Rebuild or Turnkey?

[mattkab]

We are not shopping for a boat at this time.

In fact, I have quite a few projects on my own boat that need my time, attention, and money. But that doesn't mean during lunch at my desk I don't open up a web browser and look around at boats for sale.

One group of boats that keep showing up in my searches, that continue to be intriguing, are boats that are in need of a refit (or even a rebuils) but that are being basically given away. I tried to search the archives for similar threads, but they were difficult to come by.

So, for this particular thought experiment, assume you had a purchase budget of approximately $150k. And you were looking for a 40-50' boat for relatively near-shore, but moderate length cruising (examples: inside passage from Seattle to Alaska, Harbor hopping SF to Mexico, ICW, Bahamas). Two stateroom accommodations. In each case, the same $150k would be spent when the boat is launched. I did a quick search and found some sample boats that fit the parameters.

Would you be at all interested in buying a boat that you then put on the hard, spent a year completely gutting and refurbishing specifically to your tastes and desires?
1994 Bruce Roberts Wave Runner 45 Trawler Power Boat For Sale -

Or maybe taking a commercial boat at converting it to a cruiser?
1927 Kishi Bros Converted Seiner Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Or would you simply spend the time boat shopping until you found the right turnkey boat?
1986 San Pedro Boat Works Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
2004 Mainship 400 Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

I'm not purchasing or offering anything so you can't hurt my feelings on this one, so please be honest.

 

[Mule]

Well I lost my fist try so I will send one at a time. On your coast, you would have $100k to play with, or more. Get a load of this...1964 George Sutton and Jay Stoddard Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

 

[Mule]

Now for turnkey...1985 Lowland 471 Trawler Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com. Wrong coast.
Still have around 50k for updating.
To answer your question, turnkey is the way to go especially if you can buy a boat some other fool has done the heavy lifting...like me with my 34 Mainship. The first boat could really be a special little ship though. As for your WOOD 1927 boat....Really?????

 

[mattkab]

As for your WOOD 1927 boat....Really?????

No, not at all.

But I've seen even 80' commercial boats occasionally show up for less than $20k. Most are steel, and that's too big for my use. But if I wanted to liveaboard?

 

[swampu]

I've been building for years now. Can ever seem to get a good push. This was they year and then life got me a little. Turn key and use it now is the best approach. IMHO

 

[Mule]

I like the Lowland but either the Sutton or Lowland would work. Lots of new pix since I saw the Lowland, the problems are being shown somewhat. The Lowland was a featured boat in Passagemaker Mag. That boat at 100k with 50k to fix would be really special, as would be the Sutton.. Trouble is with the Sutton it may be a bottomless pit. The lowland needs no teak decks exposed to sun, a little here, a little there and you r done, as with every "turnkey" boat.

 

[O C Diver]

When boats were selling for premium $$$ 8+ years ago, major rebuild / refit was a very viable option. Now, the used market is still pretty over stocked and boats are still selling way below what they are worth (buyers market). Hard to see the value in spending 50%+ of your total investment in fixing up a junker. Now if you are short on $ and can do all the work yourself, that's another argument.

Ted

 

[Billyfeet]

That Lowland looks neglected but was quite a vessel at one time. If I had not just gotten my Pilgeim I would be making an offer on it tomorrow.

 

[SaltyDog]

I have been working on our vessel since we acquired her in 1998.

What I have learned is that working on a boat that can be used and enjoyed is fine with me.

We are Great Lakes boaters and are limited by seasons.

The recent brightwork, hull and house painting is very rewarding in some ways, but it was too long of a project. Very glad I did it, but it involved the loss of a boating season. For full disclosure it must be mentioned that personal and business real life events were as much a factor as anything, but missing an entire season was a very high price to me.

Things I would suggest one consider are the following:

What will it cost to store? This could range enough to make the decision for you.

What is the time missed boating worth to you?

If one has the time to get away and cruise then turnkey makes more sense to me.

On Lake Michigan ones time and the weather need to align in order to cruise. I found that Plan A - cruise and Plan B - upgrade/maintain to work well. For the first 15 years I never missed a chance to go boating due to boat maintenance. The part of not being able to enjoy the weather, time, and feeling somewhat of a boat slave to be a once in a lifetime is enough, type of thing for me.

