Repowering with hydrogen fuel cell electric drive.

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Stan Thompson

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May 14, 2020
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Iredell
Back when I owned 1977 Mainship I, hull number 11, I predicted that in 2025 Mainships would be powered by silent fuel cells. I still think that's about when the transition will begin. Does anyone know who now owns 1977 Mainship hull # 11?
 
Welcome, but I don't see people giving up the dependability and power density of good old diesel anytime soon. I know I won't by 2025.
 
I think we also discussed this more recently regarding a salt water powered engine, hydrogen evaporators, perpetual motion and Dr. Fusion time travel.

pete
 
The death of diesel - Trains Magazine - Trains News Wire, Railroad News, Railroad Industry News, Web Cams, and Forms

Diesel is the new asbestos. All major truck manufacturers and train builders have announced fuel cell product. The first H2 cruise boat is under construction and the first retrofit is underway. H2 shipping from Australia to Japan has begun. Trawlers won't change fast...but the first adopters are not that distant. They said the same thing about diesel trains until DE launched the iLint a couple of years ago.
 
I think we also discussed this more recently regarding a salt water powered engine, hydrogen evaporators, perpetual motion and Dr. Fusion time travel.

pete

While those are BS, a Hydrogen fuel cell is a real thing, with real HP coming out the end. Not going to get into the specifics. Do some Googling.
 
Cummins is famous for diesels. And now: https://www.cummins.com/fuel-cells The Coradia iLint hydrail trains being deployed across Europe are Cummins powered. All diesel trains in France, Scotland, The Netherlands, South Korea and Austria will be replaced in 15 years; the UK's in 20. In the 70s it wasn't illegal to operate diesel vehicles in any European capitals. Times have changed. Trawlers will too.
 
Greetings,
Mr. (saint) tt. 1975? Yup. That sounds about right. I vaguely (VERY vaguely) remember making a glass vessel to contain metal hydrides (?) for hydrogen storage. Gaseous hydrogen was absorbed (adsorbed?) on the hydride. No high pressure tanks. The hydrogen was burned when released and operated a Stirling engine (external heat source).


I think this was in support of Ballard who was in the initial stages of developing their fuel cell technology. https://www.ballard.com/
 
Greetings,
Mr. (saint) tt. 1975? Yup. That sounds about right. I vaguely (VERY vaguely) remember making a glass vessel to contain metal hydrides (?) for hydrogen storage. Gaseous hydrogen was absorbed (adsorbed?) on the hydride. No high pressure tanks. The hydrogen was burned when released and operated a Stirling engine (external heat source).


I think this was in support of Ballard who was in the initial stages of developing their fuel cell technology. https://www.ballard.com/


Right, I forgot about Ballard - along with the rest of the world....


Fuel cells are real and work. No argument there. The problem has always been the production of hydrogen, storage, distribution, and on-board storage and consumption. Also, a fuel cell produces a relatively constant output power, i.e. no throttle, or a very limited and unresponsive throttle. That's an OK match for some applications, but not so good for many.
 
Ballard powers China's hydrail trams in Qingdao and Tangshan. They powered the US Army's HH 1205 hydrail switch locomotive which may have used the units you built. It was successful but when Obama replaced Bush all H2 research funding dried up.
 
My experience with hydrogen fuel cell technology without actually owning a vehicle with it. First, Vancouver was an early adopter purchasing buses with this technology. Their shtick at various public functions was to have a bus attending and allowing people to drink the water that came out the exhaust (its pure water).

For the Vancouver 2010 Olympics, our Premiere along with the Governors of Washington, Oregon and California declared there would be a hydrogen highway from San Diego up to Whistler BC for the Olympics. In fact, only about a mile from my home in North Vancouver (Deep Cove actually) the hydrogen gas station was put in as part of the hydrogen highway pledge.

Well the hydrogen highway never really happened and about 8 years ago the hydrogen gas station was removed, never to be replaced.

