Radar from WWII...

[AlaskaProf]

<<...switched out for transceiver>>

I am just that guy. I bought a receiver for $200, here on the forum, from a guy who was upgrading (should've been my first clu, but price and especially plug-and-play simplicity overrode wisdom.). One season convinced me that was a false economy and I got a Vesper at boatshow price.

Mine displays nicely on Coastal Explorer, but I haven't integrated it with the radar because I believe the datablocks will clutter the display, masking other targets. I find the AIS most useful for strategic planning, while I normally operate radar on a "tactical" range, 3 to 6 miles.

 

[Boatfever]

All I have is a fly bridge, and all we ever boat in is clear weather.

That could change now that we have an actual boat capable of cruising, but nonetheless.

I don’t foresee us ever going into blue water, but I suppose it would be good to have in the ICW next year when we go to Port Arkansas or Padre Island.

Yes, I believe it's a good to have in the ICW. There is a lot of barge traffic along with the traffic in the Houston Ship Channel (getting to the ICW from your marina). Picture yourself in the ICW headed through West Galveston Bay, or further into the ditch, and amidst barge traffic you get covered up by a rain shower. AIS transceiver is also very helpful. Hailing a tow by name shown on your AIS makes communication that much easier. Which the transceiver you are immediately identified by the tow captains (and other boaters with AIS) Sometimes tows will hail you by name, making it much easier to get on with the conversation than guessing if you are the "Westbound pleasure vessel near mile marker xxx"

 

[ranger58sb]

Finally figured out how to turn the damn thing on, now I just need to know how to use it.

What do I really need radar for anyway? I’ve never understood its purpose on boats this size in local waters.

Fog, night (collision avoidance), night navigation (spot shorelines, nav aids, etc.), crowded waterways (with guard set), find bird find fish...

It's not rocket science. Should take about 10 minute with the manual and 10 minutes with an overview book on radar to get the basic idea. Then more in-depth study on specific topics as you learn new capabilities, and a lifetime of practice to get good at it.

Is this radar even viable? I mean can it accurately be used because of its age?

Certainly. Newer radars might bring things like color, overlay onto charts (and clutter up your chart picture), etc... but radar is radar. Learning a new radar wouldn't be any simpler than learning what you've got.

Your unit is probably only about 5 years older than ours; same basic display type.

All I have is a fly bridge, and all we ever boat in is clear weather.

That could change now that we have an actual boat capable of cruising, but nonetheless.

I don’t foresee us ever going into blue water, but I suppose it would be good to have in the ICW next year when we go to Port Arkansas or Padre Island.

Until you get caught out in unexpected/unpredicted fog. Or until you find you have to run at night for some reason. Or until you need another set of eyes on nearby traffic...

-Chris

 

[High Wire]

I was boarded last year for a safety check on the Delaware River by Coast guard group Philadelphia and received a warning for not having it on. Also, My slip mate, Dan Maxim (recently deceased) was the equivalent of an Admiral in the Coast guard Aux. I know you were both Coast Guard and CG Aux so Dan's name may be familiar to you. He wrote their manual and wrote manuals for the Coast Guard. He went out with me one day and saw I was not running my radar and told me I had to have it running.
John

Things have evolved since then.

 

[alormaria]

Good man Dan. And he was right. Morally if not legally.

 

[psneeld]

About having to have radar operating all the time on a small boat?

There is nothing moral or legal about turning it on in many small boating situations

While you are tuning it for a ever changing conditions and deciphering the returns...you could be running over someone else, into the banks or just aground.

Many small boats are run by one person at the helm and acting lookout. In clear weather and busy channels or narrow waterways...it's more distraction than help.

The safety types have been pounding data overload for years in bridge/crew management scenarios.

So......right from the USCG Navcen FAQ page....

"At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact."

 

[caltexflanc]

About having to have radar operating all the time on a small boat?

There is nothing moral or legal about turning it on in many small boating situations

While you are tuning it for a ever changing conditions and deciphering the returns...you could be running over someone else, into the banks or just aground.

Many small boats are run by one person at the helm and acting lookout. In clear weather and busy channels or narrow waterways...it's more distraction than help.

The safety types have been pounding data overload for years in bridge/crew management scenarios.

So......right from the USCG Navcen FAQ page....

"At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact."

I agree with you relevant to single handling in the situations you reference. But with two or more people, one manning the helm and another playing with radar, I disagree. We found doing so extremely helpful subsequently when socked in by fog on the Georgia ICW.

 

[alormaria]

You don't have to be in a small boat in tight quarters to lose sight of what is important. The Stockholm and Andria Doria were both large ships in open ocean and had the first known "RADAR assisted collision".



Always leave time to look out the window.

 

[psneeld]

I agree with you relevant to single handling in the situations you reference. But with two or more people, one manning the helm and another playing with radar, I disagree. We found doing so extremely helpful subsequently when socked in by fog on the Georgia ICW.

