Replacing Engine After Only 335 Hours!

[bayview]

is there any oil slick in the exhaust system?

 

[rclarke246]

I understand about the engines finding their "happy level" and have given them a chance to do so, but when the level drops off the dipsticks I feel the need to add oil, right? I'm really looking forward to the service that ascertains exactly WHAT the dipsticks are showing.

Totally agree that Volvo seems to want to clear their desks of this case before fully checking things out. Remember, they have sent their authorized mechanic to the boat only once on this issue! Due dilligence is needed and that's what I seeking.

No oil slick or smoke, ever, that I have seen. Our white transom stays bright white.

 

[bayview]

since Volvo are willing to replace the engine it is possible they know something we don't. Other engines may have problems they are not revealing. I would be reluctant to drag out the process in case they change their mind.

 

[FF]

I would be reluctant to drag out the process in case they change their mind.

And if the engines were in series , I would ask Volvo why not replace them BOTH?

 

[MTMilam]

Just SWITCH Dipsticks to see if there is a Difference on What they read with opposite motors....just to eliminate the Dip stick being different for each motor.

 

[Padeen]

"We had a late model Audi with very low miles and the gasoline engine was burning a quart every 2000-3000 miles of synthetic oil. It was under warranty. The dealer did a oil consumption check and admitted it was burning oil but Audi said it wasn't using enough oil to replace/repair the engine under the warranty."

Had the same issue. I pursued an Audi spec for oil consumption through several levels of escalation at Audi. Audi will only say "it's not exceeding expected oil consumption". Probably would take a lawsuit to get them to disclose a spec based on my experience. It seems absurd that any automaker, let alone a German one, wouldn't have such a spec.

Having had this experience with Audi, the response you've received from Volvo sounds pretty reasonable.

 

[BruceK]

If you stop adding oil, and go for a long run,and the engine goes "bang!" do you think Volvo will be as accommodating as now? Yes, I know, they already say it needs a new block, but think about it, things could get messy.
The disappearing oil is a mystery, noting your careful observations, but it has to be going somewhere, and there is plenty of it to go there. Apparently Volvo are not taking you into their confidence, they should disclose the issue requiring engine replacement and resolve your entirely reasonable curiosity.

 

[rclarke246]

I checked, the dipsticks are identical so switching them to the other engine wouldn't tell me anything.

It DOES worry me that the engine serial numbers are consecutive.

Volvo is working with me by giving me and their service rep time for due diligence before major surgery.

As stated on this forum what I REALLY need, at least, is to get the oil completely drained then precisely read the dipsticks once the specified amount is added. This is the only way to calibrate the sticks that I know of.

Thanks again for all the help. I'll keep you advised.

 

[FF]

This is the only way to calibrate the sticks that I know of.

Yes but the angle of tilt of the engine might pay an important role.

Larger engines can be checked after warmup at idle.

Maybe Volvo had a oil check procedure for this engine while operating?

 

[bayview]

surely volvo would have checked all these obvious things. I suspect they have had similar problems before and know what's wrong just don't want to admit it in todays very public world.


Remember the soft French block issue with Cats long ago?


IMO you are lucky that Volvo is standing up and they are responsible for putting the boat back together properly I would not stand in their way.

 

[twistedtree]

since Volvo are willing to replace the engine it is possible they know something we don't. Other engines may have problems they are not revealing. I would be reluctant to drag out the process in case they change their mind.

I think this is a really good point. Manufacturers typically fight tooth and nail before replacing an engine. If they have said yes, jump on it even though it involves major surgery. Don't give them an opportunity to change their mind. Over time the problem will only get worse, not better, and you will end up holding the bag, not Volvo.

 

[rclarke246]

The Volvo service rep has visited the boat only one time, hooked up his computer while I ran the sea trial, and told me everything was to spec.

Afterwards, even he was fooled by the oil level, which was extremly slow to rise.

That has been the extent of their "hands-on" involvement.

 

[Gulf Comanche]

Suggest you jump on this pronto, personnel changes and time elapsed could bite you in the ass.

 

[twistedtree]

I guess I'm a little unclear on what the actual situation is.

Has Volvo said they will replace the engine covering all parts, material, and labor?

 

[Insequent]

I guess I'm a little unclear on what the actual situation is.

Has Volvo said they will replace the engine covering all parts, material, and labor?