Hydrogen has been around for many decades and I can remember in one of North America's fuel scare, don't remember which one, hydrogen was touted as the new fuel. In fact I remember a demo on TV in which a container carrying gas was shot (nice explosion) and a hydrogen container was shot - nice flare up, then nothing, no fire. So it was proven hydrogen was safer than gas. Does the gas is dangerous argument sound familiar here?

The critical issue isn't the technology but the supporting cast, just ask many electric car owners who travel long distances about this. So it some one came along in Seattle with a hydrogen boat, my first question would be - where is it going to fill up in Washington, BC and Alaska?
 
I'd think battery energy storage will eclipse hydrogen energy storage before the latter gets going. It is already in much wider deployment. Both require an original source for the energy, currently that source is mostly fossil fuels. The round trip conversion rate efficiency also favors batteries I think. New tech batteries are around 95%, while hydrogen fuel cells are <60, with low 80s as the upper limit.
 
Sadly, non-technical media folks touted cars as a premier hydrogen technology. But, like diesel, which first served ships, subs, trucks and aviation (to the Hindenburg's sorrow), new power comes LAST to the consumer market as a obvious matter of course.

You can't have both prompt uniquity and mass retail markets. Once diesel truck stops were everywhere, earliest car adopters could begin to be bold.

Marinas are few and far between. Equipping about half of them in one state would support a hand full of H2 trawler innovators. Then the next door states...and so on.

Nothing about hydrogen has held back cars. The grid is everywhere but look how many years it took battery cars to gain celebrity, even with Musk and Obama spiking fuel cell development with media hype of battery tech, never mentioning material sourcing and life cycle issues.

Two or three spaced marinas would support a small breeding/learning population of H2 trawlers for local greens, geeks and the curious affluent. It grows from there.

A complementary question is "How much longer before diesel trawlers take on the aspect of steam launches?" Not by 2030; but certainly by 2040.

Once Alstom rolled out their first two hydrail iLints, every major light rail
maker had one advertised wihin five years. First Nikola; then same thing with semi semi trucks.

It's not really about hydrogen. It's about the nature of change.
 
Greetings,
Mr. ST. "It's about the nature of change." Well, it is and it isn't. For short haul, fleet, some industrial and commute applications, hydrogen will be in direct competition with electric vehicles IMO. Usage that will NOT involve long distances or extended travel times and where filling stations can be kept and operated in a safe manner.



The problem with storing hydrogen at close to atmospheric pressure (metal hydrides) was that it took hours to charge the storage medium and release was quite slow. Keep in mind I'm speaking of 50+ year old technology. I have no idea of the current state of affairs but completely unsuitable for a vehicle.



The alternative is high pressure hydrogen which, I suspect, would be close to natural gas in that one might pull up to a fuel station, plug in the hose and recharge your on board tanks. Fair enough BUT hydrogen under pressure will spontaneously ignite if a small, high pressure leak occurs. Large leak like the test mentioned in post #13, no problem. Poof and it's gone. Small leak? The way I understand it the friction of the stream of gas ignites it.


Normal practice when connecting full, high pressure gas cylinders (oxygen, acetylene, argon etc.) is to quickly crack the valve to blow out any contaminants (dirt or dust) that may be in the valve before connecting regulators. NOT so with hydrogen. Good chance of fire. Visual inspection and manual cleaning was best practice.


Imagine a poorly maintained car. Hydrogen leak on the high pressure side and....


One other thing is a hydrogen flame is clear and colorless so you may have a fire and not even notice it. Don't ask how I know.
 
I was down through Port Fourchon LA last winter, and someone told me that they had a big initiative there to convert work vessels to run on natural gas. Thought that was an interesting idea. Probably have CNG capabilities there.

Problem with hydrogen is supply in most spots.
 
The problem (in my experience) is not supply, that is a symptom.

The problem is you have to manufacture every molecule from some other source/fuel ($$$). Then compress it, hold on to it, move it somewhere, keep it in something, then put it into some transport machine to go some where.

The problem is it is the smallest molecule in the universe (measured in picometers). Makes propane at .43 nanometer look big. A diesel molecule is a brontosaurus in comparison. It is very difficult to keep inside something even with skilled technicians. No way Joe/Jane would be able to do this at a Costco H2 pump, requires too much attention to details on seals and technique.