That I already knew and loved the boat was invaluable. I couldn't imagine that one would like to spend the time on a boat that did not connect the emotional dots.

Time or money is not tough. Time and money with good weather.........is a scarce blessing.

 

[FF]

There is no such thing as Turnkey , as so many choices are very individual.

If you will just be cruising there is still a set of choices.

The Marina to Marina folks will want bow and stern thrusters , onboard dink storage,
the anchor out folks will be far more interested in endurance, silently on the hook.

Even if the boat is 90% just what you want it will still be big bucks and time to obtain the other 10%

Remember the 90/90 rule,

90% of the work takes 90% of the time,

the remaining work ALSO takes 90% of the time.

If boat building is your hobby , get a fixer up and be happy for 5-10 years.

IF cruising is the goal , get the boat , get underway and in a year decide what isnt working for you.

 

[Pack Mule]

If you are ready to use the boat and go cruising I would go for as much turnkey as you can afford . We bought our boat 2 years ago . we were not in a covered slip at that time so we rebuilt all the interior and used the boat that summer.Then moved the boat and to a covered slip and took on a big project last winter replacing all exterior teak and building new doors . It was a push to get finished by summer so we could use the boat,but we did and the summer has been great . We only worked on what we had to over the summer so we could use the boat .We have decided to stay in covered slip and take on another project this winter .
Our idea was to buy a boat that !st:we liked ,2nd: we could afford,3rdne that we could do the majority of the projects ourselves .
I'm still working so we couldn't go cruising just yet. If I was retired I would rather be cruising than taking on any big projects. The things you have to do will always be there and that's ok. I have a shop at home and we are only 20 minutes from the boat so a big part of the work was done at home.Everyone's situation is different .Our plan just kinda made more sense to us.We may not ever get to go cruising but we are enjoying the boat when we can and working on it when we want .

 

[angus99]

There is no such thing as Turnkey , as so many choices are very individual.

If you will just be cruising there is still a set of choices.

The Marina to Marina folks will want bow and stern thrusters , onboard dink storage,
the anchor out folks will be far more interested in endurance, silently on the hook.

Even if the boat is 90% just what you want it will still be big bucks and time to obtain the other 10%

Remember the 90/90 rule,

90% of the work takes 90% of the time,

the remaining work ALSO takes 90% of the time.

If boat building is your hobby , get a fixer up and be happy for 5-10 years.

IF cruising is the goal , get the boat , get underway and in a year decide what isnt working for you.

Brilliant!

Most people seeing our 1987 DF 44 would describe it as turnkey . . . and it certainly was immediately usable. But there are always some things--from out-dated electronics to anchor preferences to neglected items or things nearing the end of their useful lives--that a new owner will want to change or fix. Best approach for us was to buy a well-maintained, fundamentally sound boat, use it now and enjoy fixing the 10% (along with the routine maintenance that even new boats need).

 

[rwidman]

It boils down this question: Do you want to go boating or do you just like to work on boats?

My choice is to go boating. I don't mind working on boats up to a point and I have spent significant time improving mine, but my primary focus is being able to hop on the boat and go somewhere.

 

[jdud133]

If "turnkey" means that you can safely use the boat right away then what do you think are the "must haves" on the boat and what can wait to be fixed or upgraded while you are using the boat?

 

[ghost]

The premise here is flawed. We all know that you don't get your money back from a project boat, you take a loss. Yet, the examples immediately fall into the same ole trap of assuming that the turnkey budget or project budget is 150k. The example does not simulate reality.

The correct mental exercise is that you either spend 150k on turnkey, or you can spend 300k+ on a project to get the same outcome.

The project advantage is that you will get exactly what you want and it may go further.

 

[rwidman]

If "turnkey" means that you can safely use the boat right away then what do you think are the "must haves" on the boat and what can wait to be fixed or upgraded while you are using the boat?

My boat had no navigation electronics when I bought it so I used the GPS from my former boat until I sold it, then installed a full Garmin networked system. It came with a manual windlass which I replaced after just a few uses.

Other than that, the boat was in great shape and needed nothing to be safe or usable.