All inclusive is the critical thing to confirm. But even so I would not delay in accepting the offer of a new long block. Sooner or later the problem engine will cause serious grief, and you dont want it in your boat and be wondering just when that might happen. Even if you have to cover part of the exchange costs now, in the long run you will come out ahead by doing it now.

 

[rclarke246]

Volvo has agreed to allow me and their service rep time for due diligence.

During this time there will be diagnostic testing, dip stick calibration, and 50 additional running hours.

Along with your comments, any suggestions on what tests can / should be done are most appreciated

Volvo has stated that should engine replacement be necessary they will pay for the job, all inclusive, as they would under warranty.

I'll let you know how this turns out.

 

[sunchaser]

During this 50 hours do not baby the engine. Run it like it was designed so that oil usage can be accurately noted. A newer 4 stroke will consume about 0.03% to 0.05% oil per amount of fuel.

Has Volvo told you in writing the design oil burn rate for that specific engine?

 

[CPseudonym]

I'd run it on the pins for those 50 hours. Diesel life is not about Hobbs meter numbers, it's about total fuel burned. The factory gave you 50 hours then you feed that engine every gallon of fuel it can burn in that time.

 

[cafesport]

Did you have the engines surveyed and fluids analyzed when you bought this boat? Nice benchmark to have for comparison. If not I would pull samples for oil and coolant now and have them analyzed. The Volvo dealer should be able to do a proper survey but if it was me I might be inclined to contact a third party independent maybe from up to 100 miles away.

For the record your burn rate doesn't sound that out of spec as my Luggers with 4700 hours burn roughly .0025 per unit of fuel. Your two engines are running: 7/(65*128)=.00084 and 24/8320=.0028 per unit of fuel. I'd pay a little more attention to the tight engine at this stage. Run them hard and hot at various speeds over the next 20 hours. And then pull samples again.


Via iPhone.

 

[rclarke246]

During this 50 hours do not baby the engine. Run it like it was designed so that oil usage can be accurately noted. A newer 4 stroke will consume about 0.03% to 0.05% oil per amount of fuel.

Has Volvo told you in writing the design oil burn rate for that specific engine?

This oil burn rate is interesting and I'll see what Volvo says what my range should be.

Do you mean .4%? Because .04% equates to .0004, which is minuscule.
65 x 128 x .0004=3.328 oz, right? But 65 x 128 x .004= 33.28 oz.

The first calculation seems low and the second seems high.

 

[rclarke246]

Did you have the engines surveyed and fluids analyzed when you bought this boat? Nice benchmark to have for comparison. If not I would pull samples for oil and coolant now and have them analyzed. The Volvo dealer should be able to do a proper survey but if it was me I might be inclined to contact a third party independent maybe from up to 100 miles away.

For the record your burn rate doesn't sound that out of spec as my Luggers with 4700 hours burn roughly .0025 per unit of fuel. Your two engines are running: 7/(65*128)=.00084 and 24/8320=.0028 per unit of fuel. I'd pay a little more attention to the tight engine at this stage. Run them hard and hot at various speeds over the next 20 hours. And then pull samples again.


Via iPhone.

They ran oil samples in the fall, around 50 hours ago. I'll have them take new ones and compare.
Why coolant samples?
Thanks for your help.

 

[sunchaser]

Yes, oil consumption on newer engines is quite low. They are designed this way to meet emissions specs as well as to achieve better efficiency. Don't get misled by what older engine owners report.

The Volvo D series are designed to be well below 0.1%, maybe 1/3 of that number. For on the road use Volvo has a design and compliance limit for new engines. This oil consumption number should be readily available and most likely to achieve certification Volvo engines have to meet a time limit for compliance, maybe 1000 hours on a Dyno.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[rclarke246]

They ran oil samples in the fall, around 50 hours ago. I'll have them take new ones and compare.
Why coolant samples?
Thanks for your help.

Oil analysis came back. Blackstone Labs in Indiana summarized that both engines seem extremely healthy.

I Called them as the samples from October 2014 were not compared, in the second report, to the ones in June 2015. The guy on the phone could not have been nicer or more competent! He reviewed both sets of samples, compared, and incorporated into new summary for me.

Still a mystery why it takes so long ( 10-15 hours ) for the hot oil to settle. Makes no sense. At least I know to wait before checking.
Back at it soon, as Lady Di sits in Marco.

Here is report From 1 engine if you can read it.