I learned about this while trying to keep H2 in a gas switch at 1000 psi for months on end. The darned H2 will go right through solid metal given a chance! I had to come up with special seals and surface treatments to get it to work. Patent-grade design it was.

H2 has a very wide explosion limit, called LEL and UEL (lower/upper explosion limit). Easy to set it off. We demonstrated that in the lab one day by blowing 50 feet of CPVC duct pipe off the wall during the calibration of an h2 mass flow controller. Big bang set off by the motor in the exhaust fan.

Reformulating H2 from fossil fuels is just plain stupid, just go burn the fossil fuel in some machine that will be way more efficient and cost effective than making it into H2.

And if you want to use solar to make H2, fine, just do an honest comparo to using that electricity to do a job instead. Charging batteries beats the H2 thing every time. H2 is not a fuel, it is an intermediary like electricity that is hard to deal with.

Would I want a couple huge H2 tanks on my boat? No way! And I'm one of those outliers who fill the little green bottles with propane!
 
Hydrogen is an answer to the question, "how do you transport and store renewable energy in a post-carbon, post extraction world?"

It will power cars...but only way after it's become the norm in powering trucks, ships and planes. Debating its merits as a fuel is a bit like calculating the properties of wheat as a boiler fuel. Very accurate numbers can be computed but why bother?

Comparing H2's properties, advantages and penalties with extracted fuels is like mulling, "Which is best, propane or alternating current?"

The extraction world is subject to eventual depletion and unwanted co-products: dross, sludge, ash, slag, accumulated toxicity, climate CO2.

The renewables world has a new and still unfamiliar set of problems—rather like gasoline posed in 1905. We are not yet experienced in its safe use. But that's about us, not about hydrogen, and will change with time. H2 will always be the same. There is no agreed way to create and fund its production and transport. There will be by 2035 when France, South Korea, Scotland et. al. have no more rail diesel. Is it likely that no fuel cell trawlers will have appeared when all rail diesels are gone in smaller advanced countries?

Electrolyzers and fuel cells are like rectifiers and inverters. They transform energy for the next use in whatever process they're incorporated into. Hydrogen is a new "bungie-cord" electrical technology. Trying to reconcile its role as a mined fertilizer reagent (or as a fuel) with its energy transport function can be done but it fogs more than it clarifies.

H2 trawlers will require much less ubiquity than cars and, so, a much smaller H2 infrastructure. That's why they'll probably become usual long before H2 cars do...unless a new battery marvel dictates otherwise.

Search USDOE's "H2@Rail(SM)" Odd as it seems at first, for "paradigm shift" purposes, commuter trains are a better model for trawlers than cars are. The ICW is more like a track than like a city or a county.
 
You obviously know hydrogen tech in way more detail than I ever could.

But let's reconsider Joe and Jane.

They are not at Costco but at the same marina where the attendant hands YOU the hose in case there's a reportable rainbow. I think Joe and Jane could do this as easily as they can wrangle that diesel hose:

 
Nailed it.

GoneFarrell... WELL PUT! You totally nailed it! And didn't even get into the fact that it takes WAY more energy (and creates more pollution) to extract hydrogen, compress it, transport & store it; than just using that energy source to drive the vehicle/boat in the first place. Add in all the massive losses and it's just stupid to use fuel cells.
With all the tech and improvements that are happening every day with storage mediums for electricity, and the many ways to create it with little or no pollution, it's WAY more likely you'll see electric trawlers, cars, etc., that are just using the electricity via storage cells, rather than big heavy high-pressure hydrogen tank bombs. Oh ya, they're already doing that!
Solar catamaran trawlers, sailboat auxiliaries converting from pistons, electric powerboats & hydrofoils, etc.
All the short-sided, green, hippy-thinking of "hydrogen burns perfectly clean & only gives off water" is true, but you have to look at all the details. And unless you can find naturally occurring hydrogen you can just suck up and use, it's a looser.
 
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