In restricted vis of course Radar becomes much more important....so having it in stanby, pretuned for the waterway, and the operator in the correct mindset is also good seamanship.

No disagreement there, its when it's clear blue and you are seconds away from danger that using the radar decreases safety rather than increasing it....

Thus no law or moral obligation to have it on all the time.

 

[johnma]

"At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact."

I wonder how this would hold up in a court room if there was an accident with injuries and the vessel had radar but it was not running. "prevailing circumstance" "determination made by the master". I would expect the opposing attorney or prosecutor would spend an entire day on what exactly that means.
John

 

[twistedtree]

"At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact."

I wonder how this would hold up in a court room if there was an accident with injuries and the vessel had radar but it was not running. "prevailing circumstance" "determination made by the master". I would expect the opposing attorney or prosecutor would spend an entire day on what exactly that means.
John

I expect it would come down to whether the radar would have made a difference in the prevailing circumstances. In clear conditions, it's hard to argue that it would make a difference. But in fog or darkness, clearly it would.


I run mine all the time, but not because I think the rules require it. I run it because it's good practice, and because I find ARPA really useful for accurately tracking other vessels such that I can stay clear in a predictable way. It figures out how I'm going to intersect with other vessels better than I can judge visually. I find it really takes a lot of the stress out of operation.

 

[psneeld]

R

"At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact."

I wonder how this would hold up in a court room if there was an accident with injuries and the vessel had radar but it was not running. "prevailing circumstance" "determination made by the master". I would expect the opposing attorney or prosecutor would spend an entire day on what exactly that means.
John

OK...but that's a different arguement than "mandatory running it all the time".

Read the USCG FAQ, it discussed your very concern.

But in my experience, any attoney can spend all day on something and still never make a winning arguement out of it.

As our ships and planes have become more "electronically safe" through gadgets and automation.... we all have seen the accidents that still have occurred due to information saturation leading to distraction and failure to take approoriate, "common sense" action. Safety types have been blowing this whistle for decades and it is taken hold firmly with copious amounts of training directed at focusing on only the information and gizmos that are important to the "prevailing conditions".

I am not worried one tiny little bit on not having my radar on in situations where I can clearly see traffic.....and where multiple targets are constantly changing course, and shallows and objects are just seconds away (sound like many miles and days travel on the ACIW?).

I can show by mere reconstruction/simulation where a helmsman even just watching another person fiddling with the radar can be distracted long enough to put my vessel in bigger harms way than just looking ahead.

The bottom line isnt whether you have the radar on or not, its whether you have a collision first and foremost..... and two, who can show better that using or not using it contributed more or less to the collision.

AND that's why its left up to the master and not some simple rule. If it was, it would be one srntence and not like it is discussing prevailing conditions. It would read.... " if the vessel is fitted with radar, and it is operational, it SHALL be used at all times for collision avoidance".....

Then there would be another rule discussing minimum manning and training ....which is every beuracrats nightmare when putting it on paper.

 

[jimisbell]

All I have is a fly bridge, and all we ever boat in is clear weather.

That could change now that we have an actual boat capable of cruising, but nonetheless.

I don’t foresee us ever going into blue water, but I suppose it would be good to have in the ICW next year when we go to Port Arkansas or Padre Island.

Where is Port Arkansas?..........LOL Your spellchecker must have put the K in there.

 

[Delfin]

Rather handy to determine if you are on a collision course with a tanker when they are still a couple of miles off. It is for that purpose that I imagine the CG expects it to be on if you have it.

 

[Delfin]

About having to have radar operating all the time on a small boat?

There is nothing moral or legal about turning it on in many small boating situations

While you are tuning it for a ever changing conditions and deciphering the returns...you could be running over someone else, into the banks or just aground.

Many small boats are run by one person at the helm and acting lookout. In clear weather and busy channels or narrow waterways...it's more distraction than help.

The safety types have been pounding data overload for years in bridge/crew management scenarios.

So......right from the USCG Navcen FAQ page....

"At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact."

I have to disagree it is a distraction. Certainly not on all boats, but many trawlers may have limited visibility aft, and we glance at ours for the same reason we look out the window forward - to see what's there, and verify we aren't being overtaken by a ferry running at 18 knots. And, as mentioned, while some may be able to do the trigonometry in their heads to decide if you are on a converging course with another vessel, I can't. Rader makes it simple using an EBL.

 

[psneeld]

I have to disagree it is a distraction. Certainly not on all boats, but many trawlers may have limited visibility aft, and we glance at ours for the same reason we look out the window forward - to see what's there, and verify we aren't being overtaken by a ferry running at 18 knots. And, as mentioned, while some may be able to do the trigonometry in their heads to decide if you are on a converging course with another vessel, I can't. Rader makes it simple using an EBL.

