Rocna Comparison?

[ScottH]

Interesting. Seems to me that once upon a time there CQRs were the best thing out there. But that was then.....

 

[Bigsfish]

True, and a sun dial was the most accurate method of telling time, everything evolves.

 

[Carl Martin]

True, and a sun dial was the most accurate method of telling time, everything evolves.

Good post but I'm pretty sure the Greeks didn't have CQRs. I'd say the CQR is more analogous to a quality wind up watch. Digital watches may be more accurate but I still prefer my old self winding Submariner.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how the holding power of a new style Rocna Vulcan anchor compares to an old style Rocna with a roll bar of the same size?

Re the last few comments I thought it was obvious the Rocna posters ran out of things to say.
As far as I know the R is the highest holding power general purpose anchor out there. Not by much though. Very little in fact.
But how much holding power does one need? Most think “all that can be had”. I disagree. Holding power is obviously important but what if you were offered an anchor at the same price that had twice the holding power as the Rocna? I’d say something like “so what”. Holding power is over rated. I had an anchor that held in a 50knot gale but was very hard to set. I’d quickly trade it for a forged Danforth. The hard to set anchor is in a landfill in Alaska now.

I think setting, short scope work and veering capabilities all found in the same anchor would be better than super high holding power. The modern anchors hold so well that other priorities become more important.

It appears that few think manufacturer’s moral integrity is worth much as people still buy the Rocna. But the Rocna guy that was at the helm during the mild steel discovery is still there ... as far as I know.

Steve G’s Anchor Setting Video’s were very informative and it had little to do w holding power. Amazing things were learned/revealed about short scope performance and anchor reversals. My small Danforth experienced a 180 reversal w some wind (perhaps 18) and the boat didn’t move. W/o a camera I have no idea if the flukes flipped or rotated. Even very old anchors have some great abilities.

 

[Carl Martin]

We've always carried 4 anchors, 2 CQRs, a Danforth Hi-tensile and a folding Fisherman anchor. I have yet to use the back-up CQR or the Fisherman but the Danforth has seen plenty of use as our stern anchor or as a second anchor in storms. A strong anchor with very high holding power in sand or mud. However, it's not a great anchor for grass and has drug on us several times when we change direction. I prefer it to the Fortress because I think the extra weight is helpful.

I will admit that I recently purchased a Vulcan because fast easy sets would be a nice change. Hope it works as well as advertised.

 

[AKDoug]

I loved my Hi Tensile 20H, in the right bottom it was "the bomb". They are really hard to store on a smaller boat, and they hate weeds and rocks, but in mud or sand you can't beat them. Much stronger than the standard Danforth and the flukes are much sharper. I have two hanging in the shed, but carry a 10K Rocna as my backup because it stores under the seat in the galley.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Iwas going to tell you about my Dans but .......

Re the OP’s question I don’t know if there’s been a comprehensive anchor test including the Vulcan. Probably similar to the Spade but unless there’s something wrong w the Spade the Vulcan would almost certianly come in below the Spade. IMO. But brobably fairly close.
Doug do you trmember the prototype pics of the Vulcan? Didn’t look good at all. We were all calling it the tractor seat or toilet seat anchor. Still resembles the proto but look just fine now.
Don’t see how it could match the Rocna for holding power but would likely be better at reversals, setting and mud bottoms not to mention short scope. So the Vulcan may be the better choice. Presented w the pair I’d lean toward the Vulcan but I’d like to see it in a comprehensive anchor test w many of the top anchor present in the test. A multi-bottom type test would be best of course but the money for testing seems hard to come by these days. Still I’d get the Vulcan.

 

[AlanT]

I picked a Spade when commissioning my heavy 49' sailboat (Hylas) in 2005. We lived aboard and at anchor around most of the world for 4 years. I was very impressed with the Spade. It dragged once, just after commissioning, in Annapolis in a freak windstorm. We were anchored in well ploughed swampy mud in Annapolis harbor and we dragged very slowly and progressively across the harbor over about 40 minutes. This was a disconcerting start, but it never dragged again in around 1100 nights at anchor in many conditions and wind states. I will be replacing the Danforth on my new 60' Trawler with a Spade on delivery.