 

[rclarke246]

RickB,

Thanks for your comments on this.

I don't see how I've talked myself out of anything.

Volvo has committed to replacing the long-block, and will keep the case open until 3/31/16.

If at that time it's clear that the engine needs replacing - they'll do it.

 

[RickB]

RickB,

Volvo has committed to replacing the long-block, and will keep the case open until 3/31/16.

If you have that in writing with no other conditions then good.

If at that time it's clear that the engine needs replacing - they'll do it.

This is where things don't quite fit ... if Volvo agreed in writing to immediately replace the engine then it is clear to them that it needs replacement. It appears to have been your decision to postpone that procedure.

Is there an hours of use limit along with the drop dead and go away date?

So they are happy to let you keep adding oil and get another 1000 hours or so before they give you a new engine plus installation?

It is a no-brainer on Volvo's part to accept a postponement of financial liability as long as possible and if the terms of the postponement do not clearly state the conditions which trigger replacement then they may find it very easy to avoid any further responsibility. Every passing day works in their favor.

The "if" in "if it's clear" is the hanging chad ... is that word written into their agreement, and if so then what are the "clear" conditions that turn "if" into "will"?

Why would you even want to live any length of time with a problematic engine (or two) when the manufacturer has offered to replace it with no argument?

Something doesn't quite compute ...

 

[SCOTTEDAVIS]

Go grief guys, Volvo is willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars to replace the long block on this engine, do you think they know there is a problem?

They know that this is not going to be a long running engine and I would jump on the replacement at their expense.

You could wait and see and then have the fun of doing the exact same thing in a year or two at your expense.

Don't wait, if anything happens to that engine that reduces the value of the block or even attached items you may be on the hook for the cost, Volvo would love to say your delay caused an increase in their expense and therefor they rescind their full replacement.

Don't really understand the argument or even the question, just let them do what needs to be done and count your blessings.

I would schedule the work to start next week if it was me.

 

[CPseudonym]

I just love how we have dozens of threads on this forum blasting Volvo for no support and then we are treated to this hot mess.

 

[psneeld]

I just love how we have dozens of threads on this forum blasting Volvo for no support and then we are treated to this hot mess.

Is kinda funny...but I always felt it was lack of supporting the aging engines that got the bad rap. Boat owners expect support for many decades. Furuno always gets a high five for their legacy support...Volvo not so much.

But nice catch....

 

[sunchaser]

This oil burn rate is interesting and I'll see what Volvo says what my range should be.

Do you mean .4%? Because .04% equates to .0004, which is minuscule.
65 x 128 x .0004=3.328 oz, right? But 65 x 128 x .004= 33.28 oz.

The first calculation seems low and the second seems high.

It appears you are back on the hunt here. What does an oil analysis have to do with above spec oil consumption?

Your reported high (what is it again?) oil consumption triggered alarms, it should. Volvo has published oil burn rates, yours are in exceedance from the get go.

FYI, minuscule oil burn (not drops and leaks) is indeed the reality for modern era diesels. This summer my 12 year old 2000 hour engines are around 0.07% with drips accounting for a goodly amount.

 

[rclarke246]

It appears you are back on the hunt here. What does an oil analysis have to do with above spec oil consumption?

Your reported high (what is it again?) oil consumption triggered alarms, it should. Volvo has published oil burn rates, yours are in exceedance from the get go.

FYI, minuscule oil burn (not drops and leaks) is indeed the reality for modern era diesels. This summer my 12 year old 2000 hour engines are around 0.07% with drips accounting for a goodly amount.

Volvo told me that the oil to fuel burn should be no more than .14%.

The oil analysis was posted just incase anyone wanted to comment on the results, and because someone requested it on an earlier post.

Again, I'm not sure of the actual oil burn. I discovered that it takes these engines an eternity (10-15 hours) for the oil to settle out after use. As such, I may have unwittingly overfilled by waiting only an hour or 2.

When I return to Florida I will be all over this like a cheap suit! Over the next 30-50 hours I will precisely know the burn rate. If it's excessive I will have Volvo honor their commitment. Yes, I have it in writing.

To replace engines is MAJOR surgery and disruption. I'll be damned if I'll go through it before I KNOW it is necessary.

I'm not worried about Volvo going back on their commitment. They have been very up-front and honorable in trying to get to the bottom of this.

Thank you.