Off the top of my head, this is what I've done to it since buying it:

Add TV set and replace antenna
Replace carpet with teak and holly simulated flooring
Replace canvas helm cover
Construct spice cabinet over stove
Install a permanent inverter and upgrade microwave
Buy a custom foam mattress to replace the stiff one in the V berth
Plus lots of minor things

 

[Ski in NC]

Too many "project" boats end up unfinished, with years and money wasted. Something in human nature allows even smart folks to grossly underestimate project scope. Once deep in, reality hits and the whole project becomes depressing. That can screw up one's life even outside of the project.

When building my boat, I was leasing space in a warehouse that had several "project" boats inside. The owners would come in now and then and poke and scratch for a while then leave. Nothing much got done.

Half way through my build, the scope of what was ahead became overwhelming. Running through my mind repeatedly was "I'll never finish this". Not good...

I figured out a little mental trick: Don't ever worry about finishing. Just walk in the shed, pick a task, work as long as you can, as efficiently as you can, and when tired, clean up and leave. Ignore how many other tasks exist. Next day repeat. Keep a punch list on the bench. When a task is done, scratch it off.

After a few months, a big portion of the punchlist was gone. Light at the end of the tunnel... Start to launch 20 months.

8yrs later the boat is on the dock, running well, 2000hrs on engine. Several of the project boats are still in the shed, looking abandoned.

The point of all this is DO NOT underestimate the scope of a project boat. Be it a new build or restore. In fact, I think a new build is way easier, nothing is rotted, scope of project does not grow during build, everything is new, etc.

Buy something fully operational and seaworthy. A list of fixits and upgrades, all will have that. But boat needs to pass sea trials and survey before you purchase.

 

[rwidman]

Most any boatyard that allows DIY work will have several unfinished boats blocked up where the owners have died or given up and stopped paying the storage fees and leaving the yard owner with a worthless pile of junk that he must pay to get rid of.

 

[Billyfeet]

Lots of good points about the merits of either path. The subject really is a complex question with too many variables not covered by the original question. "Turn Key" is actually a pretty broad category of boat. There are many used vessels that pass a survey without any faults. And after 6 months most of those will have had multiple minor or major gear failures. It is the nature of the beast. Even new boat under manufacturer's warranty usually have some down time because of equipment failure or installation glitches. Looking at a "budget" of $150,000 it is important to know the level of "do it yourself" ability and desire the owner has. And what the owner desires from boat ownership. If it is turn the key and spend 1 year aboard with the A/C running, ice cream frozen, windlass humming, watermaker providing endless hot water showers and 1,000 hours of diesels dieseling you better buy a brand new boat with warranty with $150,000 as a down payment and the $850,000 loan on auto pay from your Bond Interest account.....

 

[mattkab]

The premise here is flawed. We all know that you don't get your money back from a project boat, you take a loss. Yet, the examples immediately fall into the same ole trap of assuming that the turnkey budget or project budget is 150k. The example does not simulate reality.

The correct mental exercise is that you either spend 150k on turnkey, or you can spend 300k+ on a project to get the same outcome.

The project advantage is that you will get exactly what you want and it may go further.

Honest, and naive question.

Is this the case? I haven't done a full cost breakdown, but even assuming a complete repower and a deck core project, done by a yard, there should still be money left from the initial $100k. No?

 

[mattkab]

The point of all this is DO NOT underestimate the scope of a project boat. Be it a new build or restore. In fact, I think a new build is way easier, nothing is rotted, scope of project does not grow during build, everything is new, etc.

Point taken.

It's taken me 3 years to finish building a 10' sailing dinghy in my garage. I know I wouldn't be successful doing the work all myself. I also don't have the skill or equipment to do some other things (like a repower).

Thanks everyone, though, for the replies. It's been very interesting.

 

[ksanders]

I went the total refit route

Allot of good comments so far.

I'll share my story, so that perhaps others can learn. I'm including some of the financial parts because in a refit or a project boat its all about finances.

In august 2011 I purchased a neglected 2001 Bayliner 4788 from Key Bank. The owner still owed over $300,000 when he quit making payments.

At that time, in the PACNW current "market" value of this model in average condition was around $200-225K. Boats in pristine condition seemed to be somewhat higher perhaps $250K. Asking prices were of course much higher than that.