 

[Bigsfish]

Alan

I also went with a Spade 150#. I went against my instincts to buy a Rocna (both Larry and Ted have Rocnas on their bow so that is about as good as it gets but I was afraid the Rocna wouldn’t fit as I carry two anchors so I opted for the Spade as it has no bar. So far it’s been great, only once in the Bahamas I couldn’t get it to set (never checked the bottom). Personally I think most of the new generation anchors are excellent.

 

[Nomad Willy]

An obvious alternative to the Vulcan is the Manson Boss.
Both were designed at the same time for the same reason.

Two significant differences that I see is that the two anchors have the same shank design to right the anchor like a roll bar but in a different way. The Vulcan's shank has a slight "I" beam shape obviously for strength. So it's a bit heavier. The Boss shank may be as strong because Manson has been known to use the best high alloy materials. Steve (Panope) said some things thinking the Supreme's shank was strong enough to cut away significant parts of it and still have adequate strength. Never heard of a Manson anchor shank failure. I cut away the same part from my Supreme.
The other big difference in these anchors is that the Vulcan has a ballast chamber. Comparatively this could make the Vulcan a better setter in very hard bottoms but the Boss "Old Deck Hand" in Alaska has been using appearently needs no ballast. Perhaps he could/will weigh in here.

So the biggest difference is the shank and the ballast chamber. Both of features adds weight. Less on the shank and more re the ballast chamber. From that we can conclude the Boss is a higher performance anchor re holding power but as I've said many times before holding power may be the 2nd or 3rd most important feature of an anchor. But the Boss of a given weight will surely have greater fluke area and I've heard from more than one designer that fluke area is perportional to holding power. Seems reasonable but of course there are other variables in play.

Like a number of fairly new on the market anchors there's been little or no testing.
However we have a longtime member in Sitka that's had a Boss for quite a few years and all his numerous comments have been positive or better. Old Deck Hand.

 

[Simi 60]

Interesting when we contacted Manson directly to size an anchor for us, they steered us away from a boss and back to the supreme.

 

[Bigsfish]

Eric

On my previous boat (43 GB) I had a Boss, a great anchor and always held well but on the new boat the size of a Boss would been massive so I went with the Spade which is smaller in physical size.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Interesting when we contacted Manson directly to size an anchor for us, they steered us away from a boss and back to the supreme.

Perhaps they were overstocked w Supremes? haha .. sorta
Did they give you any justifications for the “steering”? I’m suspecting they thought the Supreme was more suitable to a bigger boat. As in the Supreme seems more like a Claw or a Forfjord and the Boss more lightweight like Danforth. When I first held a Boss in my hands I thought of it as .. well .. lightweight. Never had such an impression w a Supreme. Actually the opposite as in “robust”. I think the anchor manufacturers should post the fluke area instead of the weight.
As a parting thought. You hear much more about “bigger” is better than “heavier” is better. Pretty much every pound of anchor that isn’t in your fluke isn’t holding your boat.

At this point I’d rather have a Boss as a working “bower” until I thought it had “handling” problems like setting or reversal problems. I suspect it wouldn’t but if it did there’s always the SARCA.

 

[Simi 60]

Manson are in NZ and we bought from a wholesaler in Oz, so nothing to do with supply.
I do suspect your supreme is more robust comment would have been the reason, but we weren't given one and I didn't ask, or care, as I was wanting a supreme anyway.

 

[AusCan]

I think the anchor manufacturers should post the fluke area instead of the weight.
As a parting thought. You hear much more about “bigger” is better than “heavier” is better. Pretty much every pound of anchor that isn’t in your fluke isn’t holding your boat.
.

I would agree with your statement Eric, but only on soft bottoms.
On a limestone or other rocky bottom combined with weed, a big fluke surface area can be a disadvantage.
In cases like that it is more about weight and design.

 

[Nomad Willy]

AusCan,
Good point and well said.
Hey that’s my foot you’re stepping on .. why’s everyone rushing over to the Spade booth?

Simi 60 wrote;
“I do suspect your “supreme is more robust” comment would have been the reason”
Seems a natural for big boats. But I can see a very small one in my 12 rowboat. The Supreme is compact, as anchors go, so I’m think’in it’s the all boat anchor.