Lots of safety types would disagree right back....

But like all situations, the level of expertise, training, actual use, number of crew, current conditions, wheelhouse visibility, weather visibility and more all apply...again falling back to leaving it up to the master and not making it a hard and fast rule.

Many inexperience boaters have trouble just getting it on, let alone setting up automatic features or interpreting a full screen in crowded waterways where you are juggling multiple collision courses. Big difference in having the luxury of one collision course and the target is miles away.

Sure having it on and operating is great for the well trained or experienced crew....handy at any moment. But not being true for all and a distraction for some....there is some latitude granted.

Watch people at a sports bar, no matter what is going on, some can't take their eyes off the screen...

 

[Delfin]

Lots of safety types would disagree right back....

But like all situations, the level of expertise, training, actual use, number of crew, current conditions, wheelhouse visibility, weather visibility and more all apply...again falling back to leaving it up to the master and not making it a hard and fast rule.

Many inexperience boaters have trouble just getting it on, let alone setting up automatic features or interpreting a full screen in crowded waterways where you are juggling multiple collision courses. Big difference in having the luxury of one collision course and the target is miles away.

Sure having it on and operating is great for the well trained or experienced crew....handy at any moment. But not being true for all and a distraction for some....there is some latitude granted.

Watch people at a sports bar, no matter what is going on, some can't take their eyes off the screen...

Hard to think that a safety type would consider leaving the helm to cover a 90 degree blind spot aft is less distracting than glancing at a radar screen, but if you say so.

 

[boatpoker]

Georgian College radar training, 11 weeks, MARE2039 Radar and Automatic Radar Plotting Aids

A step above your Garmin manual

 

[psneeld]

Hard to think that a safety type would consider leaving the helm to cover a 90 degree blind spot aft is less distracting than glancing at a radar screen, but if you say so.

My point is lots of boats like mine you don't have to leave the helm ...

Plus, what is behind you technically should be taking care of itself or making you aware of their presence. Crowded waterways...just like in automotive heavy traffic which again is more of my point, looking ahead trump's looking behind by a wide margin. Not an issue for an experienced helmsman, but to a novice, taking their eyes away from an ahead scan starts to become critical.

It's not that even, it's people have become switchaholoics and knob tweakers in today's world...like distracted driving is rampant.

Look at how many boaters stare at chartplotters and run right up on a beach or hit another boat.

 

[dhays]

I was boarded last year for a safety check on the Delaware River by Coast guard group Philadelphia and received a warning for not having it on. Also, My slip mate, Dan Maxim (recently deceased) was the equivalent of an Admiral in the Coast guard Aux. I know you were both Coast Guard and CG Aux so Dan's name may be familiar to you. He wrote their manual and wrote manuals for the Coast Guard. He went out with me one day and saw I was not running my radar and told me I had to have it running.

John

John, your two friends have more experience than I. However, There is no rule that requires radar be running at all times. Here is the FAQ from the USCG that psneed referenced.

“At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact.

Should you be in a collision how would a judge/jury rule on your contention that the use of radar was impracticable (due to electrical drain, crew shortages, etc.)? Also, if a collision does occur, then there was obviously a risk of collision beforehand. Could the determination of that risk have been made sooner with the use of radar? It is difficult to answer such questions because the circumstances of each case are different.”

So not having radar running isn’t a problem unless and until you have involved in a collision and a court determines that your judgement as the master was faulty. The judgement wouldn’t be that you failed to have your radar turned on, only that you failed to make the determination that your radar should have been turned on given the prevailing conditions.

That is significantly different than say the requirement to have your running lights on after dark. That is required regardless what happens.

FWIW, I typically run with my radar on even in great conditions. It is added information that I find useful and it helps improve my interpretation of the radar.

 

[rkrumm]

Is this radar even viable? I mean can it accurately be used because of its age?

I have the same antique model and it still works quite well so no need upgrading until it goes kuput is the way I look at it.

 

[majnun]

I'm curious about a set up I saw where the chartplotter is combined with the radar, and perhaps AIS also, All the marine traffic was shown on the screen.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I'm curious about a set up I saw where the chartplotter is combined with the radar, and perhaps AIS also, All the marine traffic was shown on the screen.

Too much clutter. Primary radar targets are often very tentative or intermittent; too easily lost in chart detail or under AIS tags.

I run my AIS and charting on a 19" monitor right beside a traditional 9" Raytheon PPI.