I was in the market for this exact model when I caught wind of the boat failing a mechanical survey with high blow by on one engine.

Upon my inspection of the boat I found that the interior looked great, but the mechanical systems looked like they hadn't been worked on much. Not just the big things, but smaller things like the doors not sliding smoothly told me that the boat just had not been maintained.

I made a deal with the bank contingent on sea trial and survey at $130,000. We arrived at that price based on based on my quotation from a good shipyard for two factory reman Cummins engines installed at $50K.

The survey didn't point out anything that my personal experienced inspection didn't reveal so I closed on the boat without further negotiation.

I was in Alaska, so I hired a captain to take the boat to North Harbor Diesel in Anacortes, Wa for refit. I did not have a budget per se, but I guesstimated that the complete refit would run around $100K. We agreed on a schedule of completion by November 1, 2011.

North Harbor Diesel is a large repair facility with a cross disipline team of technicians. My agreement with them was to start with the repower, and a complete laundry list of repairs. They agreed to bill me based on time and materials with a "large project" labor discount.

I made an initial deposit into their account of $50,000 to get started with the agreement that I would pay as work tasks were completed after that. Invoicing was to be on a task basis so I could keep track of the expenses and make sure I stayed on track with my goals.

My boat was materially complete on the due date we set of November 01, and at that time I spent a week on the boat and sea trialed it with the new engines. During this week I came up with another laundry list of things I wanted done to finish out the refit.

In the end my refit cost me right at $140,000 paid to North Harbor diesel, and approx $25,000 I paid for materials that I am a dealer for. I used a open checkbook policy of trust. I trusted that North Harbor were honest. When they called and sent photos of something they didnt like, I almost always approved that repair.

I have not taken the time to quantify the cost of the actual refit vs the cost of upgrades to the boat, but I'm guesstimating that I'm into the upgrade part at something around $50,000

What I got was a 2001 boat with brand new under warranty engines, a new generator, new almost everything else, etc... Basically a new boat built based on all of my years in boating, with the systems I wanted. I bought the very best of everything and didn't scrimp on anything.

Mu total out the door cost, before I ever drove the boat (except at sea trial) was $130K + 140K +$25K or $295,000.

I cannot compare that to any of the "used" boats that were on the market. It would not be fair. My boat was basically brand new.

The total time in the shop was from August 2011 to April, 2012. The boat was actively being worked on all that time.

Now for the advice.

First, in order to be successful at undertaking this sized project you have to hire a single ship yard you trust. Based on that trust you have to take their professional advice.

Next you have to be financially prepared. Remember the refit cost of $165,00? That has to be paid out of pocket.

Another part is that as a owner you need to not freak out over the unexpected several thousand dollar issues that will come up. It is almost impossible on a boat this size to know in advance everything you will find. You just have to let the project flow, knowing the outcome will be worth the effort. Arguing every time your project manager calls with another issue his team found will not move the refit forward.

My advice to DIY'ers or folks that buy the lowest price boat of that model on the market thinking that you're getting a great deal...

Do not even think about it. There is no way that I have the man hours to have completed my refit. Heck, they had over 200 man hours just in cut, polish, and waxing my boat. I do not care if you have the skills. I have the skills too. I'm telling you you do not have the time to ever complete the project and still work, and have a family, etc...

As far as buying the cheapest boat on the market..Well these folks are delusional as to the real costs to bring a boat up to par. If you are happy with a boat where you have a never ending list of defered maintenance, then thats OK, as long as you are honest with yourself.

 

[ghost]

Honest, and naive question.

Is this the case? I haven't done a full cost breakdown, but even assuming a complete repower and a deck core project, done by a yard, there should still be money left from the initial $100k. No?

You can sneeze and spend $10K in a yard. A diesel re-power can exceed $50K before you can say "boo".