 

[SailorGreg]

So here is my experience, first with a Spade, then a Rocna and now a Vulcan.
The Spade was on a light displacement sailboat, mostly in the Caribbean. Usually set in its own length and usually set leaning on its side. It is possible the boat was just not powerful enough to get it to dig deep enough. Or as another post mentioned, I probably had way more holding Power than I needed. Never dragged. Mine was aluminum so all about holding power and shape, not weight. We sailed with a buddy boat for a few months and he often had trouble getting his CQR to set along side of us. Happened too often to say he was just unlucky with the spots he chose.
Next sailboat was heavier, a lot heavier. 65,000 lbs. had a 40kg Rocna. Three seasons in the Caribbean and one in the Bahamas and only dragged once after a wind reversal at Sand Dollar beach. When I hauled it up there was a huge ball of sod trapped in the roll bar. I had seen that before When raising the anchor, bringing up whatever from the bottom stuck under the roll bar.
Now we are happily on the dark side at 80,000 lbs in a trawler. I chose the 55kg Vulcan to avoid the issues mentioned with the Rocna. After 2 seasons in the Bahamas and a couple of trips up and down the east coast I would say the setting behavior and holding power of the Vulcan is nearly the same as the Rocna. It’s just a feeling but occasionally, in marginal bottom conditions, it seems the Vulcan is a little slower to set, or maybe fails to set where I would have expected it to. Once set, it has never dragged. I tied a short length of floating line to the end of the shank so I could see the anchor from above since it often completely disappeared under the sand. And it never brings balls of turf up from the bottom. Needless to say, I am happy with the Vulcan.

 

[Carl Martin]

So here is my experience, first with a Spade, then a Rocna and now a Vulcan.
The Spade was on a light displacement sailboat, mostly in the Caribbean. Usually set in its own length and usually set leaning on its side. It is possible the boat was just not powerful enough to get it to dig deep enough. Or as another post mentioned, I probably had way more holding Power than I needed. Never dragged. Mine was aluminum so all about holding power and shape, not weight. We sailed with a buddy boat for a few months and he often had trouble getting his CQR to set along side of us. Happened too often to say he was just unlucky with the spots he chose.
Next sailboat was heavier, a lot heavier. 65,000 lbs. had a 40kg Rocna. Three seasons in the Caribbean and one in the Bahamas and only dragged once after a wind reversal at Sand Dollar beach. When I hauled it up there was a huge ball of sod trapped in the roll bar. I had seen that before When raising the anchor, bringing up whatever from the bottom stuck under the roll bar.
Now we are happily on the dark side at 80,000 lbs in a trawler. I chose the 55kg Vulcan to avoid the issues mentioned with the Rocna. After 2 seasons in the Bahamas and a couple of trips up and down the east coast I would say the setting behavior and holding power of the Vulcan is nearly the same as the Rocna. It’s just a feeling but occasionally, in marginal bottom conditions, it seems the Vulcan is a little slower to set, or maybe fails to set where I would have expected it to. Once set, it has never dragged. I tied a short length of floating line to the end of the shank so I could see the anchor from above since it often completely disappeared under the sand. And it never brings balls of turf up from the bottom. Needless to say, I am happy with the Vulcan.

Can you tell us what your anchoring procedure is?

 

[sunchaser]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, our 40 KG Vulcan (one size larger than chart recommends) on an all chain rode has been flawless in all ground conditions we've encountered in the PNW. Scope normally 3:1 (high tide) below 20 knots. Drop it, very short idle reverse and done. 180 degree reversals virtually every tide change in light airs.

 

[SailorGreg]

Can you tell us what your anchoring procedure is?

Carl,
At the risk of major subject creep, not to mention mail from those who will insist we do this all wrong, I will gladly answer your question as to our procedure. First, in sandy Bahamas: we usually free fall the anchor so I hit the exact spot I am aiming for, since sometimes the sandy spots are small and surronded by weed. The chain stops feeding out when the anchor hits bottom. I use the wind to drift back with the anchor chain being pulled through the windlass. When I get to 5:1 I brake the windlass. The anchor begins to set and the boat stops. If it doesnt, I move. I then hook up my snubber (single line to a bow eye). I then release enough chain to get a loop below the snubber so now at approximately 6:1 if it is a shallow anchorage. I then set the anchor by working slowly up to 1200 RPM. There are many places in the Bahamas where there are a few inches of sand over a hard crust and I have found that the anchor will hold to 1000 RPM with these bottoms but break free at 1100-1200. The shape of the chain at 1200 rpm looks kinda like 40 knots. I then dive on the anchor or use my lookie bucket.
For Chesapeake and ICW mud we use a modified approach: once we get to 5:1 I back down in the idle detent. The anchor either sets immediately or drags a bit through the mud till it digs down into something thick enough to hold. Once I connect the snubber I only back down enough to address the expected weather conditions. If strong winds are expected I will leave it in idle reverse for five minutes before I add any power. Any sooner and it often just drags through the upper layers of softer mud. On retrieval I often note that the anchor was at least 5 feet below the surface when it finally stopped sinking.
We are on the upper Patomac now and the other day we tried three different spots and scraped accross oyster beds all three times. Anchor didnt even pretend to set. So loud you could hear the scraping noise through the chain. Moved 200 yards and the anchor set immediately in classic Chesapeake mud. I dont blame the Viulcan for that.
Carl, hope this helps.