 

[rgano]

If you run your radar all the time in broad daylight, two things are surely happening. You are wearing it out at a rate faster than if you reserve it for the times you would really need it in poor visibility (night running is included here), and you are not learning what the picture looks like in conditions truly necessitating the use of radar. Every second spent looking at it is a second you could have been looking out with the Mark I eyeball. You probably are getting extremely limited benefit out of it in clear daylight conditions, especially if you have AIS aboard to tell you what that tanker is doing, and it may be less effective towards the end of its shortened life, and you won't know it. Don't get me wrong, run it in good and safe conditions to learn its use and for refresher training, but be prepared for the hit on your pocketbook lots more frequently than you would like for radar replacement if you run it at all times underway.

Reduced visibility use of radar brings on many more complicating factors. Remember how it was learning to drive when you transitioned to night driving? Your mind is far more focused on certain aspects at night. While your situational awareness is reduced in poor viz, your radar is also having its own issues because radars have their beams absorbed/reflected in fog and rain obscuring that big tanker, but an integrated AIS won't be degraded.

So after you think you know how to your radar in daylight, go out some sunset and let it get good and dark to start practicing running a known area with plenty of navaids using your radar. You will quickly learn about where the screen brightness is controlled and how to avoid blasting your night vision with that bright screen. Then you will learn the use of gain control as that darned small day mark you KNOW is there is for some reason just not visible. You will learn how confusing heading-up display can be if you are running a twisting channel and/or other vessels are nearby. If your radar is modern enough, you will learn the incredible assistance of map overlay and how to turn it off and on quickly to clarify your picture. These are not trivial matters when you are "in the moment" in restricted maneuvering in poor viz - you need these skills NOW, not ten seconds from now. Lastly you will learn what I did as navigator of two destroyers and skipper of vessels, when in doubt, STOP the darned vessel and reassess - unless under fire, of course.

While I had a skipper who routinely ordered us to shutdown the radar around the clock (in good visibility) to learn how to operate in war conditions, especially when running by China, the most frightening radar-related experience I remember was while running in daylight off San Diego, CA with radar on in a fog so dense we could not see the forecastle a hundred feet away. The ship was at 25 knots, captain on the bridge requiring the speed for reasons I do not remember, me conning, and I just knew we going to kill somebody in a small vessel we'd missed on radar that day and then land in the brig ourselves. High speed running in low viz (GPS/AIS or not), is punishable by death.

This thread is the first time I have ever heard of a USCG citation for not having a radar on in clear daylight conditions - those WERE the prevailing conditions, right? I would appeal any such foolishness based on the USCG's own printed stance on this issue.

Lastly, if I get involved in a collision in clear daylight and end up in admiralty court, guess what? My radar was on! Prove differently.

 

[Mmfitzpatrick]

Know how to use your radar

Wouldn't say you need it on all the time, but need to use it often enough to get it up and running quickly.

If you get caught in an unexpected fog or some other low vis situation, the last thing you want to be doing is trying to figure out how to get the radar running.

Martin

 

[grandrews]

We were up in the Broughtons this summer and were making way south in low visibility. Radar pointed a stationary object on our path and as we neared, a fishing boat loomed out of the fog. He was stationary. Smart guy. He had his radar on, saw we were moving toward him and stopped. As soon as he got visuals on us he gunned it and got out of the way. With us in sight, he could now make sure of my course and take evasive maneuvers.

We also use it to place where the large ferries that ply the Strait of Georgia are going. We can match the return with the correct route as depicted on the plotter and then know where he is headed based on the route he is on.

If you are out at night, no matter how good the vis is, it is a great safety tool.

 

[CapnCrunch]

At least it seems that way.

Finally figured out how to turn the damn thing on, now I just need to know how to use it.

What do I really need radar for anyway? I’ve never understood its purpose on boats this size in local waters.

You can download the Operation Manual at https://www.manualslib.com/products/Raymarine-R10xx-699389.html

 

[The Sally Ann]

You are correct. A MainShip really has no need for radar. They should only be used during daylight on smooth water....

 

[tallswede]

I have an oldy radar too and haven't tried to fire it up yet. I've had the boat almost 3 years now but I plan to try it out this winter. Thanks Boomerang and others for the info!

Kevin

 

[Wxx3]

Another vote for The Radar Book.

If you don't have it on and play with it when it's a clear day, you will have no idea how to use it and interpret what it is showing when you need it. It is also excellent for giving you the distance to objects and potential collision courses. For those without a 360 degree view from the helm, it acts as a rear view mirror of sorts. Lastly, if you are in thunder storm territory, it is an extremely valuable tool for tracking those.

As you and Mark P have said, you should be using it all the time, especially in good visibility so you understand what it is telling you and what it isn't.

If you are not doing this. You should not depend on it when you need it.
No matter how many bells and whistles it has or how pretty or detailed you think it is, you must fine tune it to get 100% of what you want.

That fine tuning must take place in good weather and vsby.

Try testing yourself and whoever else keeps watch.
At any given moment, you should be able to identify every single return. Plus look around, are any targets out there that it is not showing??

With different sea states, it must be adjusted.