
LWL is 53'4"
So using 1.2 instead of 1.34 is 8.7 knots and the 7.2 knots is near what most would be calling 1-1.5 knots below hull speed but very close to 1 x sq rt LWL which is 7.3 knots.

So WOT 236 nm
Cruising speed 279 nm
Economy cruise would likely be represented at 773 nm but maximum range or displacement speed using 1 x sq rt is 1083 nm or using 1 knot below 1.1 x sq rt. Either way this is your slow cruising speed and maximum range.

So the three ranges listed are WOT 236 nm, Cruising 279 nm, Economy 1083 nm.

Using a Beneteau ST 44 with Twin 300 hp Volvo

Range at WOT (25.6 knots) is 303 nm
Range at 70% load (19.6 knots) is 343 nm
Very little improvement until about 30%
Range at 27% load (10.0 knots) is 419 nm
Range at 10% load (7.4 knots) is 980 nm
Range at 4% load (5.7 knots) is 1733 nm
Now, while the Hatteras is a planing hull, this is a semi-displacement and it shows in the performance curve as it acts like a planing hull from 10 knots up but then the curve gets very displacement like and with each speed reduction the range changes significantly.
I'm guessing calculated "displacement speed" is between 5.7 and 7.7 knots
This might be represented as
WOT 303 nm
Cruising range 343 nm
Economy range 980 nm
Maximum range 1733 nm

I should note that on a displacement boat you see a smoother curve as every speed reduction results in fuel savings.

Looking at a KK 48 with a 225 JD.
At WOT (9.6 knots) range is 783 nm
At 80% load (9.3 knots) is 956 nm
At 40% load (8.4 knots) is 1786 nm
At 12% load (5.7 knots) is 3913 nm
At 8% load (4.7 knots) is 4739 nm

LWL is 45'5"

So using 1-1.34 then "displacement speed" is 6.7 - 9.0 knots.
On this combination though where you're pushing through the water, there is range increase and improved efficiency at every point along the scale. It becomes just how slow one wants to go. Most probably run between 6 and 8 knots using the lower speed if they're trying to cross oceans. I imagine Richard's curve on Dauntless looks very much like this. He reduces speed to the distance he needs to cover.

These are just three examples of three very different boats with very different hull types and characteristics. Reality is there are thousands of different types and no boat perfectly fits any label.

However, in a displacement type boat one is going to see a change in fuel consumption at every speed. In a semi displacement, this will be seen at slow speeds, but then once on plane it will be fairly level up to about 70% load then a big change. On a planing hull, below planing speed a change at every speed, but once on plane very little change until you pass 70-80% load.

We all have to learn the characteristics of our boats. Then we choose the speeds to run. We have one boat that has identical range from 15 knots to 36 knots. 266 nm, 0.35 nmpg. Most boats that plane in any fashion have very slight differences in nmpg between 30% and 70% load but large differences above and below. Boats referred to as displacement hulls generally have changes in nmpg at every load and every speed.
 
I think I remember Beebe and others suggesting 1.00*SQRT(LWL) -- instead of 1.34*....

-Chris

Works for us.
X 1.34 has us doing 10+ knots, dragging our bum, pushing water, making noise and wasting fuel @ 1500 rpm.

X 1 has us doing around 7.2 knots, sitting flat, no wash and burbling along @ 1100rpm.

We are 60 ft, 65 tonne and have a single 315hp/14 litre Cummins nta855
 
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Mark

With all the negatives of pods low speed control is not one of them. We can hold in one place (within 20 - 30 feet) with a push of a button.

Based on my observations, yes, experts in their use such as tugboat skippers are masters of control.
 
Mark

I'm no expert by any stretch of imagination but after a week practicing I was as good with the Joy stick as I was with twin throttles and bow thruster. That being said my new boat will be shafts with thrusters fore and aft.
 
Bruce

I do have twins but playing jockey with the sticks is a PIA over a long time.
 
After a bit, it became second nature to me. I actually kind of like it, and the results, when everything goes well, seem better than playing the "waking the prop" game. Each to his own.
 
Bruce

I do have twins but playing jockey with the sticks is a PIA over a long time.
True. I`m using them short term at close quarters usually, like threading through a mooring field, docking etc, when common wisdom is they are better than helm. But, I do find, the tightest turn is achieved with throttle/gears, plus helm hard over.
 
The big positive is that the joy stick us intuitive, put a youngster at the helm and it's easy. Even my incumbent wife can dock the boat (after some screaming and praying). :)
 
It seems to me that the extra 1/2 knot for only a .2g/hr fuel burn increase is a pretty good bargain. I'm a bit surprised that a 150-200 rpm increase only increases your burn by .2g/hr.

Hi Dave,:flowers: You are somewhat correct. Today I filled the tank after a 13.5 hour run from Wrangell AK to Ketchikan AK. I filled in Wrangell to the absolute top. The gallonage today was 24 gallons on the nose. This works out to 1.77777 gallons per hour or 1.8 gallons vs the older 1.5 gallon at 1450-1500 RPM to now 1650 RPM.
Thank you for your observation and contribution:thumb:








Quote Eric-Manyboats

"But as I recall Al you don't have a FD hull so hs should be good for you."

Good evening Eric,:flowers: could you define ‘hs’? It is key to the thrust of your sentence. Too I note that you reference in a post of this thread of a “Near FD” hull while continuing to flatter my boat as a SD.
I would contend and ask your agreement to my hull being closer to a FD than a SD and therefore qualify for your definition of “Near FD”. What say you?:socool:

Al-Ketchikan
 
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