 

[sunchaser]

SG
1200 RPM, wow. That is a good pull for the Vulcan. But, the beauty of anchoring threads is there normally is no right or wrong, just points between the extremes. Most seem to work.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Mr. Sun,
Thanks for the report.
Idle on both those big Sabres is probably quite a pull. A good well set anchor most likely won’t change it’s oreintation w the winds/breezes we get evening and night in these waters. Until it “blows up”. So your anchor was probably holding the boat oriented backwards. No doubt it takes considerable rode tension to turn an anchor around unless in slimy mud. Just say’in.

Despite my armchair design evaluation comparing the Vulcan to the Boss I like the Vulcan. It looks a lot better than the Boss and re ballasted anchors the worst blow I was ever in was w two other boats. One had a Claw and the other had a CQR. The Claw on a KK42 dragged but the big sailboat put on a stellar performance w his CQR. The sailboat re-anchored during the night and didn’t have dificulties setting either. I suspect he wanted more scope. I don’t think he was dragging. We were hanging on an XYZ so all three of us were using anchors that very few would have picked for the occasion.

It occurs to me that only on fairly rare occasions most of us would want to trade their ballast weight for the equivalant fluke area it would buy. Slimy mud. And in other instances one might want to trade for ballast weight. What would be best for an occasion would probably have all to do w the seabed. Always the biggest variable in anchoring.

If I was looking for an good working anchor and the Vulcan was made by some other manufacturer I’d have it right up there on my list.

Re your post ..
“points between the extremes” says a lot. I like it.

 

[Carl Martin]

Carl,
At the risk of major subject creep, not to mention mail from those who will insist we do this all wrong, I will gladly answer your question as to our procedure. First, in sandy Bahamas: we usually free fall the anchor so I hit the exact spot I am aiming for, since sometimes the sandy spots are small and surronded by weed. The chain stops feeding out when the anchor hits bottom. I use the wind to drift back with the anchor chain being pulled through the windlass. When I get to 5:1 I brake the windlass. The anchor begins to set and the boat stops. If it doesnt, I move. I then hook up my snubber (single line to a bow eye). I then release enough chain to get a loop below the snubber so now at approximately 6:1 if it is a shallow anchorage. I then set the anchor by working slowly up to 1200 RPM. There are many places in the Bahamas where there are a few inches of sand over a hard crust and I have found that the anchor will hold to 1000 RPM with these bottoms but break free at 1100-1200. The shape of the chain at 1200 rpm looks kinda like 40 knots. I then dive on the anchor or use my lookie bucket.
For Chesapeake and ICW mud we use a modified approach: once we get to 5:1 I back down in the idle detent. The anchor either sets immediately or drags a bit through the mud till it digs down into something thick enough to hold. Once I connect the snubber I only back down enough to address the expected weather conditions. If strong winds are expected I will leave it in idle reverse for five minutes before I add any power. Any sooner and it often just drags through the upper layers of softer mud. On retrieval I often note that the anchor was at least 5 feet below the surface when it finally stopped sinking.
We are on the upper Patomac now and the other day we tried three different spots and scraped accross oyster beds all three times. Anchor didnt even pretend to set. So loud you could hear the scraping noise through the chain. Moved 200 yards and the anchor set immediately in classic Chesapeake mud. I dont blame the Viulcan for that.
Carl, hope this helps.

Thanks for the info. Pretty much what we've always done. I'm really looking forward to the Vulcan setting quicker & easier than the CQR. Thanks again.