The thing is, you can't just budget a re-power and re-core (re-core could be as bad as the repower by the time they rip everything out. You will start to "just" repower and find out that while your engines can be rebuilt, some parts in the cooling system are no longer available and you have to go to a custom or aftermarket replacement. Those things come at a premium, so now your rebuild is approaching 85% of a new engine and you still have old technology. So you decide to go with the new tech for a small premium and away you go. When the engines arrive, they go to drop them in and find that they mount differently than the old ones being longer, taller, fatter, skinnier or something that just does not go right. Might as well drop in new transmissions, but you find that the new transmissions have a different down angle than the old ones. One thing leads to another and you wind up putting in a different configuration of stern tube, shaft log, strut and well hells bells the shafts are now 1/4 inch too short so just replace those too. The engines spin at a different RPM so throw in 5 or 6 grand of props too (Would you like back up props?, cruising long distances?). Harumph. Oh, ring ring, "we started to replace your fuel return line today and surprise the coupling on the fuel tank is going bad, so we pulled the backing away and guess what we found...blah blah blah". Harumph.

I guess what I'm saying is that the scope of the work will expand the more you do. You almost have to plan a "complete" tear out of everything, I mean everything, and start over. It's the only way to plan with some certainty. Plus, since its a custom job, YOU get to be the one to find/figure out how a particular combination of parts works together in your boat. add 10% for that alone.

Look at the post of the guy who did is Bayliner, awesome job, actually pretty sane budget overall, but you might note it cost more than a "turnkey" boat. Might even be cheaper when 10yrs of maintenance is considered. Will he get to sell the boat at a premium, maybe. Maybe not, because in 5 years the bloom is off the rose and its just another "used" boat competing with other boats that have a lot of maintenance. He won't get all his money back out, projects never do. I'd sure like that boat though.

Keep in mind, when was the last time you saw a yard remanufacturing old boats on their own initiative. Hey, they have all the skill and could keep busy in the off times doing this. They even know when good boats come available. I've never seen one. That's because they already know how the math works.

 

[rwidman]

Mu total out the door cost, before I ever drove the boat (except at sea trial) was $130K + 140K +$25K or $295,000.

I cannot compare that to any of the "used" boats that were on the market. It would not be fair. My boat was basically brand new.

Except for the fact that it was ten years old and cost more than what similar models were selling for at the time. This is fine if you like the boat and keep it for several years. If for whatever reason (divorce, illness, death, etc.) you were forced to sell it during the first few years after the refit you would likely have a big loss. If it was totaled by accident, fire, sinking, etc., you would likely not get your investment back from the insurance company.

 

[caltexflanc]

I haven't done a full cost breakdown, but even assuming a complete repower and a deck core project, done by a yard, there should still be money left from the initial $100k. No?

No.

 

[CPseudonym]

Here is a video that has been posted here before to give you a bit of an idea what can happen in a re power. It's about 40 minutes long.

 

[ksanders]

Except for the fact that it was ten years old and cost more than what similar models were selling for at the time. This is fine if you like the boat and keep it for several years. If for whatever reason (divorce, illness, death, etc.) you were forced to sell it during the first few years after the refit you would likely have a big loss. If it was totaled by accident, fire, sinking, etc., you would likely not get your investment back from the insurance company.

You cannot justify a major refit for financial reasons, any more than you can justify buying a brand new boat for financial reasons.

That is part of the point I was trying to make by sharing my experience. I beleive that many people buy a boat needing a repower/refit thinking they are saving money, when that is just not true.

What you get by undertaking a repower/refit is avoiding large maintenance bills for a period of time. I knew that during my retirement I would not be able to afford to repower a large boat. So I did it during the last decade of my working years, knowing full well that I can drive my boat during retirement and not have the huge expense of a repower.

I also did it because I wanted a boat the way I want it. When you buy a used boat you are buying not only the boat, you are buying all of the previous owners opinions on how to fit out a boat. I havve been boating long enough to know what I want.

For example, and this is just one pf many things... I wanted forced air heat. I did not want hydronic. So when I put in a heating system I put in forced air.

I wanted zero time engines. I wanted a Northern Lights Generator. I wanted Furuno electronics, I wanted Satellite Commuunications. I wanted goost and EGT gauges. You get the idea, the list goes on and on.

As far as your other reasons, Divorce, illness or death...

Divorce , and I'm living on the boat, and cruising the coastlines of the americas.

Illness and well, the boat sits.

Death, if she goes, refer to the divorce scenario. If I go she is well taken care of and will possibly eventually sell the boat, but I wont care

Boating/cruising is not a short term hobby for me. I am only tied to land because of the love I have for my wife.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I did the re-fit and sure like the result but I'm sure it did cost me more than it would have to buy an equivalent boat on the market. But the likelihood of actually finding such a boat on the market were nil.

And also I saved money many ways that fell into my lap or were the result of the domino effect. In my favor. The yard wanted to get their new mechanic started in re-powers and the mechanic was a shade tree mech from Oklahoma (cars) and needed to learn the marine trade. My fuel tanks were bad and the combination of jobs were much less money the each would have been. Many mistakes were made by the mechanic and I haven't found them all yet. But they did nice things that occurred to them that I liked and don't think I paid for. My new engine was less than $6K (40hp) and I rebuilt the BW gear. There was only a low buck fish finder in the boat so I was able to buy all new electronics, batteries, batt tender (Xantrex). Spent money on what I liked and saved money excluding things I wasn't fond of. Passed on a fridge and kept the ice box. Did my own hydraulic steering w/o AP. Anchor winch (capstan) was less than $500.

You get the idea. There's re-fits and there's re-fits. But for us the - buy a good sound boat for cheap and re-fit - worked quite well. Didn't cost much more than buying on the market but almost everything on the boat is as I like it. That means a lot to me and I'd probably do it again. But if the right boat turned up next time I'd me just as likely to buy what I could find. But finding that right boat would probably be against the odds. My three favorite boats are the GB 32, the NT 32 and the Eagle 32. In reverse order. I would want to re-power all three.

There's so many variables and many aren't predictable so that's a question that can only be answered assuming average buyers, boats, access to goods and service average ect ect ect. Then the answer is that the most economical way to buy a boat is'nt buying a project but buying close to a top of the market boat in excellent shape w most of what one wants for equipment and features. Not a compromise financially but a compromise re the end result.

Also if you buy a boat that nobody has pumped money into you're getting short changed. The best buy boat has been updated by several owners w different areas of interest. Gets re-powered by a gearhead, rewired w lots of electronics, another gets new interior decor and High end painted ect ect. Then you come along and buy it for just a tad over market value.

 

[CMA1992]

Thanks for the great topic. We are currently in the beginning stages of searching for a 48-52 trawler/cruiser and re-power was a question I asked in another topic "RV's to Boats". I saw a 48 Defever w/twin Harvester diesels that is substantially cheaper (30k ish) than most others I have seen. After reading this topic-I think my idea of trying to re-power that boat was a bad idea. Thanks for the help

 

[Marin]

Would you be at all interested in buying a boat that you then put on the hard, spent a year completely gutting and refurbishing specifically to your tastes and desires?....Or would you simply spend the time boat shopping until you found the right turnkey boat?

When we decided that one of the first fiberglass GB36s made would suit our needs and budget, we paid the expenses for a good friend with decades of experience in the marine industry to go California with us when we inspected, sea trialed, and had the boat surveyed.

After we'd completed everything we went down to do and the engine and hull surveyors had done their thing, my wife and I had to make the buy-no buy decision. While we felt pretty good about the boat, our totally objective friend (he didn't care if we bought the boat or not) gave us the deciding statement:

"This boat needs a lot of things done to it, no question, but it's a boat you can start using and enjoying right away. As opposed to a boat that you need to spend a year working on before you can use it."

Which is what we as newbies to this type of boat wanted to do: go boating.

This was some sixteen years ago and while the boat has been a continuous "project" since the day it came off the truck, we have always been grateful for our friend's opinion. Because throughout those 16 years, we have been able to go boating whenver we wanted on a year-round basis because the boat always works regardless of what cosmetic, toilet rebuild, brightwork, canvas, or other project we're in the middle of.

We are in the process of replacing our boat with a new one and it will be interesting when we finally take delivery to see what it's like to have a boat that not only works every time, but doesn't have a mile-long to-do list right off the bat. Will we miss the little challenges our current boat has continuously thrown at us or not?

We know a few people who enjoy the working-on-it aspect of boat ownership far more than the using-it aspect. That's great--- they've become very, very good at it, and it provides them with a terrific sense of accomplishment. But our objective in boating has always been to be out on the water, not standing in the yard looking at it.